NHL may be prepared to eat its young

[kdb209]

Originally Posted by kdb209
Unfortunately, he's not really free at 25 either. He's an RFA with no arbitration rights - the Caps could low-ball him with an offer just a little bit higher than a Russian Team, then what. He can't even wait it out and become a UFA at 28 - Group III FA requires 4 years in the NHL in addition to the age limit.

Is your goal to get him into the league or out of it??

Its hard to tell.

So after waiting for 7 years for him to show up the Caps play hard ball with him.

At which time he might be one of the best players in the world at that age.

I was just pointing out that if AO's plans were to play in Russia to avoid the ELS restrictions and then come over and expect an immediate mega bucks ($4M-$6M) payday it is a risky strategy. If he thinks he can command that kind of salary at 25, he would do much better to sign now (19) and he'd already have 3 seasons post ELS when he hit 25, would have a proven NHL track record, be arbitration eligible, and probably sign for more at 25 than if he just came over from Russia then. And based on comments from the Caps GM, that sounds exactly what he is planning to do.

 

[ryz]

A example could be a good young player, a kid drafted in the middle of the 1st round. He have the potential to turn into a decent player. But his first 2 years are pretty tough. He is still highly regarded in his home country and gets a good offer, lets say 2m a year in russia. There is a good chance that kid might opt for a safe enviorment in his hometown. Like many russians have done the last couple of years.

I think it would be an NHL GM's job to make sure they are drafting a Russian kid who has every intention of comming over to NA. I think if an attitude like this becomes prevalent with Russian players over the next few years you would find that not many Russians at all would even be drafted on draft day. Why waste a 1st round pick on a Russian kid that may very well never come over due to these issues when you could pick up a Canadian or American kid that has dreamed of playing in the NHL since he was 5 yrs old?

Kind of a double edged sword. A tough choice would have to be made.

 

[Mess]

I was just pointing out that if AO's plans were to play in Russia to avoid the ELS restrictions and then come over and expect an immediate mega bucks ($4M-$6M) payday it is a risky strategy. If he thinks he can command that kind of salary at 25, he would do much better to sign now (19) and he'd already have 3 seasons post ELS when he hit 25, would have a proven NHL track record, be arbitration eligible, and probably sign for more at 25 than if he just came over from Russia then. And based on comments from the Caps GM, that sounds exactly what he is planning to do.

..

I don't think that is necessarily true at all ..

If he came over as a mature 25 year old avoiding the 850k base and making $2 mil in Russia instead, would harm him as you say.. He will play in the Olympics, World Championships, RSL etc and if he is as good as everyone believes he can be, then he will make that clear by his play the type of player he has become. heck he is already a world class player at 19 now in fact.

Sure your right to a point that the Caps could low ball him and they would not be obligated to pay him as you say $4 - $6 mil as a Star would receive.. but then even if he went through the ELS system all the CBA says as RFA is that the Caps are obligated to offer him is ELS + 10% as his second contact ..

If they did that Ovechkin could find himself in a contract dispute and head home instead anyways .. If it unfolded that way he is going to wish he stayed in Russia all along, rather then play for 850K base ELS..

The ELS system guarantees him nothing and each year he stays away he shortens his ELS contract up until he is 25.. If he gets the same money to play at home as a Star that would deserve $4 mil in the NHL where is the motivation to come over. The seasons are 1/2 the NHL to play in RSL so for the same money he plays 1/2 the games avoids travel, no culture shock, language issues ..

People have a tendency to believe NA players may not like the Euro leagues and change, but if you put yourself in a Euro shoes .. Its home and they feel far more comfortable there then venturing overseas .. If money is the issue and its the same in his home country NOTHING forcing him to venture overseas IMO .

Would you .. If you could earn the identical money in your own country would you seek employment overseas in a foreign country ??

 

[Chileiceman]

Now that there will be some sort of a salary cap, a rookie cap doesn't make that much sense to me. Why should a guy like Jason Doig make more money than Sidney Crosby?
Just coz there rookies doesn't mean they suck and should get paid less.With a salary cap GM's won't be overspending on rookies because they can't.

