NHL may be prepared to eat its young

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by RangerBoy, Jun 10, 2005.

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  1. RangerBoy

    RangerBoy TRUST THE PROCESS

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    it looks like the clock will be set back 10 years for entry-level salaries, to $850,000, what they were when they were introduced in the previous agreement. The owners are demanding that total salary and bonuses be limited to a total of $1.2-million a year, while the union has offered a total cap of $1.7-million.

    Under the old deal, entry-level players were limited to $1.3-million in salary and signing bonuses, but some, including Kovalchuk, Dany Heatley, Rick Nash and Joe Thornton, had the opportunity to make millions more in performance bonuses
    .

    Of course the agents such as Pat Brisson are not not happy

    "I don't know what will come out of the negotiations but I firmly believe if an entry-level player proves exceptional on the ice, he sure deserves more than $850,000 a year," said player agent Pat Brisson, who represents Crosby and Evgeny Malkin, who was the No. 2 pick overall behind Ovechkin in the 2004 NHL entry draft.

    "You can count on your hands the number of players who can do that," Brisson added, arguing that the union should demand exceptions to the cap for young players who quickly establish themselves as stars.

    "I hope they fight for it. There will be kids, especially Europeans, who will stay in Europe if the entry level is too restrictive."


    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050610.wxnhlcba10/BNStory/Sports/

    A total $1.7 million max cap with salary plus performance bonuses does not sound that bad
     
  2. tantalum

    tantalum Registered User

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    They will make more....about double that when all is said and done. Will some players choose to remain in Europe? Yeah they probably will but is that such a horrible thing? Perhaps it would be best to see some of these kids develop a little longer in the mens leagues of Europe before coming over.

    It's easy to sit there and say this and that but again this is a situation that before making any sort of legitimate comment we need to know the exact wording things, how European players will be dealt with etc etc etc.

    The only thing we do know with any sort of certainty is that in the end a player will be able to make more money in the NHL than he will anywhere else for his career. Does a player suck it up making a measly $1 mil for a few years with a larger return on the horizon? Or does he play in Europe for big money for a few years and come over later? It's a choice but in the end the only players we are talking about here are the Kovalchuk's, Ovechkin's and Crosby's. Those are the only types of players that may get big money in Europe. They are also the types of players that most likely gravitate to where the greatest competition is.
     
  3. arnie

    arnie Registered User

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    I wonder if Brisson thinks that Yashin desrves to have his salary cut by 3/4 because he stinks. Or Jagr's salary shouldf be cut in half. Yeah, right

    It's the same or story with these the NHLPA and agents; players always deserve more, but somehow they never desrve less. They've spent years find every way they can to extort monery from teams without regard to anything. Now tghe tide has turned and they start appealling to fairness. Given me a break.
     
  4. barnburner

    barnburner Registered User

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    I'm 100% in favor of this cap for rookies. I don't care how good they are - let them earn their way. Whatever big money there is available should be going to the players that have paid their dues and proven themselves. Sure Crosby appears to be a special case, but, if he is indeed that special, he will make a fortune on endorsements, commercials, etc even as a rookie.
    The loss of any or all of the Euro players is somthing I can live with.

    Isn't this writer the same one that had the "team by team cap" story? So, maybe we should take this with a grain of salt also, but I do hope it's true.
     
  5. Pepper

    Pepper Registered User

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    Anyone who really thinks Europe is a 'threat', stealing young prospects because of the proposed rookie cap, is dreaming.
     
  6. pei fan

    pei fan Registered User

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    The only threat I think would be for a few of the young Russian superstars.

    As far as the NHL eating it's young I think it's more of a case of the NHLPA
    eating its young.
     
  7. MojoJojo

    MojoJojo Registered User

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    Over on the Russian board they are talking about a 1.5 million dollar (US) offer for Ovechkin to play for Metallurg, and a 2 mil offer from AK Bars. Apparently there are several other teams also willing to pay over the proposed rookie minimum as well. He may be better off in the long run to go tot he NHL, but they are sure making it tempting for him to stay in Russia.
     
  8. Hasbro

    Hasbro Can He Skate?! Sponsor

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    If a Euro prospect is good enough, eventualy they'll get an offer. Delayed entry into the league might not be a bad thing.
     
  9. CornKicker

    CornKicker Tied with Lander G's

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    i am not positive on how the rookie cap goes. do they have to sign it for three - four years or can they just sign for 1 year at the rookie cap and then after their rookie season re-sign a different deal?
     
