Player Discussion Nikolay Goldobin Pt. II

[mossey3535]

Well, Green is coaching like a second-year-ever NHL coach, that's for sure. And I like him overall. But he definitely doesn't break the "inordinate love for ineffectual veterans" mould.

Maybe sometimes the GM does need to tell the coach how to coach. It's not like this coach is so highly successful that he couldn't improve in massive ways.

Re goldy, it comes back to that double standard. He's learned to backcheck and tries hard. Despite "not accomplishing much", he is still 4th in team scoring. I don't know what more we expect from a young player. It's hugely hypocritical.

What if we held Schaller or Roussel to the same standard? As much as I love Brock, he's been coasting most of the year, and we can't blame health issues for that in the last 15 games or so.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Well, Green is coaching like a second-year-ever NHL coach, that's for sure. And I like him overall. But he definitely doesn't break the "inordinate love for ineffectual veterans" mould.

Maybe sometimes the GM does need to tell the coach how to coach. It's not like this coach is so highly successful that he couldn't improve in massive ways.

Re goldy, it comes back to that double standard. He's learned to backcheck and tries hard. Despite "not accomplishing much", he is still 4th in team scoring. I don't know what more we expect from a young player. It's hugely hypocritical.

What if we held Schaller or Roussel to the same standard? As much as I love Brock, he's been coasting most of the year, and we can't blame health issues for that in the last 15 games or so.

It's definitely a mark against Green. I see similarities between him and WD in their deference to favourites over whipping boys. It can seem hypocritical for sure.

Interesting insight from Ferraro on this: He mentions that if Goldobin was red hot offensively, that his little miscues wouldn't matter as much. It's because Goldobin is caught between his natural offensive instincts and his defensive responsibility that he's become lost. Two masters, and he's not serving either.

What I take from it is that Goldobin should, effectively, ignore his coach... He should unleash anything and everything he has offensively so that the coach is put to a decision: Unshackle him completely or understand that you are scratching a prime offensive talent. Right now, Green is scratching just a decent-good offensive talent. As a result, he keeps looking at the leaks in Goldy's game. Goldy has to make Green look at his talent first.

Anyway...

 

[Jay Cee]

It's definitely a mark against Green. I see similarities between him and WD in their deference to favourites over whipping boys. It can seem hypocritical for sure.

Interesting insight from Ferraro on this: He mentions that if Goldobin was red hot offensively, that his little miscues wouldn't matter as much. It's because Goldobin is caught between his natural offensive instincts and his defensive responsibility that he's become lost. Two masters, and he's not serving either.

What I take from it is that Goldobin should, effectively, ignore his coach... He should unleash anything and everything he has offensively so that the coach is put to a decision: Unshackle him completely or understand that you are scratching a prime offensive talent. Right now, Green is scratching just a decent-good offensive talent. As a result, he keeps looking at the leaks in Goldy's game. Goldy has to make Green look at his talent first.

Anyway...

Isn't that the same for every coach good and bad ever to have favorites that no one seems to understand? Also, isn't it weird that most good coaches seem to favor weird old vets as opposed to some younger players?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Isn't that the same for every coach good and bad ever to have favorites that no one seems to understand? Also, isn't it weird that most good coaches seem to favor weird old vets as opposed to some younger players?

I wouldn't say "most" or "every" in either statement. While it's true that it's not unique to Green to do this, it's also true that it is not seen in a positive light. It is seen, sometimes, as being hypocritical.

I would say that one key distinction between a good/great coach and someone that is just average or below par, is a resistance to completely succumb to these failings. Babcock was once like this in ANA, I would say. Trotz has grown to allow this over time. Bowman was great at this, once upon a time. Etc... I suppose it just makes Green seem not great/good, if anything.

 

[Jay Cee]

See I think AV right off the top of my head as a great coach who is steadfast in his beliefs about a player and is completely unwilling to budge.

Torterella is a good coach who I can think of who would give young players a chance from time to time but he is just an insane example. He is just as prone to turning on one of his better players as he is for any particular trait. He seems like he gets success from capturing lightning in a bottle from time to time and somehow manages to keep his head above water while slashing and burning his way to wins.

 

[Bleach Clean]

See I think AV right off the top of my head as a great coach who is steadfast in his beliefs about a player and is completely unwilling to budge.

