Prospect Info: NHL Entry Draft Discussion Thread - Looking Ahead to 2020

[SeaOfBlue]

Don Cherry on the Leafs draft

'Washington won the Stanley Cup two years ago with a big tough team and a big tough Canadian boy
Tom Wilson, who I saw play minor midget in Toronto. He stirred the drink for the club which helped win
them the Cup. St. Louis Blues won the Cup this year. A big strong tough club, with 16 Canadians, hit and
hit some more. Put out Hertl, Pavelski and Karlsson in the San Jose series. Took no prisoners. MVP
Canadian, saw play here in Toronto, Ryan O’Reilly tough and gritty and co-MVP as far as I’m concerned,
Jordan Binnington, won the Cup for them, also saw him play minor midget, also Canadian. The best
defenceman in the playoffs by far Alex Pietrangelo also a Canadian big tough kid I saw play in Toronto.
Ok Lets go over it…. Tom Wilson, Ryan O’Reilly, Jordan Binnington, Alex Pietrangelo all from Ontario, 16
Canadians on Blues… a Blue print on how to win the Stanley Cup. The Maple Leafs team who needed
jam and sand paper last year drafted; 1 Russian, 2 Fins and 3 Americans all described as rather on the
small size 5’9 to 5’11. The Leafs have gotten smaller and gentler… this team sits among 40000 kids who
love the Leafs… it really does boggle the mind.'

Okay but Nick Robertson played his Minor Midget and Bantam hockey in Toronto/Vaughan.

Besides, the Finns bleed Blue and White. So much so that their flag is literally Blue and White.

 

[Prodigy MayD]

Leafs draft was brutal.

Average height of 5'10 is sad.
Team needs bigger depth pieces, not more high risk high rewards picks.

 

[Leafs at Knight]

Don Cherry on the Leafs draft

'Washington won the Stanley Cup two years ago with a big tough team and a big tough Canadian boy
Tom Wilson, who I saw play minor midget in Toronto. He stirred the drink for the club which helped win
them the Cup. St. Louis Blues won the Cup this year. A big strong tough club, with 16 Canadians, hit and
hit some more. Put out Hertl, Pavelski and Karlsson in the San Jose series. Took no prisoners. MVP
Canadian, saw play here in Toronto, Ryan O’Reilly tough and gritty and co-MVP as far as I’m concerned,
Jordan Binnington, won the Cup for them, also saw him play minor midget, also Canadian. The best
defenceman in the playoffs by far Alex Pietrangelo also a Canadian big tough kid I saw play in Toronto.
Ok Lets go over it…. Tom Wilson, Ryan O’Reilly, Jordan Binnington, Alex Pietrangelo all from Ontario, 16
Canadians on Blues… a Blue print on how to win the Stanley Cup. The Maple Leafs team who needed
jam and sand paper last year drafted; 1 Russian, 2 Fins and 3 Americans all described as rather on the
small size 5’9 to 5’11. The Leafs have gotten smaller and gentler… this team sits among 40000 kids who
love the Leafs… it really does boggle the mind.'

Lol why even post this crap

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Leafs draft was brutal.

Average height of 5'10 is sad.
Team needs bigger depth pieces, not more high risk high rewards picks.

Many rankings have the Leafs as having a Top 1, 2 or 3 draft for rounds 2 through 7, but sure.....size.

Maybe they need another Gordeev, Middleton or Maatinen.

Take a lap.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Leafs draft was brutal.

Average height of 5'10 is sad.
Team needs bigger depth pieces, not more high risk high rewards picks.

Average weight of 174 lbs.

Both of Robertson's brothers are over 6'0" too, so I'd expect him to grow unless his birth problem stunted his growth. Our defensemen should be 6'0" or 6'1" too by the time they are done growing. Kokkonen is already 200lbs, and Loponen is 190 and can throw his weight around, so it's not exactly like they are lightweights.

We are fine.

 

[LaPlante94]

Looks like every player except Abruzzi played in the Ivan Hlinka tournament.

I wonder if people will mistake our development camp will mistake it for a peewee practice

All jokes aside though. I really liked our draft. Got to watch them all at that tournament and if anyone else did then you can't be mad about any of the picks. Abruzzi is the only unknown to me but he's going the college route so he'll have lots of time to develop.

