NHL may be prepared to eat its young

[Magnus Fulgur]

Rookies

It's okay if the Euro rookies stay away. It will allow more connection to US college players and Canadian junior talent...which will strengthen interest in the NHL.

$850K is a good entry level wage out of college.

 

[WC Handy*]

Another piece to all this is whether he would ever be able to make that much as a RFA in a cap system. Assuming the NHL gets all that they want: a 30 million dollar hard cap, no more holdouts, no more arbitration, 1.2 mil rookie cap, it is not at all clear that Ovechkin wouldnt be better off playing in Russia until he is a free agent or until a new CBA. Even if he were not to make quite as much money, there are other considerations such as family, language, national pride, etc.. Its just a consequence of the NHL trying to keep their costs artificially low that they risk losing some high end talent.

Anyway, I find it Ironic that the Russians are giving us a lesson in the free market.

First of all, not only is the NHL not looking for no more arbitration (they want 2 way arbitration), but they haven't ever asked for a $30M cap.

Secondly, Ovechkin would never become a free agent without signing with an NHL team. The rights of european draft picks belong to the drafting team until he reaches UFA status at whatever age they agree upon.

 

[Pepper]

Why don't you stick to something you know anything about? Or anything but hockey?

Classy start to the post right there.

You have one big problem, it is that you think Finland is equal to Europe. Just becuase finnish/swedish kids won't stay at home it doesn't mean that Russians won't.

The SM-liiga is one of the worst hockey leagues in europe. 4th liners from the SEL goes there and becomes stars. Franchise players from the SM-liiga goes to the SEL and becomes 4th liners. Mediocre AHL/ECHL players goes to the SM-liiga and becomes mega stars. The Finnish NHL players opted to play in the SEL over their home country. You can't look at the SM-liiga and draw any parallels in any subject.

You have so many factual errors in your post that I don't really know where to start...

1) I didn't equal Finland to Europe in any point. Show where I did that or admit that you were clearly wrong.

2) I didn't deny that russian kids might stay at home but they do that already nowadays, new CBA won't change that.

3) 'one of the worst hockey leagues in Europe'?? lmao. This is a good one. Just because SEL and RSL were ahead this year doesn't make it one of the worst.

4) which franchise players from SM-liiga are now 4th liners in SEL? Recent examples please.

5) Which mediocre superstars from ECHL became megastars in FEL?

6) Finnish players played in SEL purely for tax reasons. Hockey players in Sweden get better tax treatment as they can defer part of their salary to later years meaning their tax-% is slower. In Finland players can't do that.

Seriously Ola, just because you were humiliated in the 'remove redline' -argument doesn't mean you have to embarass yourself here as well.

You're over your head in this, I recommend you stick to SEL topics where you might have something to contribute.

 

[HSHS]

I didn't argue for the NHL's number because I didn't read the article correctly. Whether it's $1.7M or $1.2M, he's still better off getting his rookie cap years out of the way as soon as possible.

For every year he plays in Russia at $2M, that's fewer years that he'll play here at the end of his career for $6M.[/QUOTE]



Well said.... I was trying to think of how to put it, but this is short, direct, and clear.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

I don't care how good they are - let them earn their way. Whatever big money there is available should be going to the players that have paid their dues and proven themselves. .

NO offense, but this line of thinking, shared by many on these boards, is hogwash.

Salaries aren't only about performance and statistic.

If you don't want Crosby and Ovechkin and the hype/merchandising/ticketsales the bring, then leave them for the owner who appreciates them.

I am getting so sick and tired of reading opinions about why so and so shouldn't make so much money.
Invariably, they come with the "if you don't like it, leave it).

It's so funny watching guys in the draft threads trip over themselves arguing why their team deserves a better shot at Crosby.
But over here, the same people say he's not worth $1.7Million a year.

It's moronic.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Anyone who really thinks Europe is a 'threat', stealing young prospects because of the proposed rookie cap, is dreaming.

I'd say there is a pretty good chance Malkin and Ovechkin won't be playing in the NHL next season if there is a $850,000 rookie cap.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I think that it will make for some interesting trash talking from the second and third year players to the rookies.