Torterella is a good coach who I can think of who would give young players a chance from time to time but he is just an insane example. He is just as prone to turning on one of his better players as he is for any particular trait. He seems like he gets success from capturing lightning in a bottle from time to time and somehow manages to keep his head above water while slashing and burning his way to wins.

I hear you on AV and Torts. Fair point. I guess I will just leave it at: I don't this is a good look for a good/great coach. It's a limitation. Do some good/great coaches do it? Absolutely. Still, they do it when they don't need to do it.

Bringing this back to Goldobin: It's up to him to game the system right now. He should recognize that his coach is unforgiving at this point. As a result, Goldobin can either put everything he has into defense or offense. I hope he goes with offense. Forget what Green thinks and play your best game possible. Let the chips fall where they may.

 

[BerSTUzzi]

Schaller does what again?

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Schaller does what again?

Prevents Goldobin for entering the lineup. Important job.

 

[mossey3535]

It's definitely a mark against Green. I see similarities between him and WD in their deference to favourites over whipping boys. It can seem hypocritical for sure.

Interesting insight from Ferraro on this: He mentions that if Goldobin was red hot offensively, that his little miscues wouldn't matter as much. It's because Goldobin is caught between his natural offensive instincts and his defensive responsibility that he's become lost. Two masters, and he's not serving either.

What I take from it is that Goldobin should, effectively, ignore his coach... He should unleash anything and everything he has offensively so that the coach is put to a decision: Unshackle him completely or understand that you are scratching a prime offensive talent. Right now, Green is scratching just a decent-good offensive talent. As a result, he keeps looking at the leaks in Goldy's game. Goldy has to make Green look at his talent first.

Anyway...

I think that's effectively what Hutton has done this season, which he started at the end of last season. I think he even said as much - he was going to play his game and whatever happened happened. Luckily we had injuries that allowed that.

 

[BerSTUzzi]

Prevents Goldobin for entering the lineup. Important job.

That and getting on the forecheck late, passing to skates and shooting at crests.

 

[Cupless44]

Schaller does what again?

Exactly.

It would be fine to listen to all the Goldy talk of why he is being benched, all the tough love stuff from this coach of a team that struggles to score most nights wasn’t benching him for a totally useless hockey player who has not done a thing all season long.

Schaller should not even be in the NHL. So instead you are destroying a young players confidence by benching him any time he makes a mistake and ruining any trade value he has.

If we are going to call a spade a spade, Boeser’s effort level on defensive play has been brutal of late.

 

[rocketchu]

Schaller is rather useless and there are several ways of looking at his inclusion over 77. The first way, which Goldobin believers should hope is the case, is that the team still believes that he will be part of the solution with this being a motivation technique in an attempt to get 77 more engaged (including with respect to off season training) with an eye to making him a better player long term. A second way to look at it, which may be more realistic, is that the coach has concluded that at least Schaller is not going to hurt you even if he adds little or nothing so he is a better option than 77.

In terms of the Boeser point, I think you are exactly right but to me that simply highlights the real issue with Goldobin which I have finally heard some in the media address. That issue is that Goldobin has not been good offensively and rarely, if ever, looks dangerous. The "200 foot game" talk is largely a red herring and would only be something that came up after particularly egregious errors if he was generating actual chances. (Please don't bring up that he is supposedly leading the team in primary shot assists, which I suspect is no longer accurate and simply reflects the fact he has played with EP 40 in any event.)

I know that people love the concept of 77 (highly skilled offensive forward, with some holes in his game, like Ho Sang), as do I, but I don't think he is really that guy. Leivo actually has more "skill" in my view, although both have a lack of quickness and a limited motor which reduces effectiveness, although we don't hear much about him as a "talented" offensive player. Whether that is because he is older, not a Russian, or does not have a great smile like 77 we will never know.

 

[Cupless44]

Schaller is rather useless and there are several ways of looking at his inclusion over 77. The first way, which Goldobin believers should hope is the case, is that the team still believes that he will be part of the solution with this being a motivation technique in an attempt to get 77 more engaged (including with respect to off season training) with an eye to making him a better player long term. A second way to look at it, which may be more realistic, is that the coach has concluded that at least Schaller is not going to hurt you even if he adds little or nothing so he is a better option than 77.