 

[Gee Wally]

Now that there will be some sort of a salary cap, a rookie cap doesn't make that much sense to me. Why should a guy like Jason Doig make more money than Sidney Crosby?
Just coz there rookies doesn't mean they suck and should get paid less.With a salary cap GM's won't be overspending on rookies because they can't.

In any Collective bargaining agreement , not just sports, it is typical to trade off entry level jobs since those folks are not yet members or part of the bargaining unit.
The bargaining is to get most for who is a member *today*.

It has nothing to do with talent , individuals, or anything else. It has to do with business and union contracts.

 

[kdb209]

..

Originally Posted by kdb209
I was just pointing out that if AO's plans were to play in Russia to avoid the ELS restrictions and then come over and expect an immediate mega bucks ($4M-$6M) payday it is a risky strategy. If he thinks he can command that kind of salary at 25, he would do much better to sign now (19) and he'd already have 3 seasons post ELS when he hit 25, would have a proven NHL track record, be arbitration eligible, and probably sign for more at 25 than if he just came over from Russia then. And based on comments from the Caps GM, that sounds exactly what he is planning to do.

I don't think that is necessarily true at all ..

If he came over as a mature 25 year old avoiding the 850k base and making $2 mil in Russia instead, would harm him as you say.. He will play in the Olympics, World Championships, RSL etc and if he is as good as everyone believes he can be, then he will make that clear by his play the type of player he has become. heck he is already a world class player at 19 now in fact.

Sure your right to a point that the Caps could low ball him and they would not be obligated to pay him as you say $4 - $6 mil as a Star would receive.. but then even if he went through the ELS system all the CBA says as RFA is that the Caps are obligated to offer him is ELS + 10% as his second contact ..

If they did that Ovechkin could find himself in a contract dispute and head home instead anyways .. If it unfolded that way he is going to wish he stayed in Russia all along, rather then play for 850K base ELS..

The ELS system guarantees him nothing and each year he stays away he shortens his ELS contract up until he is 25.. If he gets the same money to play at home as a Star that would deserve $4 mil in the NHL where is the motivation to come over. The seasons are 1/2 the NHL to play in RSL so for the same money he plays 1/2 the games avoids travel, no culture shock, language issues ..

People have a tendency to believe NA players may not like the Euro leagues and change, but if you put yourself in a Euro shoes .. Its home and they feel far more comfortable there then venturing overseas .. If money is the issue and its the same in his home country NOTHING forcing him to venture overseas IMO .

Would you .. If you could earn the identical money in your own country would you seek employment overseas in a foreign country ??

If the long term $$$ prospects were greater playing overseas (as well as the intangibles of working at the pinnacle of my profession), yes I would.

You talk about nothing being guaranteed under the ELS - well nothing is guaranteed in Russia either. Contracts are not guaranteed, and even if they were, he would be at the mercy of questionable court system. Things that NHL players take for granted like Insurance or world class medical care aren't the same (Just ask Viktor Kozlov).

If he signed now, he would be two years into being arbitration elligible by 25, so would have more leverage to get a mega buck contract than a first contract coming over at 25.

If he waits and comes over at 25, he is still an RFA with no arbitration rights, no NHL track record, and will have sacrificed a year of UFA status (assuming 28 yo as expected and the current 4 NHL Accrued Season requirement).

And players who hold out and play overseas for an extended period may find the teams with their NHL rights unwilling (or unable) to keep open the necessary cap space to accomadate them if and when they do. He comes over at 25 and the Caps say, we have $2.5M cap space available - take it or leave it.

 

[WC Handy*]

Right, but Ovechkin or whoever can join the NHL at 25 years old and be eligible for a $5 Million contract.
They no longer are limited to rookie contracts when they join the league at 25 years old.

So from 19 to 25, he can get maybe 12 Million tax free in Russia.
In the NHL, he might only get 12 Million (taxable) in North America.

It's a wash.

And after 25, he's free to bargain for whatever contract he likes.

The point is this: If the NHL has a salary cap, why even bother trying for a stricter rookie cap.

It's stupid.
If anything, they should loosen it up, just to make sure we don't lose rookies to other leagues.

where is the rule that says that 25 year olds arent subject to the same ELS?

