NHL Realignment 2012-13 – Part III

[KevFu]

What if they made 10 scheduling pods of three teams each?

Then you come up with a formula to play the right pods the correct number of times, rotating through some over the years?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

What if they made 10 scheduling pods of three teams each?

Then you come up with a formula to play the right pods the correct number of times, rotating through some over the years?

good suggestion for our league, Kev, considering no one from the West has played the East since acquiring the original IHL.....

 

[SoTzuMe]

I'm back! What did I miss? Anyone do my work for me yet?

 

[KevFu]

good suggestion for our league, Kev, considering no one from the West has played the East since acquiring the original IHL.....

????

 

[MoreOrr]

I'm back! What did I miss? Anyone do my work for me yet?

You're referring to this, right?:

.... we've come up with some rules to scale the distance measures in the problems. We're penalizing teams that are across timezone borders and giving teams discounts to pairs of teams that are either both in the same state/province (0.5) or both Canadian, but not in the same province (0.75). Here is the list of discounts/penalties:

- Same state/province: 0.5
- 1 TZ cross (non-Canadian pair): 1.5
- 1 TZ cross (Canadian pair): 1.5*0.75 = 1.125
- 2 TZ crosses (non-Canadian pair): 2
- 2 TZ crosses (Canadian pair): 2*0.75 = 1.5
- 3 TZ crosses (non-Canadian pair): 2.5
- 3 TZ crosses (Canadian pair): 2.5*.75 = 1.875

No, we've been waiting for you.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

????

think you can correct the alignments, so every AHL East franchise plays its West counterparts, one of the major complaints of our master schedule.

 

[danishh]

I think those two maps do have a place here in the alignment thread, if it may be permitted for me to copy them here.

thanks, though for legibility i'd use the timezone one and the population density one sans timezone lines:

and

(I apologize for the old logos ducks yotes sabres caps and bolts fans. I was working off an old image set)

quite frankly, without understanding these two images, you shouldnt even attempt a realignment strategy.

similarly, without reading this post, you shouldnt attempt a relocation/expansion suggestion.

 

[optimus2861]

No, as of now, they play 18 games against the other conference, everyone ONCE and three teams an extra time.

It just now occurs to me that the Canadian teams will probably want the scheduling matrix updated to account for the fact that the math no longer works giving all the Canadian teams home-and-homes. For example, neither Vancouver nor Calgary play games in Winnipeg and the Jets do not visit Edmonton this season. Flip the Jets over to the west, leave the matrix unchanged, and now the Leafs & Habs can't visit every western rink! (yeah yeah, the Sens too.. for whomever out west cares about them )

I wonder how big an issue this will turn out to be...

 

[MoreOrr]

It just now occurs to me that the Canadian teams will probably want the scheduling matrix updated to account for the fact that the math no longer works giving all the Canadian teams home-and-homes. For example, neither Vancouver nor Calgary play games in Winnipeg and the Jets do not visit Edmonton this season. Flip the Jets over to the west, leave the matrix unchanged, and now the Leafs & Habs can't visit every western rink! (yeah yeah, the Sens too.. for whomever out west cares about them )

I wonder how big an issue this will turn out to be...

But that's just for this Season because Winnipeg sort of has Atlanta's schedule in a way. But still, if the League keeps the current scheduling format for the 2012-13 Season, then there won't be the equal balance of those 3 extra games to allow Home-and-home between all the Canadian teams because now there are 4 to be in the West.

But I don't see that as being any kind of issue, because really it has been nothing more than a co-incidence that there are these 3 extra games in the schedule which by chance allowed for that home-and-home bettween the Canadian teams. I certainly don't think the League will plan a scheduling format with that being a necessary criteria.

 

[MoreOrr]

thanks, though for legibility i'd use the timezone one and the population density one sans timezone lines:

Looking at that map, one could interpret it as suggesting that one of the Alberta teams should go to Hamilton, Winnipeg should go to Kansas City or Houston, and an eastern US team should go to Quebec City.

However, I think the Canada-US border isn't a good dividing line. It totally misrepresents the lack of a team in the Northwest US, for instance.

 

[cheswick]

thanks, though for legibility i'd use the timezone one and the population density one sans timezone lines:

and

(I apologize for the old logos ducks yotes sabres caps and bolts fans. I was working off an old image set)

quite frankly, without understanding these two images, you shouldnt even attempt a realignment strategy.

similarly, without reading this post, you shouldnt attempt a relocation/expansion suggestion.

The map isn't divided correctly. SK in in the central time zone not mountain. They don't use DST so at this point in time they are equivalent to mountain but for the majority of the hockey season they will be on par with teh rest of the central time zone

 

[mucker*]

It seems to this is not even an argument, most of us have settled for a simple solution as opposed to re-defining the wheel.

I almost feel this is a now a non discussion.