  10. WC Handy*

    WC Handy* Guest

    The fact that that's all they can offer says plenty. Whether Ovechkin is 30 or 22 when he comes to the USA, he's gonna start off with the rookie minimum. So he's much better of taking $1.7M for the next three years and then cashing in than taking $2M now before he goes and makes $1.7M for three years.
     
  11. ceber

    ceber Registered User

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    That's what I was wondering. Easy solution for a good agent: just negotiate a one-year deal, let your exceptional player prove himself, and then get a bigger deal for the following seasons.
     
  12. WC Handy*

    WC Handy* Guest

    Under the previous CBA it was 3 years. But, there has been talk about making it 4 years in this CBA.
     
  13. MojoJojo

    MojoJojo Registered User

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    and by 1.7 you mean the cap the players association is proposing. You cant argue for the NHL while using the number the PA is fighting for. And if second contracts are depressed as well (by eliminating the possibility of holdouts), who's to say that he has any clout to demand more than 2 mil until he is in his mid twenties? Probably only a handful of prospects will ever have this option, but it is still bad for the NHL if the Caps and Pens cant sign their top prospects.
     
  14. NYR469

    NYR469 Registered User

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    if you think it isn't a threat then you are the one that is dreaming, there are teams in europe sick of losing players to the nhl who are willing to pay big $$ to get the stars to stay. you might not see north american guys head over there but you will see more europeans staying if the rookie cap is too low.

    if you were alexander ovechkin and you had the option of making $2 mil US to play in russia and stay with your friends, family, etc or leave your friends and family behind, move to an unknown country to make LESS $$ what would you do?? would you with washington for less $$ than you could make in your hometown??

    i'm not saying that he should make $5 mil off the bat, but if you make the cap too low without the possibility of earning more thru bonuses then you eliminate a huge motivation to come over to north america in the first place.

    and its true that this won't effect everyone, it will only effect a select few because not everyone is going to get that kind of $$ in europe and not every rookie gets the max anyway but the select few that it does effect are the most important ones. if oveckin and malkin stay in russia that hurts the league, the fact that some 5th rounder signs without a problem doesn't make up for that.

    will every euro run back to europe?? of course not...but if the nhl doesn't offer more $$ there will be players that do that. (and by more $$ i mean more than they could make at home)
     
  15. NYR469

    NYR469 Registered User

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    they will set the rookie cap at either 3 or 4 years and then basically every entry level contract will be for those 3 or 4 years (like under the old cba) with only question being how much $$ (not everyone gets the max)...why would a team give a 1 year deal and then have to give the guy a raise when they can get him at the low price for 3-4 years?
     
  16. NYR469

    NYR469 Registered User

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    I think the best way to avoid crazy bonuses like the thornton deal but to also provide the opportunity to earn more for the exceptional player to keep everyone happy is to set the minimum requirements for bonuses in the cba.

    under the old cba you could set the performance bonus at anything you want. you could set a $1 mil bonus after the guy scores his 1st goal (making it virtually guaranteed $$ disguised as a bonus) if you want.

    why not set up minimums like for a goal scoring bonus the player must score 25 goals. teams can set the target higher but it can't go lower...

    i highly doubt anyone would have a problem with ovechkin collecting extra $$ if he steps in scores 28 goals, 65 points and wins the calder. they would have a problem though if he got that $$ scoring 12 goals and only got it cause he was the top pick.

    basically make it so they can't earn the bonuses just by showing up. but if they end up being star players and the best players on their team within the first few years they can get the $$. situations were guys like kovalchuk and nash are the top scorers in the league before turning 22 are rare, but a situation like this would take care of those guys while preventing lesser players from cashing in.
     
  17. Pepper

    Pepper Registered User

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    I'm from Europe, I think I have a slightly better view of the situation than most others here. Yes, European teams are sick of losing players but there's nothing they can do, only certain russian teams have the money to reach even the same amount of zeroes as NHL offers and they can't give those kind of offers to many players. Finnish and swedish young players most likely won't give Russian league any thought as they are used to certain level of non-material quality of living you have tough time finding in Russia.

    Let's do some math here:

    Russia:

    let's say he gets $2M per year for 10 years. The $2M is most likely a gross overestimation but for the sake of argument, let's use that.

    Career: $20M

    NHL:

    (4 x 1.2M) + (6 x 5M) ) = $34.8M. So he gets nearly double the money even if he plays only 10 years (more like plays more) and even he gets 'only' $5M (even under salary cap he might get $6M or more).

