NHL move to Winnipeg 'a step back'

[headsigh]

Isn't it funny how we only heard those babies from phoenix ***** and complain about not wanting to play in cold weather, but not a peep out of any players in Atlanta?

That's because a most of the Thrasher players are from BC, Alberta, Sasketchewan or Sweden.

 

[worstfaceoffmanever]

I take it you've never been to Canada during hockey season? $75-$80 to see an NHL game would be a dream in most of Canada.

You mean most of Ontario? The average ticket price for each Canadian team, with accompanying rank in the league as a whole:

1. Toronto - $115.68
2. Montreal - $86.44
3. Calgary - $66.68
4. Vancouver - $65.20
5. Edmonton - $64.87
10. Ottawa - $59.74

(Source)

So, basically, Winnipeg prices would have be somewhere between Calgary's and Montreal's for them to be profitable AND spend to the cap (which they might not do), unless Thomson is willing to pump a sizable amount of capital into the team each year.

 

[Retail1LO*]

You mean most of Ontario? The average ticket price for each Canadian team, with accompanying rank in the league as a whole:

1. Toronto - $115.68
2. Montreal - $86.44
3. Calgary - $66.68
4. Vancouver - $65.20
5. Edmonton - $64.87
10. Ottawa - $59.74

(Source)

So, basically, Winnipeg prices would have be somewhere between Calgary's and Montreal's for them to be profitable AND spend to the cap (which they might not do), unless Thomson is willing to pump a sizable amount of capital into the team each year.

These numbers seem like you're assuming they have to break even on ticket revenue alone.

 

[adolfz]

According to this page, NHL average attendance is roughly 17 000 and average ticket price is 51 dollars.

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/ind...erage_ticket_prices_since_1994_95/119-2008-09

For Winnipeg to reach this number is needed to sell 15 000 at 57 dollars for each game. This would put W ticket prices the lowest among Canadian teams. It would also put gate revenue above that of Buffalo, Anaheim, Colorado, Columbus, Dallas, Florida, LA, San Jose etc, not mentioning such markets as Florida or Phoenix which sells 11 000 tickets at 37 dollars each. On the emotional note, telecasts from Atlanta, Phoenix or Florida are depressing, I never watch them. Empty seats and silence, it doesn't make the league look good, I bet atmosphere in W will be great and inspiring. Give the game back to people!

 

[Gump Hasek]

According to this page, NHL average attendance is roughly 17 000 and average ticket price is 51 dollars.

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/ind...erage_ticket_prices_since_1994_95/119-2008-09

For Winnipeg to reach this number is needed to sell 15 000 at 57 dollars for each game. This would put W ticket prices the lowest among Canadian teams. It would also put gate revenue above that of Buffalo, Anaheim, Colorado, Columbus, Dallas, Florida, LA, San Jose etc, not mentioning such markets as Florida or Phoenix which sells 11 000 tickets at 37 dollars each. On the emotional note, telecasts from Atlanta, Phoenix or Florida are depressing, I never watch them. Empty seats and silence, it doesn't make the league look good, I bet atmosphere in W will be great and inspiring. Give the game back to people!

Thanks for the great post.

Cheers.

 

[blasted]

According to this page, NHL average attendance is roughly 17 000 and average ticket price is 51 dollars.

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/ind...erage_ticket_prices_since_1994_95/119-2008-09

For Winnipeg to reach this number is needed to sell 15 000 at 57 dollars for each game. This would put W ticket prices the lowest among Canadian teams. It would also put gate revenue above that of Buffalo, Anaheim, Colorado, Columbus, Dallas, Florida, LA, San Jose etc, not mentioning such markets as Florida or Phoenix which sells 11 000 tickets at 37 dollars each. On the emotional note, telecasts from Atlanta, Phoenix or Florida are depressing, I never watch them. Empty seats and silence, it doesn't make the league look good, I bet atmosphere in W will be great and inspiring. Give the game back to people!

So, in 2014 when Columbus comes to Winnipeg in January will the empty seats in the MTS depress u or is it only a problem when its in an American building?