"How much you makin' again? Ouch!"

 

[dem]

I think that it will make for some interesting trash talking from the second and third year players to the rookies.

"How much you makin' again? Ouch!"

I'm pretty sure you could pay rookies $100,000 and they would be over the moon if there wasnt an agent whispering in his ear. Even 100g is TONS for a kid whos 18-22.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I'd say there is a pretty good chance Malkin and Ovechkin won't be playing in the NHL next season if there is a $850,000 rookie cap.

That's assuming that the Russian league is going to pay undeveloped prospects more than that, which is highly unlikely.

 

[Pepper]

I'd say there is a pretty good chance Malkin and Ovechkin won't be playing in the NHL next season if there is a $850,000 rookie cap.

Wasn't the rookie cap 1.2M under NHL's propsal (850K + 350K in bonuses)?

 

[HSHS]

Wasn't the rookie cap 1.2M under NHL's propsal (850K + 350K in bonuses)?

STOP TALKING FACTS!!!

 

[Sp5618]

More than rookies may be lost...

Okay, some facts are missing in these discussions.

Someone mentioned the Red Wings. Datsyuk has signed with Dynamo with a "no out" clause unless a CBA is reached by July. The Red Wings already have too much committed with Lidstrom, Hatcher, and all others- including the 24% rollback - before several key signings are made, including Datsyuk. With a reported $36 million cap, somebody has to get cut or do some serious renegotiation.

Secondly, the money these guys get in Russia is Income Tax Free. So $2 million is a lot more than $1.2-$1.7 at a US tax bracket of what?? Factor that in as well. The incentive has to be there for these youngsters to leave their homeland, family, etc. They know the way of life there so no big adjustment is needed.

As for the Pens and Caps. They just lost their first round picks, something they were counting on to build a winner. How do they get that back...w/o spending more than they can afford?

 

[Pepper]

As for the Pens and Caps. They just lost their first round picks, something they were counting on to build a winner. How do they get that back...w/o spending more than they can afford?

Ummmm how did Caps and Pens lose their first round picks?

 

[Sp5618]

Ummmm how did Caps and Pens lose their first round picks?

I am assuming that if Ovechkin and Malkin do not sign, these teams will not have these players' services, thus their first round picks from '04 were lost. No one knows if/when they would come over, but we do know that the Pens and Caps don't get to do the draft over again.

I also assume that if someone drafts Crosby, they probably hope he will actually sign with an NHL team and make his services available to that team. At least with Crosby, we hope he prefers NA over playing elsewhere as would be the more natural reaction.

 

[blitzkriegs]

Okay, some facts are missing in these discussions.

Someone mentioned the Red Wings. Datsyuk has signed with Dynamo with a "no out" clause unless a CBA is reached by July. The Red Wings already have too much committed with Lidstrom, Hatcher, and all others- including the 24% rollback - before several key signings are made, including Datsyuk. With a reported $36 million cap, somebody has to get cut or do some serious renegotiation.

Secondly, the money these guys get in Russia is Income Tax Free. So $2 million is a lot more than $1.2-$1.7 at a US tax bracket of what?? Factor that in as well. The incentive has to be there for these youngsters to leave their homeland, family, etc. They know the way of life there so no big adjustment is needed.

As for the Pens and Caps. They just lost their first round picks, something they were counting on to build a winner. How do they get that back...w/o spending more than they can afford?

For one, who cares if Malkin, Ovehckin don't want to play for 850K? Their problem, not mine.

Let them play for 1.5 mil in their club leagues in their home country because they are comfortable with their families. blah...blah..blah...

Apparently foreign players no longer have a dream of playing the in nhl because of money? the best league in the world? Please...

Seems to me that Forsberg, Lidstrom, and Jonsson have all seriously 'considered' returning home in the past, but have all never made the move. Apparently lucrative NHL contracts, SC drives, posh US living, and NHL competition have more than persuaded players to stick in the NHL.