 

[kdb209]

where is the rule that says that 25 year olds arent subject to the same ELS?

The CBA.

ARTICLE 9
Entry Level Compensation

9.1. Applicability and Duration. Effective with contracts entered into after the date of the 1995 Entry Draft:

...


b. The period covered by the Player Contract for every Rookie, and the number of years that such player will be in the Entry Level System and subject to the Compensation limits set out in Section 9.3, shall be as indicated on the chart immediately below, and during such period, the player shall be deemed to be a "Group I Player":

First Contract Signing Age Period Covered by First Contract
and Years in the Entry Level System
and Subject to Compensation Limits
18-21 3 years
22-23 2 years
24 1 year
25 and older No required number of years, not in the Entry Level System and not subject to limits on Compensation

It seems quite reasonable to expect similar limits in the new CBA also.

 

[Mess]

In any Collective bargaining agreement , not just sports, it is typical to trade off entry level jobs since those folks are not yet members or part of the bargaining unit.
The bargaining is to get most for who is a member *today*.

It has nothing to do with talent , individuals, or anything else. It has to do with business and union contracts.

That is true ..

Just to add .. Capping them within a Cap system is not a Union mandate , its an NHL request.

If players had a base Salary that is fine .. Not sure why you could not set league milestones that would reward a special play for their performance .. If Crosby wins the Calder and sets a modern day scoring record paying him the same as a an everyday player is not fair IMO .. The league benefits from his abilities in all 30 cities and TV contracts and gate receipts as fans pay to see him. In a small way that raises league revenue and the Hard Cap .. So really everyone gains by Crosby performance but Sidney himself. The league could be paying Yashin $7.5 mil for 25 goals and paying Crosby could get 850k for 40 goals..

The league should find a way to reward excellence and pay for performance and your age shouldn't be the only thing that determines your wage ..

Rick Nash was Team Canada's best player in the World Championships and leading goal scoring in the NHL yet, when he receives his next contract he will not be paid like a Star player that he is all because he is young .. Its an injustice that should really be fixed somehow in the CBA .. IMO ..

 

[Gee Wally]

That is true ..

Just to add .. Capping them within a Cap system is not a Union mandate , its an NHL request.

MO ..

correct , it isn't a mandate...but over the years I've been on many a negotiating team and it is normally the first union *throw away*.,, for that the Union will get *X*..possibly a better pention or something relatively minor.Never is it a deal breaker because it doesn't cover any card carrying members.

it's 101..

 

[gary69]

..

The ELS system guarantees him nothing and each year he stays away he shortens his ELS contract up until he is 25.. If he gets the same money to play at home as a Star that would deserve $4 mil in the NHL where is the motivation to come over. The seasons are 1/2 the NHL to play in RSL so for the same money he plays 1/2 the games avoids travel, no culture shock, language issues ..

And with that rookie cap, Ovechkin won't be playing many (if any) top-dollar seasons under the new CBA anyway, unless it's duration is for 10 years or more.

And who knows what the next CBA in the 2010's will look like, there might be another lockout...maybe he was "underpaid" for all those years waiting for a big payday that never came. Instead he could have made more money in Russia.

 

[Bruwinz37]

And with that rookie cap, Ovechkin won't be playing many (if any) top-dollar seasons under the new CBA anyway, unless it's duration is for 10 years or more.

And who knows what the next CBA in the 2010's will look like, there might be another lockout...maybe he was "underpaid" for all those years waiting for a big payday that never came. Instead he could have made more money in Russia.

Ovenchkin will still come over and so will most other Euro's. I mean seriously, there is a lot of money to be made in the US other than just their base salaries. Ovenchkin will come here, be one of the top players and have endorsement deals from a variety of places. Plus....get this....he gets to live in the US instead of Russia.....that is worth at least 2 million bucks in my mind. I seriously doubt that these guys are going to stay in Russia just because they wont be multi millionaires right away based on contracts.....unless endorsing wooden shoes pays more than I think.

 

[Mess]

If the long term $$$ prospects were greater playing overseas (as well as the intangibles of working at the pinnacle of my profession), yes I would.