The "people"? Does that not include newcomers to the game? Sounds almost un-Canadian to me....perhaps we should not allow new Canadians to play the game either.

 

[Lux Aurumque*]

Yeah, it's SUCH a step back to take a franchise from a city that has had 11 years to support the team, but has completely failed at doing so, and move it to a city that is crazy about hockey, and will support the team immensely from day one. /sarcasm

Also, I've never seen an Oilers ticket for anything close to $64.87. I paid 90 dollars each for tickets in the 33rd row of the 200 level, and that was still below face value at season ticket holder pricing.

 

[Huis Clos*]

Yeah, it's SUCH a step back to take a franchise from a city that has had 11 years to support the team, but has completely failed at doing so, and move it to a city that is crazy about hockey, and will support the team immensely from day one. /sarcasm

Like Winnipeg did with the Jets?

 

[berklon]

So, in 2014 when Columbus comes to Winnipeg in January will the empty seats in the MTS depress u or is it only a problem when its in an American building?

If there are empty seats, there won't be that many... and the MTS Centre will still be loud and exciting. Vastly different from some of the other markets.

 

[JackBurton]

You mean most of Ontario? The average ticket price for each Canadian team, with accompanying rank in the league as a whole:

1. Toronto - $115.68
2. Montreal - $86.44
3. Calgary - $66.68
4. Vancouver - $65.20
5. Edmonton - $64.87
10. Ottawa - $59.74

(Source)

So, basically, Winnipeg prices would have be somewhere between Calgary's and Montreal's for them to be profitable AND spend to the cap (which they might not do), unless Thomson is willing to pump a sizable amount of capital into the team each year.

Yeah, that's face value of tickets that sell out within minutes. Unless you can afford season tickets or know someone who can, you're going to pay at least double for those tickets from someone.

 

[New User Name]

I find so many posts here funny. Already some are talking about the demise of the new team in Winnipeg.

Winnipeg will be fine folks and if they need a bit of help, well, they'll just take advantage of revenue sharing......like so many teams do now.

Be nice to see a Canadian team actually receive some instead of sending thousands/millions down south.

 

[Steve Passless*]

So, in 2014 when Columbus comes to Winnipeg

Columbus probably isn't going to have a team by 2014

 

[Melrose Munch]

Columbus probably isn't going to have a team by 2014

That situation is really ugly.

 

[Melrose Munch]

You sound very bitter about Winnipeg returning to the NHL. Isn't it funny how we only heard those babies from phoenix ***** and complain about not wanting to play in cold weather, but not a peep out of any players in Atlanta? Care to explain that one? Let's not forget that there will be many players excited to play in Canadas newest team. There will always be players who don't want to play in different areas for different reasons, including the desert and the deep south.

I have never ever heard anyone say I don't want to play in Florida. At least in public.

 

[Southern Oil]

I am not sure I should be posting in these types of threads cause they just piss me off. All that everyone does is basically argue over emotions but try to pretend otherwise. I love the people that say hockey can't succeed here, give some economic sermon and then gloss over the large factors that have contributed to the Thrashers demise. Most everyone is just arguing with their heart and not their head.

The Thrashers (if they leave - call me what you want but I still hope a hero walks in at the last minute to buy the club and keep it here) are in this position for two reasons and two reasons only:
- ownership: when you have a group of owners suing each other, do you think they give a rats ass about running a hockey club in an emerging market?
- product: not one single playoff game win in their history - and all the Canadian fans act like it's shocking that people (who don't know hockey from birth) don't go to games!!! Did you see the Nashville building this playoffs, the Shark Tank? Sure they must know something more than the people of Atlanta about hockey right - can't have anything to do with exciting playoff action. Give me a break.

I remember when the Oil were in the market to leave for Houston. When that was over and we survived, I vowed only at last resort to support moving franchises. That was not an experience that I wish for people to go through. That hasn't changed. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people here - but what do the majority of Canadians care. Hell lets move the Red Wings to Moose Jaw and the Rangers to Kamloops while we are at it.

