Player Discussion Nikolay Goldobin Pt. II

[Melvin]

I know, but I'm saying that I think you saying that he's overrated and people don't understand his defects and only see his positives is wrong. I think people are well aware.

Well sort of.

Most people seem to be under the impression that he's a great offensive player who has produced very well but his held back because of poor defensive efforts and the like.

My point is, forget about him being "lazy" or that his defense isn't great or whatever. His offense isn't good enough. Given his usage and icetime, his production is pathetic and buoyed mostly by secondary assists. Five goals and 3 primary assists at 5v5 through 40+ games of play, while playing a purely offensive role and getting a ton of icetime with Elias Pettersson. That is very, very bad. f*** his defense, I don't even care about his defense.

That is why I am saying he's "overrated" because almost all of the narrative has been on whether he plays well enough defensively, whether he back-checks hard enough, etc. and that doesn't even need to be part of the conversation.

 

[PavelBure10]

Poor guy, just trade him already. Let him get on with things, and try to get his career going with someone else.

 

[4Twenty]

Read my first post; I'm not misinterpreting anything. He absolutely must be in the lineup over Schaller and Granlund and they are completely in the wrong to be sitting him for dumb **** like taking penalties.

My only point is that he would get a longer leash if his production was not so poor, and the people bleating "4th on the team in points!" are also off the mark IMO.

They aren't off the mark, because he is actually 4th on the team in points, literally.

 

[Melvin]

They aren't off the mark, because he is actually 4th on the team in points, literally.

They're off the mark in thinking that this means he has produced well.

 

[4Twenty]

They're off the mark in thinking that this means he has produced well.

Well enough. Pettersson performs better with him than without, both in corsi% and GF%.

Anyways, I don't care to debate the merits of 1st vs 2nd assists and neither do you.

 

[Melvin]

Well enough. Pettersson performs better with him than without, both in corsi% and GF%.

Anyways, I don't care to debate the merits of 1st vs 2nd assists and neither do you.

Way too small of a sample to conclude that.

 

[Peen]

They're off the mark in thinking that this means he has produced well.

He has produced well relative to other people being played in his position and most people are aware that he's not a play driver, but rather a capable passenger - at least moreso than others being put in his position.

It's all relative.

 

[Melvin]

He has produced well relative to other people being played in his position and most people are aware that he's not a play driver, but rather a capable passenger - at least moreso than others being put in his position.

It's all relative.

Has he? How are you quantifying this?

As far as I can tell, Leivo has produced just as well when playing with Pettersson + Boeser. To whom are you comparing when looking at this relative production?

 

[Peen]

Has he? How are you quantifying this?

As far as I can tell, Leivo has produced just as well when playing with Pettersson + Boeser. To whom are you comparing when looking at this relative production?

I was just looking at his statistics on corsica.hockey

I can't seem to find statistical output when paired with SPECIFIC players, but you can also view overall production relative to teammates/competition.

Also by eye test and simpler terms, I'd rather have a more capable playmaker in Goldobin than a shooter in Leivo be the third passenger on that line.

 

[4Twenty]

I was just looking at his statistics on corsica.hockey

I can't seem to find statistical output when paired with SPECIFIC players, but you can also view overall production relative to teammates/competition.

Also by eye test and simpler terms, I'd rather have a more capable playmaker in Goldobin than a shooter in Leivo be the third passenger on that line.

Elias Pettersson - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

I find this website easier to use.

It's pretty much a pickem between Leivo and Goldy with Petey, but like you my eye says the same thing, Sven has good numbers there too.

The hard part about the analysis is that role plays a huge part, when EP is with the 3rd D pair he absolutely torches the opposition, but when he's playing tougher minutes (either with Tanev-Edler or Guddy-Hutton) on the ice, his numbers take a huge hit.

Melvin will probably be able to speak to that more.

 

[Regress2TheMeme]

Goldobin is getting a shorter than just about anyone but with his talent level he's got fewer excuses to offer. He just makes bad decisions and seems to think he can fall back on his skill when he doesn't want to give his best effort.

The Canucks need his skill badly and I think some tough love isn't the worst way to turn him into a core piece of this roster. They certainly can't afford to let him go for less than an overpayment. I think they'll give him more time to work through his issues rather than sell low on him.

 

[4Twenty]

Goldobin is getting a shorter than just about anyone but with his talent level he's got fewer excuses to offer. He just makes bad decisions and seems to think he can fall back on his skill when he doesn't want to give his best effort.