 

[Rare Jewel]

There's no issue using mid round picks on players who are bigger if you think they could develop further.

But going on about how no one that was taken is over 6 feet is silly.

 

[rimshot]

You're drafting players that are, for the most part, minimum 2 years away from even seeing AHL ice time. Most of the players will take 4 years. Drafting based on current NHL needs is how you end up with a bunch of questionable draft selections at the NHL draft instead of simply drafting the best player available based on your rankings. This is how you end up with a Fred Gauthier after mentioning you want big centers because you lost a playoff series.

You don't draft all these players to find top line players... you draft them to give you the best chance the find one. You think the Tampa Bay Lightning thought they had a superstar when they drafted Nikita Kucherov at the tail end of the 2nd round in 2011? He was 5'10" and slightly heavier than a wet blanket when he was drafted.

Your NHL roster needs all kinds of different elements to be successful and they can be addressed through different avenues. Sometimes you're inline to draft a big player that fits your draft criterias, sometimes you don't. If 2 players are identical, of course the one that is taller will always be preferred but we all know that not every player is the same.

Gauthier was drafted where he was ranked by an average of the scouting services. Consensus rankings projected him to be drafted at 22 and the Leafs chose him at 21. He was not a reach. The narrative you have created, or repeated, is not true.

 

[WillNy29]

I have no issue with drafting small players. I would rather skill first for sure. If skill is equal, I would go size next.

However, some of the comments about size being irrelevant are pretty dumb. We can't and we won't have a team full of smurfs. There are legitimate limitations to that.

The core of our team still isn't built around smurfs though. Marner and Nylander are 5'11 and that is by no means small even by NHL standards.

Our defense only has 1 player who is currently under 6'0 and thats Dermott. Not sure there are many complaints to be had there.

Some of these guys who add on an inch or two if they are lucky. Some guys will bust and some guys will find success. I'd rather bet on skill.

Ive ran into nylander he's definitely about 6' but he's an absolute tank he probably weighs like 205 lbs

 

[Menzinger]

Mentioned this elsewhere but drafting bigger players because you think the current Leafs need size doesnt make sense as most players taken will be at most 3-5 years away from having a shot at the NHL.

Think about how different the Leafs roster of today is from how it looked in 2014/15....

 

[Menzinger]

Also this won't mean much to most folks but the guy who runs Corsica likes the Leafs draft (or at least his personal draft model does)

 

[SprDaVE]

Gauthier was drafted where he was ranked by an average of the scouting services. Consensus rankings projected him to be drafted at 22 and the Leafs chose him at 21. He was not a reach. The narrative you have created, or repeated, is not true.

I was very high on Gauthier for a lot of reasons as well in his draft year. I had seen him live a few times and thought he fit a lot of needs. I learned a lot since then and I assume a lot of people did as well.

Just because he was rated highly among certain scouts doesn't mean it was a good draft selection either. Same for quite a few of the bigger average to low overall skilled players.

Also worth noting I never said he was a reach when he was selected.

 

[Stand Witness]

Ive ran into nylander he's definitely about 6' but he's an absolute tank he probably weighs like 205 lbs

Well the outrage I don't get is that 5'11 and 6'0 are an inch apart. You would never be able to tell unless you measured someone. Heck, even with some guys hair it can add an extra inch or two.

But yea like you said, I care more about how a guy fills out his frame than his actual height.

The best RBs are small guys but f*** are they sturdy.

 

[rimshot]

I was very high on Gauthier for a lot of reasons as well in his draft year. I had seen him live a few times and thought he fit a lot of needs. I learned a lot since then and I assume a lot of people did as well.

Just because he was rated highly among certain scouts doesn't mean it was a good draft selection either. Same for quite a few of the bigger average to low overall skilled players.

Also worth noting I never said he was a reach when he was selected.

You clearly said that he was drafted because he was a big centre and the reason the Leafs chose him at that spot was because of perceived need due to shortcomings at that position during the playoffs a. You implied that it was a reach otherwise why would they have chosen him where they did. The fact that he has not turned out better had more to do with injuries (thanks Dotchin, you prince) than the fact that he was chosen based on a mistaken drafting philosophy. You should not employ the benefit of hindsight to engage in revisionist history. Had Gauthier been rated outside the first couple rounds and Leafs chose him anyways, you would have a compelling case for obvious drafting for need. I agree that a team should never draft for need, but this was not an example of that.

