NHL Realignment 2012-13 – Part III

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by MoreOrr, Oct 17, 2011.

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  1. Mad Dog Tannen

    Mad Dog Tannen Registered User

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    It absolutely has not.
     
  2. MoreOrr

    MoreOrr B4

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    And where have you heard that? Other than it being expressed as the opinion of a few people here, I haven't heard such thinking; and personally I don't agree with the thinking that 4 Divisions offers more "flexibility" for "team movement and future growth".

    "Flexibility" all depends on the members in the League, not on the number of Divisions. And it's the two northeastern Divisions which are the most 'inflexible', and even with 4 Divisions there is little potential that the alignment groupings of those two Divisions wouldn't be effected. IN Fact, there is much speculation that those two Divisions have played a big role in likely squashing the 4-Division idea, in part for that very reason.

    As for future growth... If the League can go with unbalanced Divisions now, as you and some others might like with a 4-Division setup, and having that with Expansion likely no sooner than at least 3 years after the 2012-13 Season... Then the League can equally live with unbalanced Divisions within a 6-Division setup. And it's that "unbalanced" scenario which actually offers more "flexibility" in alignment because the League can pick and choose, with possible movement of teams, which Divisions get 5 teams and which get 6 teams. The "flexibility" offered by 4-Divisions only really exists as long as the unbalance exists.
     
  3. cheswick

    cheswick Non-registered User

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    Alignment aside what do we peg the chances of the schedule being altered so every team plays every other team at least twice in a season. Thats the one thing I want to see
     
  4. MoreOrr

    MoreOrr B4

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    If Detroit and/or Columbus stay in the West, then that's what they'll want to see as well. But again, there is at least speculation around here that the Eastern Conference won't be too keen on that idea.

    I think that if the League goes with one of the following scheduling matrixes, it could help out Detroit and Columbus or whichever stays in the West (plus the CTZ teams there), while at the same time not forcing the East Conference and the PTZ teams to all necessarily play 2 games against each other:
    But those are all closer approximations of the more balanced schedule that you want.
     
  5. Grudy0

    Grudy0 Registered User

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    I don't think it is happening, either.

    One of the main reasons the East doesn't want to see a more balanced schedule is because it would eat into their conference games. The 6-4-18 matrix has worked well for them. Making that matrix x-x-30 means twelve games, six home and six away games get rescheduled from either their conference or divisional rivals and forces another six games to be played out in the Western Conference.
     
  6. KingsFan7824

    KingsFan7824 Registered User

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    Eastern Conference
    Bos, Buf, Car, Chi, Clb, Dal, Det, Fla, Min, Mtl, Nas, NJ, NYI, NYR, Ott, Phi, Pit, StL, TB, Tor, Was, Wpg

    Western Conference
    Ana, Cal, Col, Edm, LA, Phx, SJ, Van

    84 game schedule
    Eastern teams play each other 4 times each
    Western teams play each other 12 times each
    Top 12 teams in the east make the playoffs
    Top 4 teams in the west make the playoffs
    The 4 western teams play each other in the 1st and 2nd rounds
    The final four are 3 eastern teams, and 1 western team, and they get reseeded
     
  7. mucker*

    mucker* Guest

    Stupid.
    Yea, let's split up NY-PHI, nevermind 40 years of history, let's be the only sport where teams 75-90 miles apart are separated.
     
  8. mucker*

    mucker* Guest

    I'll ask MoreOrr and the board again (since this was ignored)

    Give me your opinion on these proposals:


    Option A:
    -Nashville to SE
    -Winnipeg to NW
    -Minnesota to C


    Option B:
    -Nashville to SE
    -Winnipeg to NW
    -Vancouver to Pacific
    -Dallas to Central


    Option C:
    -Nashville to SE
    -Winnipeg to NW
    -Colorado to Pacific
    -Dallas to Central


    Any of these options, I think, are best.
    Why?

    1) NO rivalries *(aside from VAN's) are disturbed
    -All the NY-NJ are intact
    -NY-PHI intact
    -PIT-PHI intact
    -BOS-MON intact
    -CHI-DET intact

    2) Balance of conference power maintained
    -Still have big market DET and CHI with LA out west
    -2 original sixes (Chi is not left out to dry)

    3) Time zones more respected
    -Option A...Minnesota is with CST
    -Option B and C....Dallas is in CST

    4) No team is left out to dro
    -If DET moves to the east...CHI is the only original 6 out west and Columbus is the only EST in the west

    5) No crazy mis-alignments (WIN in the Central, but MIN in the NW as some have proposed would do this).