The Canucks need his skill badly and I think some tough love isn't the worst way to turn him into a core piece of this roster. They certainly can't afford to let him go for less than an overpayment. I think they'll give him more time to work through his issues rather than sell low on him.

He'll never be a core piece. He just doesn't move the needle enough. The Canucks are highly likely to hit the UFA market for top 6 wingers this summer.

I think he'll either be traded during training camp or will hit the waiver wire before next season starts. Part of the reason I want them to heap him with ice time is so he could potentially return a higher pick, because he won't be on this roster next year.

 

[ChilliBilly]

Just a note. He's also been snake bit this year. He's had about 6 posts and crossbars on great shots ....

 

[Regress2TheMeme]

He'll never be a core piece. He just doesn't move the needle enough. The Canucks are highly likely to hit the UFA market for top 6 wingers this summer.

I think he'll either be traded during training camp or will hit the waiver wire before next season starts. Part of the reason I want them to heap him with ice time is so he could potentially return a higher pick, because he won't be on this roster next year.

If they can get something like a 2nd rounder I'd be okay moving on from Goldobin but any less than that I think he's worth keeping around as a project. He's got a lot of upside and will be cheap until he puts things together. I'm still hoping some of Pettersson will rub off on his defensive game. I have a feeling Pettersson can say a lot with just an icy, disgusted look. Goldobin could be a great fit with Pettersson if you had a horse like Mark Stone on that line.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

If they can get something like a 2nd rounder I'd be okay moving on from Goldobin but any less than that I think he's worth keeping around as a project. He's got a lot of upside and will be cheap until he puts things together. I'm still hoping some of Pettersson will rub off on his defensive game. I have a feeling Pettersson can say a lot with just an icy, disgusted look. Goldobin could be a great fit with Pettersson if you had a horse like Mark Stone on that line.

That could be a possibility...Pettersson takes the defensive details of his game just as seriously as his offensive...

Not a snowballs chance somebody would cough up a 2nd for Goldy, as the situation stands right now.

 

[Bleach Clean]

They're off the mark in thinking that this means he has produced well.

“Well” is relative to what is here. Not well overall.

 

[Regress2TheMeme]

That could be a possibility...Pettersson takes the defensive details of his game just as seriously as his offensive...

Not a snowballs chance somebody would cough up a 2nd for Goldy, as the situation stands right now.

Regardless, he'd be a better project for this team since they're starved for players with puck skills then unloaded for scraps. Skill players need other skill players to play with for that skill to really shine. As long as Goldobin is cheap I'd keep him around and apply the tough love until he gets it or is eclipsed by other players coming up.

 

[Melvin]

“Well” is relative to what is here. Not well overall.

Relative to a replacement level player I would argue he has performed at par.

 

[rocketchu]

If they can get something like a 2nd rounder I'd be okay moving on from Goldobin but any less than that I think he's worth keeping around as a project. He's got a lot of upside and will be cheap until he puts things together. I'm still hoping some of Pettersson will rub off on his defensive game. I have a feeling Pettersson can say a lot with just an icy, disgusted look. Goldobin could be a great fit with Pettersson if you had a horse like Mark Stone on that line.

There is no chance that they could get a 2nd rounder for him. I doubt that they could get a 5th rounder as guys like 77 (late first round "offensive" players who don't really produce) are a dime a dozen and often clear waivers. Again, it is not his defence that is the problem. He simply is not dangerous and does not create danger.

 

[Intangibos]

Way too small of a sample to conclude that.

Shouldn't this go both ways? Shouldn't we allow him to get a bigger sample size?

Just a note. He's also been snake bit this year. He's had about 6 posts and crossbars on great shots ....

He's also been absolutely robbed a few times.

Is Glenn "Puck Touches" Healy posting here? We heard for years about how Burrows is nothing without the Sedins, which while untrue they certainly elevated his play, but he elevated theirs as well.

Is it really so hard to believe that maybe Goldobin and Pettersson work well together in the offensive zone? Is it impossible to think that maybe Goldobin's secondary assists sometimes come off the back of drawing defenders to him before the puck gets moved to the blueline and then Pettersson? Is it not possible that he's snakebit?