You talk about nothing being guaranteed under the ELS - well nothing is guaranteed in Russia either. Contracts are not guaranteed, and even if they were, he would be at the mercy of questionable court system. Things that NHL players take for granted like Insurance or world class medical care aren't the same (Just ask Viktor Kozlov).

If he signed now, he would be two years into being arbitration elligible by 25, so would have more leverage to get a mega buck contract than a first contract coming over at 25.

If he waits and comes over at 25, he is still an RFA with no arbitration rights, no NHL track record, and will have sacrificed a year of UFA status (assuming 28 yo as expected and the current 4 NHL Accrued Season requirement).

And players who hold out and play overseas for an extended period may find the teams with their NHL rights unwilling (or unable) to keep open the necessary cap space to accomadate them if and when they do. He comes over at 25 and the Caps say, we have $2.5M cap space available - take it or leave it.

All your responses are like he is living in a vacuum though.

If the Caps can't fit or get a world star player in the line-up you are not open to reason that the Caps would either free up space for him or would trade him to another team to receive a very nice return.

Take it or leave it offer because of cap space seems like the least likely logical reasonable outcome IMO. If your point is that Washington's GM wouldn't be on the phone 100 times a year with his agent tying to getting him to arrive and they would certainly know well in advance, and if the agent knows what he his doing (which is not a stretch), then Ovechkin's contract could be the first one the Caps sign in the new off season when planning their team.

They will know his demands well before he even came over .. You make it sound like magically he is going to fly into town on his 25th birthday and say here I am and the GM saying sorry $2.5 mil is all I have. That is pretty unfair of how the whole NHL scene plays out each day .

Yashin pulled that stunt with his contract and now Ottawa has Chara and Spezza to show for the return. So no GM should/would sit on a player of his value for all those years anyways and wait for him to show up. IMO The team should find him endorsement deals or other ways to top up his ELS contract.

The NHL is doing this to themselves and they may have to pay the consequences. Its the players option and if he is making more in 1 year in Russia at $2.0 mil then he will make in 2 1/2 years in a ELS base contract based on 850K, then he would be silly to do that .. Each year he stays at home is another year off his ELS contract and equal to 2.5 years of NHL pay ..

He may not wait until 25, but he could also come over in 2 or 3 years and play a year or 2 at 22-23 with the prearranged deal with the Caps that what he loses in ELS the Caps have agreed to add to his first RFA contract to make it up to him, almost as deferred Salary if you prefer or a signing bonus on his next contract.

Also he is 19 now .. We are talking about avoiding ELS system at 25 years old .. Well this CBA is rumoured as 5-6 years in length and will also be expiring at that same time as his arrival time then. I am betting that the NHL realizes it made a big mistake with capping ELS contracts in a Hard Cap & linkage CBA and that it cost them their young Stars .. Ovechkin might be the perfect person to make that point and have it fixed in the next CBA..

 

[Mess]

correct , it isn't a mandate...but over the years I've been on many a negotiating team and it is normally the first union *throw away*.,, for that the Union will get *X*..possibly a better pention or something relatively minor.Never is it a deal breaker because it doesn't cover any card carrying members.

it's 101..

Agreed, not questioning the way it happens .. Certainly non members are the first to be sacrificed for concessions elsewhere .. It also makes sense in that the smaller the ELS the more money in a CAP system for PROVEN players .. Which I am also saying is right ..

I guess I am questioning the bonus capping system and not the base contract cap .. If all bonus count towards the cap what does it matter is Ovechkin is getting rewarded for performance at a ELS age is my point .. Same hard cap and no benefit to the team as to who gets the bonus .. Heck there is no rule that a standard players contract could be tied to a common Bonus structure system in the CBA that includes the preset negotiated milestones and then bonuses given out as earned .. That would solve the problem and a new ELS player would not get the bonus unless he earned it, so comparisons to what other rookies got would be irrelevant .

 

[DaveMatthew]

it looks like the clock will be set back 10 years for entry-level salaries, to $850,000, what they were when they were introduced in the previous agreement. The owners are demanding that total salary and bonuses be limited to a total of $1.2-million a year, while the union has offered a total cap of $1.7-million.

