Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part IX

[JianYang]

I don't think Suzuki has the same output potential, but I sort of get reminded of Niklas backstrom.

 

[Habs Icing]

Danault is not a future HOFer, Danault isnt even close to these guys defensively.

Hes closer to what Samuel Pahlsson was, and how many minutes did he play ?

Hint: not 25 minutes a night.

Maybe not Gainey but I saw Carbonneau play. I'd put Danault in his tier.

 

[Mrb1p]

Maybe not Gainey but I saw Carbonneau play. I'd put Danault in his tier.

Carbo was a much better offensive player and on top of that, he was better defensively. Theres no contest for me, and its fine as these two are some of the very best all-time. Danault isnt even a top 5 C in this league.

Carbo was at the very top for 10 years. 3 selkes, top 5 in selke votes for 8 years in a row. Its not really close, man.

Danault isnt even better defensively than Plekanec was...maybe we should start there.

 

[Habs Icing]

Carbo was a much better offensive player and on top of that, he was better defensively. Theres no contest for me, and its fine as these two are some of the very best all-time. Danault isnt even a top 5 C in this league.

Carbo was at the very top for 10 years. 3 selkes, top 5 in selke votes for 8 years in a row. Its not really close, man.

Danault isnt even better defensively than Plekanec was...maybe we should start there.

I guess we'll disagree.

 

[Mrb1p]

I guess we'll disagree.

This is delusional brother. Anyone who thinks Carbo and Danault should be mentionned in the same breath is out to lunch. One is in GOAT territory defensively while the others best selke finish is top 7. Come on. Its akin to saying Gally is close to Richer in goalscoring.

Why wasnt Plekanec getting that hype when he was shutting down Crosbys and Ovis in their prime while actually producing?

The media can alter the views of people so easily its crazy.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Maybe not Gainey but I saw Carbonneau play. I'd put Danault in his tier.

So Danault’s a Hall of Fame quality player now?
That’s Carbo’s tier.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Man I'd be drooling over him if he was average defensively but man his reads are great. Not quite Markov like but in that kind of wheelhouse.

I don't know how essential it is he gets faster but I would definitely welcome it. Very intersting to see how he pans out.

 

[crosbyshow]

Carbo was a much better offensive player and on top of that, he was better defensively. Theres no contest for me, and its fine as these two are some of the very best all-time. Danault isnt even a top 5 C in this league.

Carbo was at the very top for 10 years. 3 selkes, top 5 in selke votes for 8 years in a row. Its not really close, man.

Danault isnt even better defensively than Plekanec was...maybe we should start there.

I agree with you. Carbo was and still the best in history for blocking shots. His timing was perfect.

However in this era, there was not many players who were excellent in all 3 zones. There was not the type of players like Barkov..Kopitar..Bergeron etc.

It is a lot toucher now for a player like Danault To win the Selke.

But yes...I am 45 years old..and Carbo was something else.

Danault is getting better and better defensively. Crosby is si good on face off ..and Danault dominated him

 

[Habs Icing]

This is delusional brother. Anyone who thinks Carbo and Danault should be mentionned in the same breath is out to lunch. One is in GOAT territory defensively while the others best selke finish is top 7. Come on. Its akin to saying Gally is close to Richer in goalscoring.

Why wasnt Plekanec getting that hype when he was shutting down Crosbys and Ovis in their prime while actually producing?

The media can alter the views of people so easily its crazy.

I don't watch or listen to the Francophone media so I don't know what you're referring to. If you think I'm biased towards Franco players than why was I one of the few to rail and rant against the Drouin trade?

Carbonneau played for the most part on excellent teams. His role was strictly defined. Danault has played on a mess of a team his whole tenure here. He had to play different roles. Game in and game out he has played against the opposing teams best lines and he has done it without a Gainey riding shotgun.

You told another poster to stop with the veiled insults. Well, at least your insults are not veiled. How about you stick with the points and keep your insults for when you argue face to face? That'll show some semblance of character on your part.

 

[Mrb1p]

I agree with you. Carbo was and still the best in history for blocking shots. His timing was perfect.

However in this era, there was not many players who were excellent in all 3 zones. There was not the type of players like Barkov..Kopitar..Bergeron etc.

It is a lot toucher now for a player like Danault To win the Selke.

But yes...I am 45 years old..and Carbo was something else.