 

[MoreOrr]

It seems to this is not even an argument, most of us have settled for a simple solution as opposed to re-defining the wheel.

I almost feel this is a now a non discussion.

Partly, we're waiting for more reports, which may be few between now and December. And partly, the two northeastern Divisions appear to have tied everyone's hands as to potential of certain options to occur.

Of course we can still debate about what we think would be good realignment and scheduling options, and I'm into that, but that's just basically a realignment discussion for the interest of it and not specifically connected to the real realignment potential that is being considered by the League.

 

[KingsFan7824]

It seems to this is not even an argument, most of us have settled for a simple solution as opposed to re-defining the wheel.

I almost feel this is a now a non discussion.

This whole realignment thing is pretty much centered around redefining the wheel.

 

[mucker*]

Partly, we're waiting for more reports, which may be few between now and December. And partly, the two northeastern Divisions appear to have tied everyone's hands as to potential of certain options to occur.

Of course we can still debate about what we think would be good realignment and scheduling options, and I'm into that, but that's just basically a realignment discussion for the interest of it and not specifically connected to the real realignment potential that is being considered by the League.

But you agree the ATL and NE have valid points, mainly, re-alignment shouldn't be made so radical as to unneccessarily disturb major rivalries.

This whole realignment thing is pretty much centered around redefining the wheel.

No.

 

[MoreOrr]

But you agree the ATL and NE have valid points, mainly, re-alignment shouldn't be made so radical as to unneccessarily disturb major rivalries.

No, that isn't my idea of what's the best case scenario. I'm in favor of a more widespread realignment, but keeping the 6-Division structure.

 

[Oobz]

Pretty sure fans will still watch hockey if Pittsburgh and Philadelphia play just 2 less games a year. They should do whats best for the league.

 

[KevFu]

think you can correct the alignments, so every AHL East franchise plays its West counterparts, one of the major complaints of our master schedule.

Ah, I missed the transition from NHL to AHL. Yeah, the AHL alignment is wacky due to the ridiculous extreme nature of team locations. If Detroit thinks they have it rough, Rochester (East of Buffalo) is in the WEST in the AHL with Texas, Illinois and Abbotsford.

Partly, we're waiting for more reports, which may be few between now and December. And partly, the two northeastern Divisions appear to have tied everyone's hands as to potential of certain options to occur.

Of course we can still debate about what we think would be good realignment and scheduling options, and I'm into that, but that's just basically a realignment discussion for the interest of it and not specifically connected to the real realignment potential that is being considered by the League.

To me, it's more about "Can a group of smart guys like us SOLVE this thing?" As opposed to guessing what they'll do.

This whole realignment thing is pretty much centered around redefining the wheel.

I think that's not a great analogy, because the wheel isn't 30 parts with 30 agendas. This thread would be "redefining the wheel" if the league was:
VAN, EDM, CAL, COL, Seattle
LA, ANA, PHX, SJ, Sacramento
CHI, STL, MIN, WIN, Kansas City
NYR, NYI, PHI, PIT, BOS
OTT, MON, TOR, BUF, DET
CAR, ATL, FLA, TB, Jacksonville

But the league isn't. It's by no means symmetrical.

But you agree the ATL and NE have valid points, mainly, re-alignment shouldn't be made so radical as to unneccessarily disturb major rivalries.

Realignment can be radical if it solves the current issues while preserving the current positives. That's why some people (like myself) are trying to propose some crafty elaborate models of alignment AND schedule.

No, that isn't my idea of what's the best case scenario. I'm in favor of a more widespread realignment, but keeping the 6-Division structure.

There's two ways of looking at it in this thread:

#1 - "how do we slide teams around within our current framework?" (Winnipeg to NW, Colorado/Vancouver to Pacific, Dallas to Central, Detroit/Columbus/Nashville to Southeast)

#2 - "how do we create a framework that makes a lot of situations better, without sacrificing anything important we need to retain?"

I think the #1 part is relatively easy. But it still leaves some of Minnesota, Dallas, Columbus, Detroit, Nashville, Washington with situations they'd like to see changed.

Which is why I'm focused on #2.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I think that's not a great analogy, because the wheel isn't 30 parts with 30 agendas. This thread would be "redefining the wheel" if the league was:
VAN, EDM, CAL, COL, Seattle
LA, ANA, PHX, SJ, Sacramento
CHI, STL, MIN, WIN, Kansas City
NYR, NYI, PHI, PIT, BOS
OTT, MON, TOR, BUF, DET
CAR, ATL, FLA, TB, Jacksonville

But the league isn't. It's by no means symmetrical.

Redefining the wheel. The winged wheel. The promises made and redefining the Detroit Red Wings as an Eastern Conference team. That's what I was going for.

 

[MoreOrr]

To me, it's more about "Can a group of smart guys like us SOLVE this thing?" As opposed to guessing what they'll do.