Under the old deal, entry-level players were limited to $1.3-million in salary and signing bonuses, but some, including Kovalchuk, Dany Heatley, Rick Nash and Joe Thornton, had the opportunity to make millions more in performance bonuses.

Of course the agents such as Pat Brisson are not not happy

"I don't know what will come out of the negotiations but I firmly believe if an entry-level player proves exceptional on the ice, he sure deserves more than $850,000 a year," said player agent Pat Brisson, who represents Crosby and Evgeny Malkin, who was the No. 2 pick overall behind Ovechkin in the 2004 NHL entry draft.

"You can count on your hands the number of players who can do that," Brisson added, arguing that the union should demand exceptions to the cap for young players who quickly establish themselves as stars.

"I hope they fight for it. There will be kids, especially Europeans, who will stay in Europe if the entry level is too restrictive."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050610.wxnhlcba10/BNStory/Sports/

A total $1.7 million max cap with salary plus performance bonuses does not sound that bad

The NHL should adopt an NFL style system. The money is bigger when you are drafted in the top 5, and then decreases.

 

[HockeyCritter]

I thought that there was some system in place in the old CBA . . . the higher you were drafted the larger the base salary.

 

[Sp5618]

I think too many North Americans (and I am one) assume that everyone in the world would prefer to be here. You cannot make that assumption. People in Europe have microwaves now, satellite TV, cars, cell phones...and even electricity and plumbing!!

Seriously though, there is something called "culture shock" that affects all but the most robust transplants. It is worse the greater the differences between cultures. It is worse yet if the language is different as well. If a "typical" Canadian or American moved to Russia, they'd have a heck of a time adjusting. The Russians have an equally hard time adjusting here too. It takes most people a good 2-3 years to really make the change. I lived overseas for a time and despite all my training and preparation for that very thing...it was really, really hard. And I was in a Western European country btw.

We cannot assume that our lifestyle is always the better one. It has nothing to do with our measure or their measure of what is good. It is different...that is all.

 

[f1nn]

Why don't you stick to something you know anything about? Or anything but hockey?

I am sure the Red Wings for example don't think Europe is a threat, or what do you think?

Just because Ovechkin will play in the USA it doesn't mean some really decent players will opt to stay at home or return after a year, with 3 years of 850k left, this will hurt the talent pool in the NHL. This is a fact, you can call people dreamers left and right and bring up polls ect. But another fact is that you time after time proves that you don't know anything about the game.

You have one big problem, it is that you think Finland is equal to Europe. Just becuase finnish/swedish kids won't stay at home it doesn't mean that Russians won't.

The SM-liiga is one of the worst hockey leagues in europe. 4th liners from the SEL goes there and becomes stars. Franchise players from the SM-liiga goes to the SEL and becomes 4th liners. Mediocre AHL/ECHL players goes to the SM-liiga and becomes mega stars. The Finnish NHL players opted to play in the SEL over their home country. You can't look at the SM-liiga and draw any parallels in any subject.

and you say pepper doesn't know anything about hockey? why don't you name 5 4th line SEL players that are stars in the SM-Liiga?

 

[f1nn]

When you said Europe isn't a threat, you refeered to something, right? Just about anyone following hockey knows that it(a low entery level cap for 4 years) could turn into a problem.



Like I said before everybody that knows squat about the game knows this could be a problem. I am sure that this is something that even concerns the NHL and NHLPA too. Everybody knows that 850k is a good cap, in general, but might be a problem in some case's. That could hurt the league in the end, and our teams as fans.



What world are you from? This is a hockey discussion board. How serious do you take it? You jump into another thread about rulechanges and says that I am wrong and that you have some "poll" from a finnishpaper to prove it, I would love to see that poll. I don't know if you think you are macho for beeing able to write in english and starting arguments on the internet.



The only thing I have a problem is when you show up in a ton of threads with extremely stuipid remarks and keeps refering to you beeing from finland and that must mean that you know it all. You never discuss anything, you just states that you are right and everyone else is wrong, not once but with 20 posts in a thread.

hmm funny how you skipped the part about naming 4th liners and ECHL players that are stars in the FEL

 

[Pepper]

Don't know about you but my enviroment ain't too shabby. No serious crimes either. You know there is more to America than ghettoes and smog factories.

