Player Discussion Nikolay Goldobin Pt. II

[PuckMunchkin]

Chicken or egg?

Are they being provided talent?

The Canucks have historically been one of the worst drafting and development teams for eons.

Guys that show they can play, get to play. Goldobin is an example of one of those players (had to come from a different organization).

I have no problems questioning Utica, but I think it's more important to find out why these Canucks prospects suck. The ones who are passable play, Dahlen, Jasek and Juolevi as examples this season. McEwan, Sautner, Chatfield and Brisebois played last year.

Problem is they sent down a bunch of kids who aren't good enough.

Jake Virtanen is the only one I can think of who is on the roster currently who spent significant time in Utica.

I dont think it is just a drafting issue. The players who go there dont develop. Dont get better.

 

[4Twenty]

Jake Virtanen is the only one I can think of who is on the roster currently who spent significant time in Utica.

I dont think it is just a drafting issue. The players who go there dont develop. Dont get better.

I don't know how you can look at the laundry list of crap players Utica has been handed from the Canucks and think it isn't a talent issue.

It's not like guys like Jordan Subban move to other organizations and blossom.

If you'd like we can continue discussing this in the Comets thread, I'll gladly do that.

I will just add that guys like Goldobin, Baertschi, Markstrom have gone there and thrived. Difference with those 3 is that they were drafted by other organizations. I'd be very interested to read the list of players that Utica has ruined.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Agreed with those saying if we trade Goldy then we're just making another hole to fill. Unless we have a plan to get a top 6 LW, there's not much of a point dealing him.

 

[Fire Benning]

He had a strong start to the season but started to fade as the he got bigger opportunities. I don't see him as part of the top six of this team in the long term, but I also don't really see the point of trading him when the result is Green feeding even more minutes to one of his pets for who knows how long.

At some point there should be a better player in the system who can knock Goldobin out of his current spot, if we currently had a player in Utica primed to be playing offensive minutes as a top six forward in the NHL then it would be more justifiable to move on from him, right now that guy doesn't exist though, so he's a fine placeholder until that day comes.

 

[bossram]

Do you really think he did well with EP? Most of his points were secondary assists and I think anyone watching would say it was EP driving the bus. Again, I really think his problem is that he does not generate much offensively and has limited skills other than decent vision/patience when he has time and space. If he was creating chances and looking dangerous, he would be cut far more slack by TG for occasional defensive issues.

He is first on the team in primary shot contributions per 60 (shots and shot assists). So yes, he actually is creating offense.

Goldy definitely does have defensive issues. But on a team bereft of any semblance of offensive talent, I don't see how you can sit him. He was also doing quite well with Bo at the end of last season too.

 

[Oliewud]

He makes some of the worst passes in the offensive zone sometimes. I don't care about his defensive deficiencies because he's definitely been trying harder but when I see him screw up offensively so often what's the point of keeping him around?

 

[tantalum]

I still think he’s out of North America in the next 12-18 months. And I do understand why Green has an issue with him and why he’ll be eating popcorn again. And for most teams I’d be completely on board with benching him. That said, given where the team is they should be playing him and really trying to mold him into something the last 30ish games of the year even if it’s just to get a mid-round pick heading into the draft.

 

[Canucks1096]

He makes some of the worst passes in the offensive zone sometimes. I don't care about his defensive deficiencies because he's definitely been trying harder but when I see him screw up offensively so often what's the point of keeping him around?

He does have 18 assists. On pace for around 30 assists. He definitely make more good passes than bad ones. His defensive deficiencies is just a mythe. There is no stats indicates that he is bad defensively

 

[rocketchu]

He is first on the team in primary shot contributions per 60 (shots and shot assists). So yes, he actually is creating offense.

Goldy definitely does have defensive issues. But on a team bereft of any semblance of offensive talent, I don't see how you can sit him. He was also doing quite well with Bo at the end of last season too.

I just don't see the offence that he generates. I couldn't really care less about his "defence" but I just don't think he creates enough offence for a guy who does nothing else. I would love to see his primary shot contribution numbers when not playing with EP

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

He does have 18 assists. On pace for around 30 assists. He definitely make more good passes than bad ones. His defensive deficiencies is just a mythe. There is no stats indicates that he is bad defensively

He’s the second best passer on the team IMO. We don’t have much skill up front after EP, Boeser, Horvat and maybe Baertchi; keeping Goldy around isn’t a bad thing. He’s only 23, has high potential and may turn the corner. He’s skilled with good hockey IQ, just needs to start hustling. Would be a solid player if he cranked up the intensity.

 

[Dab]

Chicken or egg?

Are they being provided talent?

The Canucks have historically been one of the worst drafting and development teams for eons.

Guys that show they can play, get to play. Goldobin is an example of one of those players (had to come from a different organization).

I have no problems questioning Utica, but I think it's more important to find out why these Canucks prospects suck. The ones who are passable play, Dahlen, Jasek and Juolevi as examples this season. McEwan, Sautner, Chatfield and Brisebois played last year.

Problem is they sent down a bunch of kids who aren't good enough.

Crap in crap out- the classic quote about data and databases applies here.

Part of me wonders if having the farm team on the other side of the continent takes pressure off management- no heat from local fans that wouldn’t tolerate what’s happening in Utica if the team played in Vancouver.

 

[4Twenty]

Crap in crap out- the classic quote about data and databases applies here.

Part of me wonders if having the farm team on the other side of the continent takes pressure off management- no heat from local fans that wouldn’t tolerate what’s happening in Utica if the team played in Vancouver.

Local fans would probably understand how off the pace some of these "prospects" look though.

 

[Dab]

Local fans would probably understand how off the pace some of these "prospects" look though.