Danault is getting better and better defensively. Crosby is si good on face off ..and Danault dominated him

This is getting really OT but Yzerman comes to mind as a Bergeron and Fedorov type.

 

[Mrb1p]

I don't watch or listen to the Francophone media so I don't know what you're referring to.

Carbonneau played for the most part on excellent teams. His role was strictly defined. Danault has played on a mess of a team his whole tenure here. He had to play different roles. Game in and game out he has played against the opposing teams best lines and he has done it without a Gainey riding shotgun.

You told another poster to stop with the veiled insults. Well, at least your insults are not veiled. How about you stick with the points and keep your insults for when you argue face to face? That'll show some semblance of character on your part.

I didnt mean to insult you, truly sorry if it came out this way.

Getting OT anyway, moving on.

 

[V13]

This is delusional brother. Anyone who thinks Carbo and Danault should be mentionned in the same breath is out to lunch. One is in GOAT territory defensively while the others best selke finish is top 7. Come on. Its akin to saying Gally is close to Richer in goalscoring.

Why wasnt Plekanec getting that hype when he was shutting down Crosbys and Ovis in their prime while actually producing?

The media can alter the views of people so easily its crazy.

Agreed. I like Danault but he's not in the Carbo , Gainey etc tier. Hell i don't even think he's in the Lethinen , Bergeron etc tier

If we're talking stricly about defense i think he's more in the Sami Pahlsson , Ryan Kesler etc tier

 

[Frozenice]

There were no better options until Suzuki broke out. Thats why the bellyaching over Phil was so strange to me - he is a shutdown 55 point C, and for a long time the best C we had.

If you look at game logs, his ice time started to diminish the last 10 games of the season. It’s pretty clear that Julien was slowly working Suzuki into a position where he could take on more responsibility.

Good coaching IMO and it’s bearing fruit right now. The days of Phil playing more ES minutes then guys like Suzuki and KK are numbered, I am expecting all three centres to play similar time at ES.

The truth. The Danault haters can stay in their alternate universe for all I care. I’m glad CJ gave Suzuki and KK playing time against weaker opposition.

 

[MakeTheGoalsLarger]

This is delusional brother. Anyone who thinks Carbo and Danault should be mentionned in the same breath is out to lunch. One is in GOAT territory defensively while the others best selke finish is top 7. Come on. Its akin to saying Gally is close to Richer in goalscoring.

Why wasnt Plekanec getting that hype when he was shutting down Crosbys and Ovis in their prime while actually producing?

The media can alter the views of people so easily its crazy.

Back in Carbonneau's days the FS trophy was awarded based on defense, not some arbitrary mix of good defense and offense like now. Go look at the FS ranking from last year. You'll see that the 6 players above Danault all had WAY more pts than him. I'm thinking the voters held Danault's defensive play in high regard.

 

[le_sean]

Agreed. I like Danault but he's not in the Carbo , Gainey etc tier. Hell i don't even think he's in the Lethinen , Bergeron etc tier

If we're talking stricly about defense i think he's more in the Sami Pahlsson , Ryan Kesler etc tier

Pahlsson. That’s a great blast from the past. Him, Moen and Rob Niedermayer were huge for the Ducks Cup win.

But I disagree about Lehtinen, I think he himself is in that Carbo/Gainey tier.

 

[japhi]

Carbo was incredible to watch, very cerebral. And much more skilled offensively.

Danault relies on hustle and speed to break up plays. Almost always makes the right play in his own end and is a monster in the d zone corner. Guy wins most battles. Love him, if you like defensive hockey it is fun to watch him break up plays.

Suzuki I think has some of that Carbo magic defensively. Doesn’t scramble or chase, is in the right place. I’m hoping we have Pleks defensively and Kovalev in the o zone. A man can dream.

 

[japhi]

Debatable...

Suzuki "broke out" because he was given the opportunity basically out of necessity. The coach needed another C he could rely on, it wasn't gonna be Kotkaniemi or Domi and the team traded Thompson, who was the other center CJ relied on this year in support of Danault when he was a Hab.

Who knows where this team would be had this approach came to fruition earlier in the year.


Yeah he had hit that bogus (IMO) "rookie wall".


Hopefully

Not much interested in a back and forth on this, because it doesn’t really matter to me, but you have the timelines off on Suzuki’s usage.

