NHL may be prepared to eat its young

[Traitor8]

no because Crosby and such would ask for a lot of money...right away. they need to prove themselves firt.

If you get Crosby and he ask 6 M $...what u gonna say no? The fans will be pissed, you will be pissed and so will Crosby...

 

[Sp5618]

They will retain their player rights so unless Ovechkin and Malkin plan to play their whole careers in Russia (extremely unlikely), they won't just lose their picks.

The retention of rights is great as long as you have other things to fall back on. Would you like to be the team that drafts Crosby then sit back and wonder if you see him in 1 year or two years or three years...

It is like buying a house, an investment, only you don't get to live in it until sometime in the future...maybe. Your "asset" just got traded in only you don't know if you get anything out of it.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

You know what's funny to me? That the PA is probably pushing this issue more than the owners!

The PA want's to maximize the $'s available to the current players. The more $'s committed to uproven talent, the less availible for the NHL roster.

 

[Sp5618]

no because Crosby and such would ask for a lot of money...right away. they need to prove themselves firt.

If you get Crosby and he ask 6 M $...what u gonna say no? The fans will be pissed, you will be pissed and so will Crosby...

In a capped world, not too many teams will be able to offer that much money to one guy. And he risks alienating fans not only in your market, but in whatever market he ends up in...if he does not produce.

It is a gamble for everyone. You gamble that he is going to be that good and you decide to spend (or not). He gambles that he is going to be that good. How many years does it take to show whether or not he can deliver?

The entire thing, from draft picks on up, is a gamble. You have no idea whether some players will work in some systems, or at all in the NHL. The league at least just put a limit on how much you can gamble in one year.

 

[Beauty eh?]

"I hope they fight for it. There will be kids, especially Europeans, who will stay in Europe if the entry level is too restrictive."

LOL. You know what? F them. European Prospects should want to play in the NHL because it's the best goddamn league in the world. If it's the money they're after and not the Stanley Cup, please stay in Europe. We don't need you or want you.

And as far as North American players possibly going to Europe because of a "restrictive" salary cap, don't let the 747 door hit you in the ass on the way out of town. And take your agent with you. Good riddance.

 

[The Old Master]

"I hope they fight for it. There will be kids, especially Europeans, who will stay in Europe if the entry level is too restrictive."

LOL. You know what? F them. European Prospects should want to play in the NHL because it's the best goddamn league in the world. If it's the money they're after and not the Stanley Cup, we don't need you or want you.

And as far as North American players possibly going to Europe because of a "restrictive" salary cap, don't let the 747 door hit you in the ass on the way to Europe. And take your agent with you. Good riddance.

only the short sighted ones. long term they will make more money here

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

A player's value, whether he is a one year veteran or a 10 year veteran is determined by what a team thinks he can contribute to their team.

I would say that a players value is based on what the CBA says.

If the NHL were a true free-market system, each team could bid on any prospect based on what they thought that player could contribute.

Since there is a CBA that allows for the draft, that same agreement will control what the rookies can make. Is that fair? I don't know, but I have a hard time seeing where potentially making $1.2MM (which will likely be the league average) is a huge burden.

For every player like Crosby (or Nash or Kovalchuk for that matter) you probably have 20-30 first round picks making over $1MM that are stealing a paycheck their rookie year. Is it fair that guys like Fedetenko who were found late in the draft play for the league minimum when they come in and contribute immediately, and 1st round picks like Shvidki and Alexseev make 4x as much to do nothing?

 

[Beauty eh?]

only the short sighted ones. long term they will make more money here

Well, I would hope that if they went to Europe for the first few years of their career because of the money (especially a high-profile prospect) that they would be banished from the league Ted Nolan-style.

 

[The Old Master]

Well, I would hope that if they went to Europe for the first few years of their career because of the money (especially a high-profile prospect) that they would be banished from the league Ted Nolan-style.

once they go, it would be hard to take a pay cut to come back.

 

[Sp5618]

I would say that a players value is based on what the CBA says.

If the NHL were a true free-market system, each team could bid on any prospect based on what they thought that player could contribute.

Since there is a CBA that allows for the draft, that same agreement will control what the rookies can make. Is that fair? I don't know, but I have a hard time seeing where potentially making $1.2MM (which will likely be the league average) is a huge burden.