    Possible complaints:
    1) VAN in Option B is removed from their "rivals" (but is given much better travel and time zone, especially if PHO goes to SEA)
    2) Option A and C...COL is the sole US team in the NW and in C MIN is the sole US team in the NW
    (But...really...COL...who cares...they have no natural rival as stands in the NW and having WIN over MIN is not a big deal, ratings would likely not be hurt)
    (Also...option C...MIN would have nearby WIN).


    To me, these make sense because they try to address legit complains from MIN/DAL/WIN without really disrupting current big rivalries.
     
  9. KevFu

    KevFu Registered User

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    Do a West - Central - East in each conference, and have teams play all their cross-conference games against the geographical division.

    Problems solved.

    For example:

    Wales Conference:
    East: NYR, NYI, NJ, PHI, PIT
    Central: DET, CBJ, STL, CHI, NASH
    West: VAN, EDM, CAL, WIN, MIN

    Campbell Conference:
    East: MON, BOS, OTT, TOR, BUF
    South: DAL, TB, FLA, CAR, WAS
    West: SJ, LA, ANA, PHX, COL

    6 vs Division, 4 vs conf, 4 vs one division (E vs E, C vs S, W vs W) 84 games.

    DET Road games:
    21 ETZ, 15 CTZ, 4 MTZ, 2 PTZ

    CBJ Road games:
    21 ETZ, 15 CTZ, 4 MTZ, 2 PTZ

    DAL Road games:
    26 ETZ, 6 CTZ, 4 MTZ, 6 PTZ

    MIN Road Games
    14 ETZ, 9 CTZ, 10 MTZ, 9 PTZ

    WIN Road Games
    14 ETZ, 9 CTZ, 10 MTZ, 9 PTZ

    VAN Road Games
    14 ETZ, 10 CTZ, 14 MTZ, 6 PTZ
     
  10. Grudy0

    Grudy0 Registered User

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    I'm not so sure. I think we missed an article. From Michael Russo of Minneapolis Star-Tribuine:
    If 12 of 15 Eastern teams are banding together to stop a grand realignment to a four-division setup, it can easily be seen that those teams will protect the status quo over anything. Yes, it is possible that Bettman and the League could lobby some of the possible dissenters, but that would require at least three teams to change their vote, and I personally believe that would be a difficult sell.
     
  11. CHRDANHUTCH

    CHRDANHUTCH Registered User

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    that's essentially wht we have now, rotation-wise, in this format, you all are making this harder than it has to be...... Interleague play is wht you've essentially proposed, KevFu, 84 games isn't the question tht's voted upon, it's the alignment in this 3 division format, bc don't they have a 2nd vote on the schedule anyway?

    it's not like either conference is playing conference-only..... ie BOS just hosted COL.... THAT'S the complaint lobbied in our league where some of the bigger East cities would see the midwest or west teams, whereas the smaller East cities will not even if it's semi-agreed to be on a rotation....
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2011
  12. MoreOrr

    MoreOrr B4

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    I've already stated on the 1st page of this thread that I think "Option B" has a good likelihood.

    But Vancouver or Colorado to the Pacific is still a hard call, and Detroit or Nashville to the Southeast is still a hard call. Who knows for sure how the vote will go either case.
     
  13. MoreOrr

    MoreOrr B4

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    Now you're getting there!! :thumbu:

    I would change up your schedule idea though...
    6 vs 4 Division
    4 vs 5 in-Conference
    2 vs other 5 in-Conference
    -----
    3 vs 5 cross-Conference geographical Division
    2 vs 5 other Conference teams
    1 vs 5 distant other Conference teams
    84 games, same total you have.
     
  14. Grudy0

    Grudy0 Registered User

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    I don't think there is a second vote on the schedule. I think the schedule has to be determined with the groupings, otherwise the schedule will be left as-is if there is a second vote, and I'd have to see what the by-law actually says in order to figure out how it is changed.
     
  15. MoreOrr

    MoreOrr B4

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    How so? Not at all!
    Detroit, Columbus, Chicago, St Louis, Nashville, Dallas... none of those teams have the benefit of the format KevFu sketched out.
     
  16. KevFu

    KevFu Registered User

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    No, as of now, they play 18 games against the other conference, everyone ONCE and three teams an extra time.

    This would make the ETZ teams go the west coast (VAN/EDM/CAL or SJ/ANA/PHX) the same number of times, but they'd hit the CTZ/MTZ an extra time.