 

[Menzinger]

I was very high on Gauthier for a lot of reasons as well in his draft year. I had seen him live a few times and thought he fit a lot of needs. I learned a lot since then and I assume a lot of people did as well.

Just because he was rated highly among certain scouts doesn't mean it was a good draft selection either. Same for quite a few of the bigger average to low overall skilled players.

Also worth noting I never said he was a reach when he was selected.

Yeah. They wanted a centre, and they took the best one available.

I remember there was this interview in the leadup to the draft by Nonis or one of the AGMs saying the only way to get good centres via the draft- and then low and behold they take the Goat.

2013 was a mediocre draft class, but Gauthier was an underwhelming prospect from the moment of the draft.

 

[Stand Witness]

Gauthier was underwhelming because the Leafs literally came out and tried to lower all expectations of him by saying he is a future 3rd line center.

Defensive specialist who had good offensive results (and looked like a good player at the time) plus a big body on top of it. I wonder how he would have faired if the current development program got a hold of him right away in 2013. I think there is a chance he would be a 3rd line center*. Keep in mind, the NHL was even more different back in 2013 so hindsight is always 20/20.

I'd imagine if we wanted skill we would have taken Shinkurak. Not exactly a great pick either... but again who knows how he could have developed with our current program. If you haven't figured out yet, I have a lot of faith in it.

*fyi I still don't want to be drafting a ceiling 3rd line center at all really.

 

[LaPlante94]

I was very high on Gauthier for a lot of reasons as well in his draft year. I had seen him live a few times and thought he fit a lot of needs. I learned a lot since then and I assume a lot of people did as well.

Just because he was rated highly among certain scouts doesn't mean it was a good draft selection either. Same for quite a few of the bigger average to low overall skilled players.

Also worth noting I never said he was a reach when he was selected.

2013 wasn't a very good draft and we knew what we were getting in Gauthier. A bottom 6 defensive center who was good on the draws. I remember like 90% of these boards wanting Shinkarak and look how well he's been doing

 

[rimshot]

2013 wasn't a very good draft and we knew what we were getting in Gauthier. A bottom 6 defensive center who was good on the draws. I remember like 90% of these boards wanting Shinkarak and look how well he's been doing

In retrospect, the best choice would have been to trade that 1st for a 2015 2nd (had that only been possible). That was a butt ugly 2013 draft indeed, Nickushin at 10, Morin at 11, Lazar at 17 and Kirby fn Rychel at 19.

 

[Stand Witness]

In retrospect, the best choice would have been to trade that 1st for a 2015 2nd (had that only been possible). That was a butt ugly 2013 draft indeed, Nickushin at 10, Morin at 11, Lazar at 17 and Kirby fn Rychel at 19.

2013 was suppose to be really deep at the time if I remember correctly.

MacKinnon, Barkov Jones as can't miss... Drouin was suppose to be what Marner is. The top 10 turned out pretty good but after that its average at best.

 

[WillNy29]

Well the outrage I don't get is that 5'11 and 6'0 are an inch apart. You would never be able to tell unless you measured someone. Heck, even with some guys hair it can add an extra inch or two.

But yea like you said, I care more about how a guy fills out his frame than his actual height.

The best RBs are small guys but **** are they sturdy.

I am in total agreement with you don't get me wrong.

Just thought i'd clear up some of the misconception; I think people getting hung up on size are the same to complain when jamie devane is a throwaway garbage pick. I am all down for size but speed and skill first. You usually dont get those players late in the draft so why not go balls to the wall trying to hit home runs with every swing. You only get a few anyways.

 

[Stephen]

Mentioned this elsewhere but drafting bigger players because you think the current Leafs need size doesnt make sense as most players taken will be at most 3-5 years away from having a shot at the NHL.

Think about how different the Leafs roster of today is from how it looked in 2014/15....

There's an emerging pattern of player acquisition under the general Shanaplan era (and more aggressively under Dubas) that skews towards speedy skill players: Bracco, Timashov, Dzierkals, Petan, Ennis, Carcone, Robertson, Abramov, Abruzzese, Der-Arguchintsev, Stotts, Holmberg, Moore.