For every player like Crosby (or Nash or Kovalchuk for that matter) you probably have 20-30 first round picks making over $1MM that are stealing a paycheck their rookie year. Is it fair that guys like Fedetenko who were found late in the draft play for the league minimum when they come in and contribute immediately, and 1st round picks like Shvidki and Alexseev make 4x as much to do nothing?

Yes and no.

Within the NHL, yes. The league and NHLPA may agree that a there is a maximum that teams can spend on ALL players. Furthermore, they can set other maxima, on rookies or whatever else they agree upon together.

Isn't that the debate here though? Is the league potentially hurting itself by applying a cap on rookies when they already have a cap on ALL salaries. It does remove some flexibility for some GM's who are faced with potentially losing a high value prospect. Should they not have some greater flexibility to spend their team's money as their team's needs require...as long as they stay within the accepted overall cap?

That is within the NHL. The NHL CBA has no effect on what a Russian Super League team wants to pay someone.

I agree with you that it is not a huge burden to make $1.2 million by the age of 20! It is also less of a burden to make $2 or $3 million tax-free! I guess I am saying that by the average man's standards, all these numbers are ridiculous. By pro athlete standards...the world is a different place.

 

[HSHS]

Okay, some facts are missing in these discussions.
Secondly, the money these guys get in Russia is Income Tax Free. So $2 million is a lot more than $1.2-$1.7 at a US tax bracket of what?? Factor that in as well. The incentive has to be there for these youngsters to leave their homeland, family, etc. They know the way of life there so no big adjustment is needed.

I've been thinking of how to address this issue or bring it up. The thing that is troubling is the expectation that Putin will continue this policy of low to no income tax. IF Russia can ever pull itself away from backdoor bribes and corruption that goes on in their relatively new free market economy... IF Russia reverses its policy on foreign oil investment... IF etc etc etc... then this low to no income tax policy will undoubtedly be removed or replaced by a much higher federal flat tax (on spending or assets). So projecting no tax over a length of time is not a slam dunk where as you can pretty much know the future tax rates in the US-Canada.

As for the Pens and Caps. They just lost their first round picks, something they were counting on to build a winner. How do they get that back...w/o spending more than they can afford?

I am not as up to speed on the Pens and Malkin, but Ovi has stated over and over and over again that he will play in the NHL, as it is his dream to play in the best league in the world. The Caps WILL sign him pending the CBA and potentially the transfer agreement (just reconfirmed again yesterday by GMGM on DC 101). Now that factor can't be underestimated in this discussion.

 

[HockeyCritter]

I've been thinking of how to address this issue or bring <<< snipped >>>


I am not as up to speed on the Pens and Malkin, but Ovi has stated over and over and over again that he will play in the NHL, as it is his dream to play in the best league in the world. The Caps WILL sign him pending the CBA and potentially the transfer agreement (just reconfirmed again yesterday by GMGM on DC 101). Now that factor can't be underestimated in this discussion.

Really??

That's fantastic.

I can't wait to watch Big Sasha and Little Sasha play - - - while I don't think the Caps will win very many games (frankly I expect a bottom five finish) they will certainly be entertaining to watch (something they have not been for the past few seasons).

 

[HSHS]

The point isn't that "we" care, or what we think these guys should get paid. There is a market outside the NHL for some players, and they may choose that course for myriad reasons.

The point is that NHL teams consider their draft picks investments in their future.

agreed... that is why teams will have to do their due diligence on the athlete before "blowing" their picks.

 

[HSHS]

I agree almost totally except for the 'posh US living', they will most likely enjoy better quality of life in Sweden than in US.

Not everything can be measured in money/material, things like clean environent, safe surroundings, stabile society, much lower crimerates etc. affect quality of living as well. And in all those US comes 2nd compared to Nordic countries.

But its sooooo cold!!!!!

 

[Pepper]

But its sooooo cold!!!!!

"cold" is a relative term

 

[Beauty eh?]

once they go, it would be hard to take a pay cut to come back.

Their loss. It's not the league's and it's certainly not ours. Playing in the NHL is a privilege, not a right. If they're too greedy to understand that, then we're all better off without them.