 

[adolfz]

So, in 2014 when Columbus comes to Winnipeg in January will the empty seats in the MTS depress u or is it only a problem when its in an American building?


The "people"? Does that not include newcomers to the game? Sounds almost un-Canadian to me....perhaps we should not allow new Canadians to play the game either.

Why would there be empty seats in 2014 when Edmonton is selling out their arena for like 10 consecutive years with relatively poor team? I am obviously not from Canada but is there such a huge difference between these cities in terms of population, income and interest for hockey? And why January, people in Winnipeg must be used to climate there already, if you meant that.
I respect newcomers to the game, but in this case there must be some hockey fans in Mexico City also. Let's respect them and it is a huge market of 20 million people. A bit edgy, but it is difficult to sell ice to Eskimos. I feel bad for Atlanta fans, but looking at strictly statistically it's not people's choice there. What percentage there knows hockey or is potentially interested in buying tickets comparing to Winnipeg? Battman's vision has been faulty, it was one of the exaggerations of the 80-90s business thinking. Let's just look at metro population and TV market, invest heavily in communication marketing and profit whatever the product is. It didn't work, for product to succeed the game has to return to its grassroots. Because it's 95% cheaper to cross and up sell to existing customers than to sell to new ones. Phoenix has a team only because Battman's overblown ego and stubbornness. They are gone already and the important factor is Canada's great economic condition which probably won't change for the next ten years relatively to USA. Also, we must give credit where credit's due - the hard cap is making the product on ice very competitive and is protective to smaller markets.

 

[Rob]

Winnipeg will not add a single fan to the aggregate NHL base. Not turn on a single more telelvision,

Give me a break.

And that is nothing to be happy about if you are a NHL fan

Most Canadians are HOCKEY FANS first and NHL fans a distant second.

That is why we are happy with the news.

 

[kdb209]

You mean most of Ontario? The average ticket price for each Canadian team, with accompanying rank in the league as a whole:

1. Toronto - $115.68
2. Montreal - $86.44
3. Calgary - $66.68
4. Vancouver - $65.20
5. Edmonton - $64.87
10. Ottawa - $59.74

(Source)

So, basically, Winnipeg prices would have be somewhere between Calgary's and Montreal's for them to be profitable AND spend to the cap (which they might not do), unless Thomson is willing to pump a sizable amount of capital into the team each year.

According to this page, NHL average attendance is roughly 17 000 and average ticket price is 51 dollars.

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/ind...erage_ticket_prices_since_1994_95/119-2008-09

For Winnipeg to reach this number is needed to sell 15 000 at 57 dollars for each game. This would put W ticket prices the lowest among Canadian teams. It would also put gate revenue above that of Buffalo, Anaheim, Colorado, Columbus, Dallas, Florida, LA, San Jose etc, not mentioning such markets as Florida or Phoenix which sells 11 000 tickets at 37 dollars each. On the emotional note, telecasts from Atlanta, Phoenix or Florida are depressing, I never watch them. Empty seats and silence, it doesn't make the league look good, I bet atmosphere in W will be great and inspiring. Give the game back to people!

Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.
Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.

Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.
Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.

[Standard TMR Disclaimer]
Those numbers are from Team Marketing Report - which has been debunked numerous times here as being wildly inaccurate for many teams due to methodological flaws.

Wait, you're basing this on the "leaked" Globe & Mail report, right?

Yes - and simple analysis done of actual Colorado (ColoradoHockeyFan) and San Jose (myself) ticket prices.

This post by CHF shows the flaw in TMRs methodology after they changed it in 2001 to arbitrarily exclude "premium" seats.

No. That is a BAD place to find pricing info.

The bogus numbers on the Team Marketing Report site have been debunked numerous times on the BoH board.

Probably the best (and possibly the only) numbers you are going to find for avg ticket prices were the numbers leaked last year in the Globe & Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/v5/content/pdf/NHLweb.pdf

Thank you. (And thanks to Fugu too.)