    Compare the W-C-E format to the West Conf/East Conf format we have now:

    DET Road games:
    WCE: 21 ETZ, 15 CTZ, 4 MTZ, 2 PTZ
    Now: 12 ETZ, 13 CTZ, 8 MTZ, 8 PTZ

    CBJ Road games:
    WCE: 21 ETZ, 15 CTZ, 4 MTZ, 2 PTZ
    Now: 12 ETZ, 13 CTZ, 8 MTZ, 8 PTZ

    DAL Road games:
    WCE: 26 ETZ, 6 CTZ, 4 MTZ, 6 PTZ
    Now: 13 ETZ, 8 CTZ, 9 MTZ, 11 PTZ

    MIN Road Games
    WCE: 14 ETZ, 9 CTZ, 10 MTZ, 9 PTZ
    Now: 13 ETZ, 8 CTZ, 11 MTZ, 9 PTZ

    WIN Road Games
    WCE: 14 ETZ, 9 CTZ, 10 MTZ, 9 PTZ
    Now: NA

    VAN Road Games
    WCE: 14 ETZ, 10 CTZ, 14 MTZ, 6 PTZ
    Now: 13 ETZ, 11 CTZ, 11 MTZ, 6 PTZ
     
  17. mucker*

    mucker* Guest

    Which one of those do you personally want to see?

    I am cool with either, but would like A with Minnesota back in the "Noris".
     
  18. MoreOrr

    MoreOrr B4

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    Ok, we discussed this the other day. There may not be more than one comprehensive vote (unless the first one doesn't pass, they may try a modified second vote some time after), but there almost certainly will be small voting sessions on individual elements to see what pieces will constitute the final official comprehensive package to be voted on. Otherwise, how would they decide what exact elements to put in the complete package that will be ultimately voted on.
     
  19. MoreOrr

    MoreOrr B4

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    Option B!

    Though I'd love to see Columbus in the East but with an all-round changed-up alignment there.
    Clb and Pit > Northeast/Great Lakes
    Mtl and Bos > Atlantic/Northeast
    Phi > Southeast/Atlantic

    But that's extremely unlikely to happen.
     
  20. mucker*

    mucker* Guest

    You can have PHI not with BOTH NY/NJ AND PIT!
    Come on.

    In a perfect world, I too would like NY and BOS to be re-united and I'd like PIT to have the Ohio rivalry.
    But with the current location of 30 teams, table it.

    Sounds to me like people are beginning to be more reasonable.

    MoreOrr, let me ask, don;t you find the whole "we can't have 4 Canada teams in 1 division" to be foolish?

    Like come on, is it really going to matter if Winnipeg replaces Minnesota in the NW?
     
  21. CHRDANHUTCH

    CHRDANHUTCH Registered User

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    under KevFu's format:

    why is DAL aligned w/ the 4 Current SE teams, that other proposals have said DET is the team replacing WPG in said division....

    WPG to NW, Dallas replaces Detroit in the current Central, VAN replaces DAL in the Pacific..... why unnecessarily move CHI, St. Louis or Nashville, or even Columbus?
     
  22. MoreOrr

    MoreOrr B4

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    You need to go and read through the first couple of pages of this thread. I had already commented on which of your 3 Options I thought was best even before you first posted them. And I've already commented specifically on the topic I bolded in your post above...
    Post #35
     
  23. MoreOrr

    MoreOrr B4

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    Just go back and look again at KevFu's alignment, CHRDANHUTCH... You seem to be missing a significant factor. Hint... East and West in both Conferences!
     
  24. kdb209

    kdb209 Registered User

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    The Conference/Divisional alignment is defined in By-Law 6.

    The Regular Season playing schedule is defined in By-Law 26 (although the By-Laws filed in the Phoenix BK, still have the scheduling matrix from '92-'93, 26 teams).

    The Stanley Cup Playoff seeding and format is defined in By-Law 27.

    By-Laws 7, 26, and 27 (if there are any changes to the playoffs) would all have to be amended with a 2/3s vote - 20 out of 30 teams voting yes.

    The Constitution & By-Laws do not specify a process for amending the By-Laws - just the 2/3 majority vote requirement. They do not require nor disallow that By-Law amendments be voted individually or aggregated in a single vote - so it would be basically up to GB, under his authority to interpret and establish policies and procedures regarding League Rules, to make that decision. Doing anything other than voting on them as a package would not make any sense.

    That said, any official vote at the BoG meeting will likely be nothing more than a formality - any proposal will have already been vetted with the teams and unofficial votes already taken.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2011
  25. MoreOrr

    MoreOrr B4

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    19 out 29... The Phoenix vote, how would it be handled?

    And that "vetted" part you talk about, could probably consist of various indivdual more or less informal voting processes.
     
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