 

[Sp5618]

I've been thinking of how to address this issue or bring it up. The thing that is troubling is the expectation that Putin will continue this policy of low to no income tax. IF Russia can ever pull itself away from backdoor bribes and corruption that goes on in their relatively new free market economy... IF Russia reverses its policy on foreign oil investment... IF etc etc etc... then this low to no income tax policy will undoubtedly be removed or replaced by a much higher federal flat tax (on spending or assets). So projecting no tax over a length of time is not a slam dunk where as you can pretty much know the future tax rates in the US-Canada.



I am not as up to speed on the Pens and Malkin, but Ovi has stated over and over and over again that he will play in the NHL, as it is his dream to play in the best league in the world. The Caps WILL sign him pending the CBA and potentially the transfer agreement (just reconfirmed again yesterday by GMGM on DC 101). Now that factor can't be underestimated in this discussion.

Then of course, there is the Russian mafia to consider as well!

Of course tax policies and living conditions go into the equation. Those can be considered as the need arises. Tax may also be a reason many Swedish players did not play an entire season in Sweden last year as I believe Naslund falls into this category.

I want all the world's best players in the NHL. I want the NHL to remain the league where everyone wants to get to someday. I was pointing out that the economics have not only changed for the NHL, but for some other countries too. Will the lure of the league's reputation as "elite" be enough? Will it be true? I hope so but I am also realistic enough to know what "cha ching" means.

 

[HockeyCritter]

once they go, it would be hard to take a pay cut to come back.

How many have taken a pay cut to play in Europe last year?

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

That's assuming that the Russian league is going to pay undeveloped prospects more than that, which is highly unlikely.

Undeveloped???
Take a look at their Russian stats.

 

[HSHS]

Then of course, there is the Russian mafia to consider as well!

Of course tax policies and living conditions go into the equation. Those can be considered as the need arises. Tax may also be a reason many Swedish players did not play an entire season in Sweden last year as I believe Naslund falls into this category.

I want all the world's best players in the NHL. I want the NHL to remain the league where everyone wants to get to someday. I was pointing out that the economics have not only changed for the NHL, but for some other countries too. Will the lure of the league's reputation as "elite" be enough? Will it be true? I hope so but I am also realistic enough to know what "cha ching" means.

Good post. While I am not up to speed on every EU country's tax system, I believe Sweeden is one of those who's federal tax system incorporates a yearly asset tax once you spend so much time in country each year. So for many of the NHLer's who have a lot of assets, they'd lose money by playing there.

 

[HSHS]

How many have taken a pay cut to play in Europe last year?

touche'

critter, I see you found the GMGM DC101 thread on the Caps website...

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Here this will help you correct your post ..

http://www.nhlcbanews.com/cba/article9.html

This was old CBA but I don't personally see that changing in the new CBA .. IMO

For those too lazy to link:

ARTICLE 9
Entry Level Compensation

9.1. Applicability and Duration. Effective with contracts entered into after the date of the 1995 Entry Draft:

1. No Club may enter into a Player Contract with a Rookie (excluding a player who is age 25 or older) that provides for Compensation in excess of that permitted by this Article. For purposes of this Agreement, a Group IV Player under the age of 25 will be subject to this Article if such player was subject to this Article at the time he became a "defected player" (as defined in Section 10.2(b)(i)).

That means that Ovechkin can stay in Russia until 25, and then demand BIG BUCKS.

He retains rookie status until 25, then he gets his money.

I'd say that he'd do just as well financially (minus some endorsements, but plus salarie and without the tax hassle) to stay in Russia.


Wake the HELL UP, people.
If you get your salary cap, what are you afraid of????

Are you all just bitter that these kids are making millions doing what you mistakenly believe that you'd do for free???

 

[HockeyCritter]

touche'

critter, I see you found the GMGM DC101 thread on the Caps website...

Yep - - - unlike some, I don't think GMGM is a dummy. He'll do what he can to ensure Ovechkin plays in Washington.

 

[King_Brown]

1.2 million which equals 4.8 million for 4 years is not crappy. Any wide eyed rookie would take that in a second. If they europeans don't want to come to NA for a NHL contract oh well, it will keep the clutch and grab out of our game.

 

[HockeyCritter]

Do European players receive the same benefits as NHL players? Are their pension plans comparable? How about insurance coverage? Do they have to pay for their own equipment? Will they receive a per diem in Europe? How much of their travel costs are covered? Does the team provide meals? Training? Practice uniforms? Doctors?

There are factors other than “salary†when determining the financial advantage or disadvantage of playing in Europe or the NHL.