And under the new cap, the big $ 4-6 mil per player will still be there for elite players. Apparently, agents still feel elite prospect = elite NHL player. Sorry, When you earn it, you make it.

Ex. Palffy did not make anywhere near the NHL cap (before the r-cap was made). Somehow he's MADE IT and has earned over 50 mil in the US. Tell me where some Euro is going to get that???? Hasek came out of retirement form his 'i wanna raise my family in the Czech TWICE, to return to the NHL for $.

The Euro leagues do NOT have the same amount of $ the NHL has to pay these players.

 

[Sp5618]

For one, who cares if Malkin, Ovehckin don't want to play for 850K? Their problem, not mine.

Let them play for 1.5 mil in their club leagues in their home country because they are comfortable with their families. blah...blah..blah...

Apparently foreign players no longer have a dream of playing the in nhl because of money? the best league in the world? Please...

Seems to me that Forsberg, Lidstrom, and Jonsson have all seriously 'considered' returning home in the past, but have all never made the move. Apparently lucrative NHL contracts, SC drives, posh US living, and NHL competition have more than persuaded players to stick in the NHL.

And under the new cap, the big $ 4-6 mil per player will still be there for elite players. Apparently, agents steal feel elite prospect = elite NHL player. When you earn it, you make it.

Ex. Palffy did not make anywhere near the NHL cap (before the r-cap was made). Somehow he's MADE IT and has earned over 50 mil in the US. Tell me where some Euro is going to get that????

I guess I'm thinking the Pens and Caps may care if these guys don't come over, seeing that they blew pick #1-2 on them.

The point isn't that "we" care, or what we think these guys should get paid. There is a market outside the NHL for some players, and they may choose that course for myriad reasons.

The point is that NHL teams consider their draft picks investments in their future. If it were no big deal, why would there be so much controversy over how to set up this year's draft (even w/o Crosby there, there'd be controversy). Why would you trade developed talent for draft picks (or why CAN you trade developed talent for draft picks)?

Everyone using these boards for discussions points out that the best way to build a contender is through good scouting/drafting, and development thereafter, not by buying old talent. So if your draft picks don't even show up, you just lost years of momentum...

 

[MePutPuckInNet]

I agree with Newsguyone and NYR469.

There's an awful lot of doublespeak around here regarding rookie salaries. Most seem so blinded by their own personal financial circumstances that they fail to reason on the principal of the matter.

If a player, EVEN a rookie, makes a significant contribution to his team [whether it be by point production, defensive ability or whatever], he damn well should be compensated for it accordingly in harmony with the cap system.

As for WC Handy's comment: "The rookie cap is important in a capped league because the demands of a player could prevent the team from being able to fit his contract under the cap at all. Plus, we don't want what is happening in baseball to happen in the NHL where teams don't draft the best players because their salary demands are so outrageous".

Honestly, isn't that the idea behind a cap? Why should rookies be even further stymied? I think a rookie cap, on top of a team salary cap, is totally bogus. And to propose that not only should they be boxed in to a mere pittance of the team cap allowance, but to lock them in for an ADDITIONAL year??? Jesus....that pisses me off.

All the people claiming that the rookies will be able to make up for it "later" in their career...I ask you, WHEN? It sure as hell won't be under the "new NHL". Whatever the new CBA terms will be, the days of players earning 5-6 million a year are OVER.

I'm certainly not suggesting that an unproven player should be handed the keys to the kingdom. But for God's sake....a rookie who succeeds in proving himself within the first 3 [or 4] years of his pro career has every right to expect to be compensated fairly.

It's clear to me that the NHL is, most definitely, "prepared to eat their young". Not only are they going to "eat them", but they are suggesting that it's for their own good as well.

The business idiocy of the GM's and owners has allowed the veteran players' gluttony for money to suck the game dry. And now they're going to make the young guys pay for their mistakes.

It sickens me. What a bunch of bastards. I puke on all of them. And I hope they burn in hell.

 

[Pepper]

I am assuming that if Ovechkin and Malkin do not sign, these teams will not have these players' services, thus their first round picks from '04 were lost. No one knows if/when they would come over, but we do know that the Pens and Caps don't get to do the draft over again.