Understanding that there's a big spectrum of abilities in these player types, it's still a hell of a lot of resources, energy, roster spaces, development time that is being spent on a general small skill player type we are overstocked on.

To make things even more ridiculous, they don't really compliment and diversify Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Kapanen, Kadri and Johnsson very well either.

Essentially, we have a ton of replacement parts for Andreas Johnsson.

 

[stickty111]

There's an emerging pattern of player acquisition under the general Shanaplan era (and more aggressively under Dubas) that skews towards speedy skill players: Bracco, Timashov, Dzierkals, Petan, Ennis, Carcone, Robertson, Abramov, Abruzzese, Der-Arguchintsev, Stotts, Holmberg, Moore.

Understanding that there's a big spectrum of abilities in these player types, it's still a hell of a lot of resources, energy, roster spaces, development time that is being spent on a general small skill player type we are overstocked on.

To make things even more ridiculous, they don't really compliment and diversify Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Kapanen, Kadri and Johnsson very well either.

Essentially, we have a ton of replacement parts for Andreas Johnsson.

Maybe those players aren't easy to find, and the best players are actually small?
Lucic could have been a good guy to help those players you mentioned. How well has he done in Edmonton?
Small and skilled>size and unskilled

If the best player available is a small player, you don't take someone with size who isn't very good.
So it's not ridiculous that we are picking those guys, in fact it's ridiculous that the size people are still complaining about small players, even if the good big players were not available.

 

[stickty111]

Mentioned this elsewhere but drafting bigger players because you think the current Leafs need size doesnt make sense as most players taken will be at most 3-5 years away from having a shot at the NHL.

Think about how different the Leafs roster of today is from how it looked in 2014/15....

These are the facts.

 

[93LEAFS]

Okay but Nick Robertson played his Minor Midget and Bantam hockey in Toronto/Vaughan.

Besides, the Finns bleed Blue and White. So much so that their flag is literally Blue and White.

Robertson played his OHL draft year in Toronto. But, he was primarily developed playing for Little Caesars out of Detroit. Not that it makes Don's nationalistic take any better.

This draft was fine. It had way less WTF are they thinking type moves that happened last year. Robertson is a significantly better prospect than anyone we drafted last year outside of Sandin, especially guys who were taken in comparable spots like Durzi and SDA.

I do think it is fair to be concerned about the size of the picks. It is not really their size that alarms me, but more the lack of skating ability combined with the lack of size. That was my big worry with SDA. Although, I think Robertson being more of a shooter with more tenacity will lessen the issues than a guy who is primarily a playmaker who relies on his hands too much.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Robertson played his OHL draft year in Toronto. But, he was primarily developed playing for Little Caesars out of Detroit. Not that it makes Don's nationalistic take any better.

This draft was fine. It had way less WTF are they thinking type moves that happened last year. Robertson is a significantly better prospect than anyone we drafted last year outside of Sandin, especially guys who were taken in comparable spots like Durzi and SDA.

I do think it is fair to be concerned about the size of the picks. It is not really their size that alarms me, but more the lack of skating ability combined with the lack of size. That was my big worry with SDA. Although, I think Robertson being more of a shooter with more tenacity will lessen the issues than a guy who is primarily a playmaker who relies on his hands too much.

They all are pretty good skaters outside of Kokkonen, but he at least has size. Robertson especially is a strong skater.

I don't think all of them will be pure speedsters, but there is a lot more to skating than just speed. I'm more worried about technique and it doesn't seem like anyone has poor technique. The rest comes with time and strength. Even Kokkonen, who has a choppier stride, had problems that could not be fixed with some time and training.

We'll see in training camp. They'll be going up against a lot of strong skaters from our pool so we'll see who gets exposed and who stands out.

And does Cherry needs these guys to be born and raised in Ontario for him to be happy? Like Robertson played his all of his important Junior Hockey in Ontario with programs he loves. First with Vaughan, then in Toronto, and finally in Peterborough. Just because the guy wasn't here since he was 4 years old doesn't mean anything, and I am pretty sure he has praised some Russians like SDA who have been here since they were 13 and coming up through the Canadian system. Robertson was here since he was 13/14 years old. I really don't care. It's not like the Canadian crop was amazing this year or anything.