Continue to spread the message about the worthlessness of Team Marketing Report, and we will eventually triumph over misinformation! Can I get a hallelujah!

And to further the cause, here is the sorted version of the accurate numbers from that Globe and Mail link:

Average ticket prices by team
Team                   2006-07  2005-06
Toronto Maple Leafs    80.33    78.98
Colorado Avalanche     71.04    65.55
New York Rangers       63.53    54.19
Dallas Stars           61.43    58.37
Edmonton Oilers        61.14    50.20
Montreal Canadiens     60.82    58.74
Boston Bruins          59.71    56.61
Vancouver Canucks      58.74    56.24
Detroit Red Wings      56.95    56.72
Columbus Blue Jackets  56.07    53.77
Philadelphia Flyers    54.59    51.94
Minnesota Wild         54.54    51.18
Anaheim Ducks          52.25    49.79
San Jose Sharks        50.95    49.05
Calgary Flames         50.70    46.97
Ottawa Senators        50.38    45.30
New Jersey Devils      49.91    48.97
Los Angeles Kings      46.75    44.17
New York Islanders     45.04    46.30
Carolina Hurricanes    44.91    38.81
Tampa Bay Lightning    44.50    42.38
Phoenix Coyotes        43.60    45.66
Chicago Blackhawks     40.79    39.74
Nashville Predators    40.33    34.74
Florida Panthers       39.75    44.59
Washington Capitals    39.57    36.16
St. Louis Blues        39.50    35.23
Pittsburgh Penguins    38.62    38.05
Atlanta Thrashers      37.27    32.70
Buffalo Sabres         36.67    36.37
League average         52.13    49.31

Edit: An additional note on one of the reasons that Team Marketing Report's numbers are bogus. Sometime around the 2000-2001 season, they inexplicably decided to stop including anything termed "premium seating" in their average ticket prices. This immediately invalidates their numbers because of the way in which they collect their data--from marketing reps of the respective teams. Each team is allowed to label as "premium seating" any portion of their arena. So a team like Colorado, for example, can simply say that the entire lower bowl is "premium," and exclude it from the average, which is how you wind up with their laughable (made-up) "average" ticket price of under $40!

Edit: For a clear illustration of the effect of the above artificial calculation of average ticket price, observe the historical prices reported by TMR documented here:

http://andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Business/ticket-prices.htm

Note the average ticket prices reported for Colorado during the 2000-01 season and the 2001-02 season. According to TMR, the average ticket price dropped that year from $63.11 in 2000-01 to $37.36 in 2001-02. In other words, TMR would have you believe that the Avs, coming off of a Stanley Cup winning season, with one of the best single seasons ever put together by an NHL team, not only decided to drop their ticket prices (laughable enough), but decided to drop them by an unheard of 41%! (clearly more laughable). As a season ticket-holder for the past 12 years, I can assure you that no such thing happened (not that I needed to tell you this). There was no drop, obviously. There was an increase (also obviously). The artificial numbers reported by TMR that year (and every year thereafter) are simply the result of the seat classification flaw mentioned above in this post.

[/Standard TMR Disclaimer]

I now return you to your regularly scheduled weather reports ...

 

[Scouter]

I have never ever heard anyone say I don't want to play in Florida. At least in public.

I can think of at least 1 reason why at least I would not want to play in Florida, the "ice", if you can call it that, sucks there, so what if the weather is so nice, it's too nice for good ice.

 

[New User Name]

I am not sure I should be posting in these types of threads cause they just piss me off. All that everyone does is basically argue over emotions but try to pretend otherwise. I love the people that say hockey can't succeed here, give some economic sermon and then gloss over the large factors that have contributed to the Thrashers demise. Most everyone is just arguing with their heart and not their head.

The Thrashers (if they leave - call me what you want but I still hope a hero walks in at the last minute to buy the club and keep it here) are in this position for two reasons and two reasons only:
- ownership: when you have a group of owners suing each other, do you think they give a rats ass about running a hockey club in an emerging market?
- product: not one single playoff game win in their history - and all the Canadian fans act like it's shocking that people (who don't know hockey from birth) don't go to games!!! Did you see the Nashville building this playoffs, the Shark Tank? Sure they must know something more than the people of Atlanta about hockey right - can't have anything to do with exciting playoff action. Give me a break.