In terms of the Boeser point, I think you are exactly right but to me that simply highlights the real issue with Goldobin which I have finally heard some in the media address. That issue is that Goldobin has not been good offensively and rarely, if ever, looks dangerous. The "200 foot game" talk is largely a red herring and would only be something that came up after particularly egregious errors if he was generating actual chances. (Please don't bring up that he is supposedly leading the team in primary shot assists, which I suspect is no longer accurate and simply reflects the fact he has played with EP 40 in any event.)

I know that people love the concept of 77 (highly skilled offensive forward, with some holes in his game, like Ho Sang), as do I, but I don't think he is really that guy. Leivo actually has more "skill" in my view, although both have a lack of quickness and a limited motor which reduces effectiveness, although we don't hear much about him as a "talented" offensive player. Whether that is because he is older, not a Russian, or does not have a great smile like 77 we will never know.

I think you are right.

Botch has been saying it is not his defensive game Goldy needs to work on, it his his shot. If Goldy was scoring more goals he would be in the line up even if his defensive play was lacking. Not all scorers play well defensively ...see Boeser.

But there is still no excuse for Schaller playing. No offence, no physical play, no nothing. Gaunce or MacEwen would be better right now. Chalk it up to another really bad Benning UFA signing and move on.

 

[rocketchu]

I think you are right.

Botch has been saying it is not his defensive game Goldy needs to work on, it his his shot. If Goldy was scoring more goals he would be in the line up even if his defensive play was lacking. Not all scorers play well defensively ...see Boeser.

But there is still no excuse for Schaller playing. No offence, no physical play, no nothing. Gaunce or MacEwen would be better right now. Chalk it up to another really bad Benning UFA signing and move on.

Schaller is rather shocking in his ineptitude but at only 2 years, and for less than league average, I don't think he gets to the same level of bad UFA signings as some of the others!

 

[Cupless44]

Schaller is rather shocking in his ineptitude but at only 2 years, and for less than league average, I don't think he gets to the same level of bad UFA signings as some of the others!

1.9 million is over paid when you look at better 4th liners for 900 or a mil.

 

[rocketchu]

1.9 million is over paid when you look at better 4th liners for 900 or a mil.

Sure, but not on the same level as other bad signings he has made although the objective is obviously to make good signings and not just ones that are not as bad as others you have done!

 

[BROCK HUGHES]

I think you are right.

Botch has been saying it is not his defensive game Goldy needs to work on, it his his shot. If Goldy was scoring more goals he would be in the line up even if his defensive play was lacking. Not all scorers play well defensively ...see Boeser.

But there is still no excuse for Schaller playing. No offence, no physical play, no nothing. Gaunce or MacEwen would be better right now. Chalk it up to another really bad Benning UFA signing and move on.

Just trade him for picks if we have to.Tired of the Green treatment of him.while others get a free pass...its sad that this kid on another team is going to do well...

 

[I am toxic]

Might as well buy Goldy tix to Boston and end this now

 

[Bleach Clean]

Might as well buy Goldy tix to Boston and end this now

For Heinen?

 

[Foundational Player]

Schaller does what again?

“Tim adds size to our forward group and can play throughout our line-up,” said GM Jim Benning. “He’s responsible defensively and last year showed he can make regular offensive contributions as well. We’re excited to welcome him to the Vancouver Canucks.”

 

[BerSTUzzi]

“Tim adds size to our forward group and can play throughout our line-up,” said GM Jim Benning. “He’s responsible defensively and last year showed he can make regular offensive contributions as well. We’re excited to welcome him to the Vancouver Canucks.”

So accurate

 

[Hit the post]

So accurate

Well, he's a forward. He got that part right.

 

[BROCK HUGHES]

I'm sure sitting out Goldy is really helping his development.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I'm sure sitting out Goldy is really helping his development.

It certainly isn't hurting the team, we're winning without him...(after that lazy hooking penalty in the 3rd against Florida,which got the opposition the tying goal..I'm sure Green had seen enough)

 

[BROCK HUGHES]

It certainly isn't hurting the team, we're winning without him...(after that lazy hooking penalty in the 3rd against Florida,which got the opposition the tying goal..I'm sure Green had seen enough)

Yeah I'm pretty sure Green is fed up with Goldy as Goldy is with him.....how about all the crap that Pouliot gets away with and Guddy...don't see them sitting and eating popcorn from the press box . Just feel bad for the kid.Because when he gets it all together..it will be on another team...