There's two ways of looking at it in this thread:

#1 - "how do we slide teams around within our current framework?" (Winnipeg to NW, Colorado/Vancouver to Pacific, Dallas to Central, Detroit/Columbus/Nashville to Southeast)

#2 - "how do we create a framework that makes a lot of situations better, without sacrificing anything important we need to retain?"

I think the #1 part is relatively easy. But it still leaves some of Minnesota, Dallas, Columbus, Detroit, Nashville, Washington with situations they'd like to see changed.

Which is why I'm focused on #2.

Hey, I like that attitude also, and you know that I, like a group of us here, post lots of alignment ideas that I don't necessarily believe the League will adopt but that I think are just potentially good. And there's this thought that you never know, there might be members of the League that sometimes check out this site and take a look at some of our thought processes here.

As for the "two ways of looking at" the possible realignment scenarios here... I think I also consider both... Things that fit more or less "inside the box", and things that are "outside the box". The only box I generally stick to is the 6-Division one, because I simply have this basic opinion that Divisions smaller than 5 teams are too small, and Divisions larger than 7 teams are too large.
But within that,...
- I consider 6 Divisions more or less within the current East - West structure.
- I consider 6 Divisions with a mix of east-west, north-south in both Conferences.
- And I've considered 6 Divisions within a 3 Conference structure.
- I've also considered "flex-Divisions", and different scheduling matrixes.

 

[Crayton]

To me, it's more about "Can a group of smart guys like us SOLVE this thing?" As opposed to guessing what they'll do.

I like that.

There are alot of ideas thrown into this thread, and some are quite interesting to consider.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Should just do 5 divisions of six teams, no conferences, and 16 playoff teams.

Pacific - Vancouver, San Jose, Los Angeles, Anaheim, Phoenix, and Colorado
Midwest - Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Minnesota, Chicago, and St. Louis
Southeast - Dallas, Nashville, Carolina, Columbus, Tampa, and Florida
Northeast - Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, Buffalo, Boston, and Ottawa
Atlantic - New York, New York, New Jersey, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Washington

Play everyone twice outside the division and six or seven times in the division. Six cuts the schedule to 78 and seven ups it to 83. Both are doable. Of course the league doesn't mess with the playoff format like this.

 

[RandR]

Pierre LeBrun, who is often on TSN, posted in his ESPN.com blog yesterday:

The Rant Blog: Schedules, fights and realignment angst!

The league has in fact thought out of the box on realignment, but it was met with resistance from the board of governors when realignment was discussed Sept. 20 in New York. You see, it takes a two-thirds majority from the board to approve any realignment. The league privately supports the idea of going to a four-conference set-up, which it believes would better alleviate geographical concerns, but the majority of governors pushed for the current six-division format (with a few changes) to remain.

We'll see what prevails Dec. 5-6 when the board votes on realignment, but the prevailing feeling amongst most governors is to fix the Winnipeg issue without making too many drastic changes. This is far from over. There is an incredible amount of discussion/lobbying going on behind the scenes.

I wouldn't be surprised if we do get some more news in the next little while, but I have a feeling that we won't be hearing about any kind of consensus being formed before the board actually meets in December.

 

[danishh]

Pierre LeBrun, who is often on TSN, posted in his ESPN.com blog yesterday:

The Rant Blog: Schedules, fights and realignment angst!



I wouldn't be surprised if we do get some more news in the next little while, but I have a feeling that we won't be hearing about any kind of consensus being formed before the board actually meets in December.

well, the lobbying is pretty obvious.

NE and ATL teams want their divisions to stay the same.
DET, CBJ, and NSH want the spot in the east.
DAL and MIN want to move to the central.

 

[knorthern knight]

Should just do 5 divisions of six teams, no conferences, and 16 playoff teams.

Pacific - Vancouver, San Jose, Los Angeles, Anaheim, Phoenix, and Colorado
Midwest - Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Minnesota, Chicago, and St. Louis
Southeast - Dallas, Nashville, Carolina, Columbus, Tampa, and Florida
Northeast - Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, Buffalo, Boston, and Ottawa
Atlantic - New York, New York, New Jersey, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Washington

Play everyone twice outside the division and six or seven times in the division. Six cuts the schedule to 78 and seven ups it to 83. Both are doable. Of course the league doesn't mess with the playoff format like this.

I've proposed something similar in the thread, based on Coyotes moving to QC.

WESTERN - Anaheim, Calgary, Edmonton, Los Angeles, San Jose, Vancouver
CENTRAL - Chicago, Colorado, Dallas, Minnesota, St Louis, Winnipeg
NORTHEASTERN - Buffalo, Detroit, Montreal, Ottawa, Quebec, Toronto
MIDEASTERN - Boston, New Jersey, New York, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh
SOUTHEASTERN - Carolina, Columbus, Miami, Nashville, Tampa, Washington