He might never solidify himself as a top 6 forward, but he's in his first NHL season as our 4th leading scorer and he's being run out of town, and he's not blocking another prospect from entering the lineup. Ridiculous.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Relative to a replacement level player I would argue he has performed at par.

What are your criteria? I'd like to see your threshold for this.

Also, who on the roster is at or below replacement level per the same criteria?

 

[Canucks1096]

There is no chance that they could get a 2nd rounder for him. I doubt that they could get a 5th rounder as guys like 77 (late first round "offensive" players who don't really produce) are a dime a dozen and often clear waivers. Again, it is not his defence that is the problem. He simply is not dangerous and does not create danger.

What do you mean he doesn't really produce? He has been on pace for 40 to 50 points for the most part of this season. The Last 80 games going back to last season he has 37 points

Last season there were about 160 forwards that had 40 plus points. On average thats 5 or 6 per a team. A 40 point scorer is not a dime of dozen.

 

[rocketchu]

What do you mean he doesn't really produce? He has been on pace for 40 to 50 points for the most part of this season. The Last 80 games going back to last season he has 37 points

Last season there were about 160 forwards that had 40 plus points. On average thats 5 or 6 per a team. A 40 point scorer is not a dime of dozen.

I think he has zero points in games that EP has not played in and would likely be a 20 point guy, at most, without him unless he was a PP1 fixture.

Last year when the Canucks passed on Jake Wise, I read quotes from scouts saying that he had put up plenty of points but that they were "soft" points. I was pretty sure I knew what they meant but after watching 77 this year I am now certain that I know. Lots of secondary assists, including a few where he last touched the puck in his own end, with a good % of his points on the PP.

37 points over 80 games, with ample PP time, is not really impressive for a guy that has no other useful elements to his game. Maybe if he was doing that without EP it would be an interesting discussion but we all know that he could not do that without EP.

I think what people really like is the concept of 77. A highly skilled offensive player, with lots of flair, who has some holes in his game and may never be a "complete" player. I actually am a fan of that concept as well but just don't think 77 is really that guy as he is ultimately not that skilled. No worries that some see him differently, and I find the rare optimism over a player that Benning traded for very refreshing, but I just don't see it at all and don't expect him to be in the league in 2 years.

 

[Canucks1096]

I think he has zero points in games that EP has not played in and would likely be a 20 point guy, at most, without him unless he was a PP1 fixture.

Last year when the Canucks passed on Jake Wise, I read quotes from scouts saying that he had put up plenty of points but that they were "soft" points. I was pretty sure I knew what they meant but after watching 77 this year I am now certain that I know. Lots of secondary assists, including a few where he last touched the puck in his own end, with a good % of his points on the PP.

37 points over 80 games, with ample PP time, is not really impressive for a guy that has no other useful elements to his game. Maybe if he was doing that without EP it would be an interesting discussion but we all know that he could not do that without EP.

I think what people really like is the concept of 77. A highly skilled offensive player, with lots of flair, who has some holes in his game and may never be a "complete" player. I actually am a fan of that concept as well but just don't think 77 is really that guy as he is ultimately not that skilled. No worries that some see him differently, and I find the rare optimism over a player that Benning traded for very refreshing, but I just don't see it at all and don't expect him to be in the league in 2 years.

You are right about Goldobin He does have 0 points in games Petey didn't play in but he does have 9 points in total without Petey on the goal.

He on was pace for 30 points last year. He definitely can get more than 20 points if he played with another center.

37 P might not be impressive but that is close to low end second line production. The other element to his game he is not a liability on the ice. The team is not getting outplayed when he is on the ice.

Yes Goldobin is getting a lot of points because of Petey. The thing is he does have the skill and hockey IQ to get those points with Petey. Why are we discrediting his point totals? You can't just plug anyone with Petey and expect the same results. Look at Virtanen, He had some stretches with Pettersson, he can't even get a secondary assist with him because he doesn't think the game at high a level like Goldobin. Playing with a Superstar, you don't get free points playing with them. You need to know where to go on ice and make quick decision with the puck. Pits before Kunitz they try a lot different wingers with Crosby a lot of them didn't worked out. The greatest hockey player of all time Gretzky retire early because he didn't have any wingers to play with.

Goldobin had 7 ppg. He has 23 P this year. Can tell a specific point like in what game he he got that you thought it was soft? Not all secondary assists are soft.

 

[Canucks1096]

I want to find out how many ESP Goldobin played with Pettersson?

What website has that info?