I remember when the Oil were in the market to leave for Houston. When that was over and we survived, I vowed only at last resort to support moving franchises. That was not an experience that I wish for people to go through. That hasn't changed. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people here - but what do the majority of Canadians care. Hell lets move the Red Wings to Moose Jaw and the Rangers to Kamloops while we are at it.

I see it differently than you. I don't think many Winnipeg fans are happy to see the Thrashers leave. Seems whatever excuses some Canadians have come up with for the moving of the Jets and QC back in the 1990's are bogus reasons but the reasons for Atlanta and other teams are legit.

All I know is the Jets and QC didn't get any financial help from the NHL, yet other teams are receiving millions in revenue sharing.

And we know if not for the dysfunctional owners of the Thrashers, Winnipeg would still not have a team.

Put the blame where it belongs.

PS I doubt the majority of Americans cared when the Jets and QC left. Are Canadians to be held to a higher standard?

 

[Gnashville]

this story and the gloating in the G&M is beyond ridiculous, suggesting that several teams will come back "Home"

The NHL understands that its reliable gates are in Canada. The loss of Atlanta, for the second time, is a rebuke to its southern-growth strategy. That franchise suffered because of weak ownership, poor marketing and a lousy team. And other U.S. cities, perhaps as many as nine or 10, are or soon will be on the market. Phoenix, which has Winnipeg’s former franchise, and Columbus, are among those that might be pried loose by Canadian investors.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...innipeg-is-canadas-redemption/article2030420/
1/3 of the teams for sale??? BTW the Leafs are one of them

 

[New User Name]

this story and the gloating in the G&M is beyond ridiculous, suggesting that several teams will come back "Home"



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...innipeg-is-canadas-redemption/article2030420/
1/3 of the teams for sale??? BTW the Leafs are one of them

They target a specific audience. Just like the producers of Hogans heroes did. I'd take gloating over making everyone else look stupid.

And if you call that gloating

 

[Duke749]

I can think of at least 1 reason why at least I would not want to play in Florida, the "ice", if you can call it that, sucks there, so what if the weather is so nice, it's too nice for good ice.

lol Yeah, if that was such a big factor no one would play in Boston. The biggest reason why players will not want to play in Florida is because the team has been awful for 10 years.

 

[worstfaceoffmanever]

These numbers seem like you're assuming they have to break even on ticket revenue alone.

No, what I'm assuming is actually the inverse: that their non-gate revenues will match those of other Canadian teams.

For example, Ottawa drew an average of 18,378 spectators at $59.74 a ticket, which would make for roughly $45M in gate revenues. To match that in an arena seating 15,015, Winnipeg would have to charge $73.12 for the average ticket. If Winnipeg can match Ottawa's broadcasting and non-hockey revenues (which shouldn't be tremendously difficult, since MTS Centre is one of the most popular concert venues in Canada), then the whole TNSE operation should turn a profit. The alternative is to charge Ottawa-level prices and do what other small markets do: set an internal budget, try to break even with hockey ops and qualify for a big chunk of revenue sharing to keep the team in the black.

 

[adolfz]

Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.
Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.

Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.
Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.

[Standard TMR Disclaimer]
Those numbers are from Team Marketing Report - which has been debunked numerous times here as being wildly inaccurate for many teams due to methodological flaws.


[/Standard TMR Disclaimer]

I now return you to your regularly scheduled weather reports ...

Ok, G&M accurate numbers for 06/07 for average price is 52 dollars, while Andrew's page gives 43 dollars. It's 18% difference meaning Winnipeg needs to sell tickets for 67 dollars to reach league's average. But it also means that other Canadian team's prices are higher (06/07 G&M states Edmonton at 61 while Andrew's at 51). So relatively it doesn't make significant difference if we compere Canadian spending