    NHLPA's proposal of 1.7M per year means only $2M more over the career so the difference is minimal.

    Personally I don't mind a $1.7M rookie cap as long as there's a hard cap for total salary in place, Rangers can give Crosby $10M per year rookie deal for all I care, they just screw their team badly if they do that.
     
  18. WC Handy*

    WC Handy* Guest

    I didn't argue for the NHL's number because I didn't read the article correctly. Whether it's $1.7M or $1.2M, he's still better off getting his rookie cap years out of the way as soon as possible.

    For every year he plays in Russia at $2M, that's fewer years that he'll play here at the end of his career for $6M.
     
  19. ceber

    ceber Registered User

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    Well obviously the team wouldn't want to do that. That's why you hire an agent. If there isn't a rule that says a rookie contract _must_ be 3 years in length, then the agent can negotiate a 1 year deal and get his client a payoff sooner. Then there's no need to mess with the rookie cap numbers just for the very few players who become impact players in the first three years of their professional career.
     
  20. NYR469

    NYR469 Registered User

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    that is another good point, if there is a hard cap on the team then it almost makes the rookie cap pointless because as you said if you offered crosby $10 mil then you'd be screwed trying to field a team. as long as you stay under the cap the league shouldn't care how you split up the $$ cause if you split it up stupidly you are only hurting yourself.
     
  21. WC Handy*

    WC Handy* Guest

    The rookie cap is important in a capped league because the demands of a player could prevent the team from being able to fit his contract under the cap at all. Plus, we don't want what is happening in baseball to happen in the NHL where teams don't draft the best players because their salary demands are so outrageous.
     
  22. Ola

    Ola Registered User Sponsor

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    Why don't you stick to something you know anything about? Or anything but hockey?

    I am sure the Red Wings for example don't think Europe is a threat, or what do you think?

    Just because Ovechkin will play in the USA it doesn't mean some really decent players will opt to stay at home or return after a year, with 3 years of 850k left, this will hurt the talent pool in the NHL. This is a fact, you can call people dreamers left and right and bring up polls ect. But another fact is that you time after time proves that you don't know anything about the game.

    You have one big problem, it is that you think Finland is equal to Europe. Just becuase finnish/swedish kids won't stay at home it doesn't mean that Russians won't.

    The SM-liiga is one of the worst hockey leagues in europe. 4th liners from the SEL goes there and becomes stars. Franchise players from the SM-liiga goes to the SEL and becomes 4th liners. Mediocre AHL/ECHL players goes to the SM-liiga and becomes mega stars. The Finnish NHL players opted to play in the SEL over their home country. You can't look at the SM-liiga and draw any parallels in any subject.
     
  23. MojoJojo

    MojoJojo Registered User

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    Another piece to all this is whether he would ever be able to make that much as a RFA in a cap system. Assuming the NHL gets all that they want: a 30 million dollar hard cap, no more holdouts, no more arbitration, 1.2 mil rookie cap, it is not at all clear that Ovechkin wouldnt be better off playing in Russia until he is a free agent or until a new CBA. Even if he were not to make quite as much money, there are other considerations such as family, language, national pride, etc.. Its just a consequence of the NHL trying to keep their costs artificially low that they risk losing some high end talent.

    Anyway, I find it Ironic that the Russians are giving us a lesson in the free market.
     
  24. X0ssbar

    X0ssbar Guest

    I think everyone is concentrating to much on the exemption to the rule rather than the rule itself when it comes to rookies.

    A first round draft choice is more likely to be a bust than a success.

    The bottom line is that rookies get thrown under the bus because they haven't proved anything at the Pro level. I don't care if your name is Crosby or Ovechkin - until they prove it at the pro level they should be treated the same as any other rookie.

    The NHL and NHLPA would much rather see dollars go to players who have paid their dues and proven their worth at the Pro level rather than see these dollars get allocated to a prospect who may or may not even pan out at the NHL level.

    Once a rookie produces at the pro-level they will most certainly be paid accordingly.

    I'm not worried about the Europe factor - players want to play in the best league in the world and there is no doubt who holds that title.
     
    Last edited by moderator : Jun 10, 2005
  25. dolfanar

    dolfanar Registered User

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    Sorry bud, if the NHLPA wanted a "free market" they would disband and let the players fend for themselves. That would be entertaining.
     
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