Yes, I was talking about the big picture, over-generalisation to make a point.

Of course there are places in USA which are nicer than downtown Detroit, my point was that in general Nordic countries are better in those regards I mentioned.

 

[Pepper]

When you said Europe isn't a threat, you refeered to something, right? Just about anyone following hockey knows that it(a low entery level cap for 4 years) could turn into a problem.

I said Europe is not a threat and gave 2-3 examples, how hard is that to figure out?

Please provide those 'anyones' who have said that low rookie cap could become a problem, time starts now.

Like I said before everybody that knows squat about the game knows this could be a problem. I am sure that this is something that even concerns the NHL and NHLPA too. Everybody knows that 850k is a good cap, in general, but might be a problem in some case's. That could hurt the league in the end, and our teams as fans.

NHL's proposal for rookie cap was 1.2M, pay attention.

What world are you from?

I'm on planet earth, you?

This is a hockey discussion board. How serious do you take it?

I take this board seriously because there are lots of intelligent discussions. However you will probably find yourself not being taken seriously if you keep embarassing yourself here.

You jump into another thread about rulechanges and says that I am wrong and that you have some "poll" from a finnishpaper to prove it, I would love to see that poll.

Maybe some other finnish poster can provide you the scan of the poll, I don't have it. Others have seen it as well, as you should have seen in that other thread. I didn't say you're wrong, I say that you have no credible evidence to back up your claims that removing redline improves the game.

 

[Pepper]

hmm funny how you skipped the part about naming 4th liners and ECHL players that are stars in the FEL

He can't do it so he's not gonna reply to it, he has proved he has no clue about hockey outside SEL so it's not worth trying to knock some sense in to him.

 

[Ola]

He can't do it so he's not gonna reply to it, he has proved he has no clue about hockey outside SEL so it's not worth trying to knock some sense in to him.

lol, why are you so pissed at me for learning you something about the game? How about Stefan Öhman&Josef Boummedienne cut from his team in sweden.

Why don't you mention one swede in the sm-liiga and I tell you what line he played on in Sweden, it will be on a 3rd or 4th line. And if you can mention the name of a hockey player you have atleast proven that you once in your life actually have seen a hockey game. You are so far the least knowledgeble hockey fan I've ever met.

 

[Pepper]

lol, why are you so pissed at me for learning you something about the game? How about Stefan Öhman&Josef Boummedienne cut from his team in sweden.

You mean the same Boumedienne who has 47 NHL-games and what 200 AHL-games under his belt?

Now that's a good example

Why don't you mention one swede in the sm-liiga and I tell you what line he played on in Sweden

Ok, start with Joakim Eriksson.

And if you can mention the name of a hockey player you have atleast proven that you once in your life actually have seen a hockey game. You are so far the least knowledgeble hockey fan I've ever met.

tsk tsk, I mean I can understand if you feel frustrated for getting your ass kicked here over and over again but really, you'll pop a vein before you turn 20 if you keep kicking yourself like that.

 

[THUOT!]

I guess I am questioning the bonus capping system and not the base contract cap .. If all bonus count towards the cap what does it matter is Ovechkin is getting rewarded for performance at a ELS age is my point .. Same hard cap and no benefit to the team as to who gets the bonus .. Heck there is no rule that a standard players contract could be tied to a common Bonus structure system in the CBA that includes the preset negotiated milestones and then bonuses given out as earned .. That would solve the problem and a new ELS player would not get the bonus unless he earned it, so comparisons to what other rookies got would be irrelevant .

Again, it`s more of the same, following Gee Wally's argument... If the bonus money counts against the cap, knowing that the PA wants to maximize the amount of money available under the cap for the current players, they'll again throw the rookies under the bus and have their bonuses capped as well.

The cap is obviously benefitting the NHL more, but I'm thinking the cap within a cap for rookies benefits the current NHL players more than it does benefit the league. I'm sure the PA pushed for this more than the NHL did, when it was made sure a salary cap would be in place, as their current members are more important than the new ones.