Sure, absolutely- and apply the aporpriate amount of pressure to the team, ownership and especially management. Could you imagine the pitchforks that’d be out for Benning if this Comets season played out on the Rink at Renfrew? The media and fans would be all over this management team. In my opinion management loves having the team in Utica- no pressure.

 

[Fire Benning]

Seems like his time as a Canuck is coming to a close, good chance he doesn’t make it past the deadline. RFA after this season and it doesn’t seem like they’re keen on keeping him, all the media mouthpieces have been trashing him, the coach clearly doesn’t like him etc.

I predict he’ll get dealt for a similar player who’s struggling to make it and their team is ready to move on from. It’ll be a “swapping our problems” sort of trade.

 

[iceburg]

Gaunce has great defensive instincts - can't stay in the line-up because he lacks intensity more than anything else.

Goldobin has great offensive instincts - can't stay in the line-up because he lacks intensity.

I think blaming this on Goldobin's defensive play is a red herring. He needs to find a way to play with more urgency. He has the skill.

 

[BROCK HUGHES]

Looks like he is eating popcorn tonight from the press box...

 

[Snatcher Demko]

Gaunce has great defensive instincts - can't stay in the line-up because he lacks intensity more than anything else.

Goldobin has great offensive instincts - can't stay in the line-up because he lacks intensity.

I think blaming this on Goldobin's defensive play is a red herring. He needs to find a way to play with more urgency. He has the skill.

This is a good point. If Green sees you standing around you'll get punished for it. Not that I necessarily agree with that, considering how ineffective some other 'veteran' Canucks have been.

 

[Cupless44]

Looks like he is eating popcorn tonight from the press box...

Yup have to get Tim Schaller in!

 

[tantalum]

Gaunce has great defensive instincts - can't stay in the line-up because he lacks intensity more than anything else.

Goldobin has great offensive instincts - can't stay in the line-up because he lacks intensity.

I think blaming this on Goldobin's defensive play is a red herring. He needs to find a way to play with more urgency. He has the skill.

I still don't think it's really a lack of urgency in Goldobin's game. Sure we can point to him coasting the other game and taking the penalty but by and large I think he consistently tries (this was opposite to issues Baertschi had maybe still has). The problem really is he doesn't seem to get much done with his trying. It's not necessarily bad plays you can point to and say "Aha!" either, it seems like he just consistently fails to make the best or better play.

Now despite that, I think I've been consistent in saying that I would still be playing him. Certainly over guys like Schaller, Granlund etc. given what I think the team should be doing to build for the future. But my thoughts on that are clearly not aligned with the expectations of management and the coaching staff. Make no mistake they are trying to make the playoffs and from that angle I understand the benching.

 

[iceburg]

I still don't think it's really a lack of urgency in Goldobin's game. Sure we can point to him coasting the other game and taking the penalty but by and large I think he consistently tries (this was opposite to issues Baertschi had maybe still has). The problem really is he doesn't seem to get much done with his trying. It's not necessarily bad plays you can point to and say "Aha!" either, it seems like he just consistently fails to make the best or better play.

Now despite that, I think I've been consistent in saying that I would still be playing him. Certainly over guys like Schaller, Granlund etc. given what I think the team should be doing to build for the future. But my thoughts on that are clearly not aligned with the expectations of management and the coaching staff. Make no mistake they are trying to make the playoffs and from that angle I understand the benching.

I still see this as lacking intensity (maybe not the best word). I don't see it as "intentional lack of intensity" if that makes sense. It seems like a mental thing with him. I think he cares and wants to do well - I don't see him having an attitude issue. It might be a little lack of confidence. It might be a lack of understanding what it actually takes to perform at that elite level. Some guys have it naturally or acquire it very young (Crosby) but most players have to work at it as they mature as players. I remember how frustrating it was to watch the Sedins when they first entered the league. When Gillis came in he even questioned whether the could be the leaders on the team - and that was several years into their careers. Now we look back at them as models of preparation and fitness, maximizing the gifts they were given.

 

[VanJack]

To me, we're almost at the point where Green and Goldy have reached a fork in the road. And likely headed in opposite directions.

Green insists he still 'likes' Goldy as a hockey player. But can't see this player ever being diligent enough on the other side of puck to get out of the coach's perpetual doghouse.

I think a shakeup is coming in the Canucks forward group and Goldy might be a throw-in, as part of a larger transaction.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Just going to put this out there ahead of time so my criticism is not confused with needless Benning bashing:

If the Canucks keep scratching Goldobin and then trade him in the short term, I am going to pan the trade. Why? Because it’s the absolute worst time to trade him. Fair?

If they are going to trade him, play him regularly and then see if someone bites at the deadline or offseason. Do not trade him when you are not playing him.

Fair warning.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Just going to put this out there ahead of time so my criticism is not confused with needless Benning bashing:

If the Canucks keep scratching Goldobin and then trade him in the short term, I am going to pan the trade. Why? Because it’s the absolute worst time to trade him. Fair?

If they are going to trade him, play him regularly and then see if someone bites at the deadline or offseason. Do not trade him when you are not playing him.

Fair warning.

Well then you have a GM telling his coach how to coach. Not ideal

 

[Bleach Clean]

Well then you have a GM telling his coach how to coach. Not ideal

No, I'm saying don't deal him until he plays. Sooner or later, the coach is going to give him another shot. Move him after a few games then.

This is not telling Green how to coach. It's working around Green's coaching in order to maximize (as much as one can) the asset value of an exiting player.

 

[DonnyNucker]

No, I'm saying don't deal him until he plays. Sooner or later, the coach is going to give him another shot. Move him after a few games then.

This is not telling Green how to coach. It's working around Green's coaching in order to maximize (as much as one can) the asset value of an exiting player.

Oh yes I agree...I highly doubt he has much value unfortunately. Maybe they should just keep him for another season