Ten games in his TOI started to increase, by November he was playing 17, and from then on in he had multiple games into 20 mins. At 21 as a rook by midseason he was getting #2 C, sheltered minutes. Had nothing to do with TDL or KK,. He flat out worked his way up into more minutes and what you are seeing this playoffs is a combination of the player playing well, and the coach rewarding him.

I know thats not a popular mgmt style around here - the general consensus is the new shiny object gets the best players out of the gate - but the way Suzuki has been developed is textbook. Most of the credit to the player, but look at the game logs, he was utilized very well.

 

[Karma Police]

I don't think Suzuki has the same output potential, but I sort of get reminded of Niklas backstrom.

Suzuki is a poor man Tavares. Backstrom is a stretch because he's clearly a passer first. Suzuki has the drive / two-way and vision that a guy like Tavares has/had IMO

 

[DangerDave]

Suzuki is a poor man Tavares. Backstrom is a stretch because he's clearly a passer first. Suzuki has the drive / two-way and vision that a guy like Tavares has/had IMO

I compared him to JT a while ago too but people didn't seem to agree. Wouldn't call him a poor man's JT just yet with how quickly he's improving. He could become a 70pts 2 way C for all we know

 

[Mrb1p]

I compared him to JT a while ago too but people didn't seem to agree. Wouldn't call him a poor man's JT just yet with how quickly he's improving. He could become a 70pts 2 way C for all we know

That would be a poor man JT, as he was a hart level player in his prime.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Was JT ever a two way guy? He was often criticized for his defensive play with the isles.

I can see similar skill sets offensively, but Suzuki will be great all over the ice, most likely a perennial Selke candidate.

 

[Karma Police]

Was JT ever a two way guy? He was often criticized for his defensive play with the isles.

I can see similar skill sets offensively, but Suzuki will be great all over the ice, most likely a perennial Selke candidate.

JT was great defensively because of the IQ he had and he had wheels back then. Broke a lot of plays. He's slower nowadays and for sure it affects his ability in the D zone.

The isles werent a great team back when JT was there, I think he got a lot of flak for it because they had almost no one.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

oh god if he became prime Tavares with Defence??? Jaysus.

Like Mrb1p said, prime Tavares was a problem. One of my favourite non-Habs. I only saw the two period of the Blue Jackets series but he was their best player still imo. And I don't think he's as good as he used to be. Crazy smarts.

I really don't know how good Suzuki can be but it's clear his ceiling is pretty damn high. He's too smart and too skilled. I think he can easily be a lower end star no problem. the real question is how elite can he be. I'm not sure at this point. Man if he scores that one, he's a hero. It was a lethal shot and he was DAMN close.

One thing is him finding soft ice or getting himself open for more scoring chances for himself especially. I think it will come with time. It's sad but he's probably the best forward prospect I've seen as a Hab. I started watching in 88-89 but stopped from 94-00. So I missed early Koivu which was supposed to be pretty exciting. That's a long freaking time. The kid clearly has the goods. He's going to make the Habs at least somewhat more fun again, or for me the first time lol.

 

[Scriptor]

The comparison was with O'Reilly at some point and I believe Suzuki will live up to that comparison quite well. I'm just hoping for more offensively.

 

[Scriptor]

oh god if he became prime Tavares with Defence??? Jaysus.

Like Mrb1p said, prime Tavares was a problem. One of my favourite non-Habs. I only saw the two period of the Blue Jackets series but he was their best player still imo. And I don't think he's as good as he used to be. Crazy smarts.

I really don't know how good Suzuki can be but it's clear his ceiling is pretty damn high. He's too smart and too skilled. I think he can easily be a lower end star no problem. the real question is how elite can he be. I'm not sure at this point. Man if he scores that one, he's a hero. It was a lethal shot and he was DAMN close.

One thing is him finding soft ice or getting himself open for more scoring chances for himself especially. I think it will come with time. It's sad but he's probably the best forward prospect I've seen as a Hab. I started watching in 88-89 but stopped from 94-00. So I missed early Koivu which was supposed to be pretty exciting. That's a long freaking time. The kid clearly has the goods. He's going to make the Habs at least somewhat more fun again, or for me the first time lol.

Early Koivu didn't last all that long, TBH. Once the knee was blown out, the lightning speed advantage disappeared.