They will retain their player rights so unless Ovechkin and Malkin plan to play their whole careers in Russia (extremely unlikely), they won't just lose their picks.

 

[s7ark]

Any agent in the business today will be the first to point out to these 18 year old kids that even though they may make more in the short term in Russia, they will make much much more down the road in the NHL. That coupled with the fact that these are competitve guys who want to play against the best competition in the world, I don't see too many guys staying in Russia.

SEL and FEL can't offer enough money for guys to stay, and in Russia very, VERY few guys are paid in the $2 million range, so basically unless you are an Ovechkin or Malkin, you won't even have the offer of that much money to stay away from the NHL. And even the few Russian teams that can afford to pay that much to a kid still can't afford to offer the $5 million that the NHL can for these guys down the road.

This is just a scare tactic by the agents. I don't see many top prospects not coming to the NHL due to the rookie cap. They came over before the Thornton contract, so why wouldn't they now?

 

[Pepper]

. Apparently lucrative NHL contracts, SC drives, posh US living, and NHL competition have more than persuaded players to stick in the NHL.

I agree almost totally except for the 'posh US living', they will most likely enjoy better quality of life in Sweden than in US.

Not everything can be measured in money/material, things like clean environent, safe surroundings, stabile society, much lower crimerates etc. affect quality of living as well. And in all those US comes 2nd compared to Nordic countries.

 

[Mess]

The fact that that's all they can offer says plenty. Whether Ovechkin is 30 or 22 when he comes to the USA, he's gonna start off with the rookie minimum. So he's much better of taking $1.7M for the next three years and then cashing in than taking $2M now before he goes and makes $1.7M for three years.

Here this will help you correct your post ..

http://www.nhlcbanews.com/cba/article9.html

This was old CBA but I don't personally see that changing in the new CBA .. IMO

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Over on the Russian board they are talking about a 1.5 million dollar (US) offer for Ovechkin to play for Metallurg, and a 2 mil offer from AK Bars. Apparently there are several other teams also willing to pay over the proposed rookie minimum as well. He may be better off in the long run to go tot he NHL, but they are sure making it tempting for him to stay in Russia.

The issue though is that the Russian amount is likely stay relatively flat over the future (my assumption based on very limited knowledge of the economics in the European leagues), whereas AO could make $6-7M (likely upper end range under a new CBA) in the NHL.

This is going to be a matter of a player making an investment in the NHL to be able to cash in for the big money. If a player remains in Europe after being drafted, he is just delaying his NHL rookie contract, and shooting himself in the long run. Example: AO plays in Russia for 4 years. He's now 23, and decides to sign with the Cap's. His rookie contract would be from 24-26, and he's almost a UFA before his rookie contract expires.

 

[Pepper]

Let's put this in to a perspective; NHL is offering a rookie cap of 1.2M per year, currently the max salaries in FEL & SEL are $350K per year.

Russia is the only choice and there's not many teams who can pay more than 1.2M to any player.

 

[ceber]

I fail to see what's wrong with letting a guy prove himself before giving him more than 1.x million dollars a season.

 

[Sp5618]

A player's value, whether he is a one year veteran or a 10 year veteran is determined by what a team thinks he can contribute to their team.

If Avangard or Dynamo wants one of these guys, they bid as high as they can to get him to sign. The NHL has the same option. He decides based on his own idea of what he wants out of this...the money, the lifestyle, the glory...whatever it is for him....

A cap puts a limit on what a team can spend for the entire team. I like what one of the posters said, if you have a cap already limiting what you can pay 22 guys in total, why is a cap on the younger guys necessary??? The $10 million/year contracts are gone, so are the $6 mil per year ones too unless the NHL doubles its revenues in the next 1-2 seasons.

Shouldn't the team that gets Crosby in the draft decide what they want to pay Crosby out of the $36 mil (reported) to keep him? The total is limited. At least let the teams decide whom they place the value on within the 22 guys they MUST have.

A cap within a cap is kind of pointless.