GDT: NHL Draft Part Duex

[Dipsy Doodle]

Actions speak louder than words.


I wont' say anything about draft picks because it's all a crapshoot. Optics are obviously poor. I hope all the kids end up as speed demons, but when you sit there and say you want speed/youth and you grab 3 guys who all have the major project on footspeed.... there is no other way to see it.

How dare you

 

[zero8771]

I just wish that they would just pick an identity and stick with it. The Pens are exhibiting more personalities than Sally Field in Sybil.

You and I have screamed for an identity for years, celebrated when they finally and bravely embraced one during the two cup years, and then for no reason abandoned it completely for this schizophrenic tug of war between management styles.

Can anyone even still say what Pens' hockey is now? I would love to hear someone try and answer that.

Or you get value everywhere you can and you deploy them in the way that makes sense for the current crop of players. Nothing wrong with that

 

[ColePens]

Or maybe the concerns about their skating are overblown, which is what has been suggested by a lot of people (except on Legare, but he's a guy who was Sprong productive in his D-1 in the 3rd round, so yolo)?



Patrick's helping with pro scouting. The guy who selected Guentzel left the org and I've no idea how relatively trusted his replacement is.

Sure as f*** I don't know. I've never seen any of these kids play. And i'm not going to be some keyboard warrior who claims to have done so. I'm trusting these scouting reports and they all sound like the same one.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Or you get value everywhere you can and you deploy them in the way that makes sense for the current crop of players. Nothing wrong with that

I am not merely talking about this draft, or any draft. The entire so-called team philosophy has been a schizophrenic mess for two years now. And the problem is that the sum of both parts work completely against one another, do not compliment one another. At all. It is the main problem with the team in fact.

And this draft just reinforces that perception even though I think that the players chosen are fine for when they were picked.

 

[ColePens]

I just wish that they would just pick an identity and stick with it. The Pens are exhibiting more personalities than Sally Field in Sybil.

You and I have screamed for an identity for years, celebrated when they finally and bravely embraced one during the two cup years, and then for no reason abandoned it completely for this schizophrenic tug of war between management styles.

Can anyone even still say what Pens' hockey is now? I would love to hear someone try and answer that.

At the end of the day, I can at least say 2016 happened. I've never been more proud of a team. Kill them with speed and turn the other way after the whistle. Sid's f***ing demon robot moment where Thornton (?) was punching him and trying to knock him off his game was one of the best moments i've ever seen. He was so locked in he acted like it didn't even exist. My lord was it awesome.

 

[The Greatest 101]

And that's a problem. Keep eyes on a player factory in Minnesota. Theyre coachable and flat out good.

Maybe there'll be camp invites from there.

Probably not enough budget. Clearly they are heavily scouting the Q and Finnish player right now.

 

[BrokenStick]

One thing I have learned it's that all the people who keep saying that they just want the team to take the BPA are full of crap if they're whining now.

They never reached with a pick and usually grabbed a guy projected to go way earlier.

To me, I see a team that wanted to get the best prospects they could.

Trying to read some pattern is just looking for something that likely isn't there.

 

[Burn]

I'd imagine there'd be some - they picked up Lizotte from St Cloud as an AHL guy for this season, they're clearly watching up there - but I hope its more full of CHL guys so they can grab a free agent or two.

Liked Adam Johnson's game. Hope he sticks this year.

I'm a huge Minnesota hockey fan... To see the Flyers steal Brink and Brodzinski just destroyed my weekend. There are a ton more.

 

[Peat]

At the end of the day, I can at least say 2016 happened. I've never been more proud of a team. Kill them with speed and turn the other way after the whistle. Sid's ****ing demon robot moment where Thornton (?) was punching him and trying to knock him off his game was one of the best moments i've ever seen. He was so locked in he acted like it didn't even exist. My lord was it awesome.

Didn't he then whack Thornton in the leg right after the opening face off the very next game and just skate off to play the game? Wound him up even more.

Watching hockey has been all downhill for me from there.

I just wish that they would just pick an identity and stick with it. The Pens are exhibiting more personalities than Sally Field in Sybil.

You and I have screamed for an identity for years, celebrated when they finally and bravely embraced one during the two cup years, and then for no reason abandoned it completely for this schizophrenic tug of war between management styles.

Can anyone even still say what Pens' hockey is now? I would love to hear someone try and answer that.

I think I can tell you what the Pens identity and game plan is meant to be - puck possession, puck pressure; trying to play the game in their zone, going heavy on the turnovers. It is similar to what Sully was doing to begin with, but with more emphasis on boardplay and possession and less on quick strike transition and breakways. You will probably say "Why haven't I seen this" and the answer is, of course, because the GM hasn't really done wonders putting together the roster on this. The defence are somewhat inadequate on puck possession; the forwards underperformed quite majorly on puck pressure. I think the latter might have been the bigger sin.

In any case, yes. Confusion. There has been an evolution that hasn't been supported by recruitment or player development. Which is why I get why people look at prospects and say "What is going on". Just...

Sure as **** I don't know. I've never seen any of these kids play. And i'm not going to be some keyboard warrior who claims to have done so. I'm trusting these scouting reports and they all sound like the same one.

... I read the reports and I see better things than Cole. Just one of those things I guess. And a lot more different things too; the variance on reports of Poulin's skating is mad.

But in any case, I think with most of them I'm seeing guys who can play Sully's forechecking game. That is the biggest part of our identity and I think they've mostly got the foundations to have the speed to play that - and I think Allvin thinks that too. There's a video in which DK is asking Allvin about their speed and he sounds positively enthusiastic about what can be done with their top end speed.

I dunno. Maybe he's part of the org wide delusion in which they thought the team they built post 16-17 would still be able to execute Sully's forecheck. Maybe Craig Button is right on Poulin and we dun ****ed up. At this juncture we really don't know. Just I think there's a bunch of ways to look at this, and there's definitely an angle from which it looks encouraging and it looks like they're working towards an identity.

Not that what Allvin thinks really matters when his draft is probably 3 years away from having a major impact on team identity at best if everything goes super well, and more like 5 or never, and its up to Rutherford to implement the speed/skill thing anyway.

Probably not enough budget. Clearly they are heavily scouting the Q and Finnish player right now.

The team has 10 amateur scouts, not including Allvin or the European scouts. I'm pretty sure with a bit of searching you could work out which one has the mid-west; given the org has two prospects there and signed a guy from a Minnesota school this summer for the AHL, they've got someone there.

I don't think there's any major junior league in North America they're not covering.

 

[Burn]

Probably not enough budget. Clearly they are heavily scouting the Q and Finnish player right now.

What a shame.

I wonder if they almost take a hit because Minnesota born players are so developed to be pro Minny hockey that the USD is almost 2ndary.

 

[The Greatest 101]

The team has 10 amateur scouts, not including Allvin or the European scouts. I'm pretty sure with a bit of searching you could work out which one has the mid-west; given the org has two prospects there and signed a guy from a Minnesota school this summer for the AHL, they've got someone there.

I don't think there's any major junior league in North America they're not covering.

I’m sure they have guys covering all leagues even the European leagues. Covering and heavily scouting are different though. Signing guys to AHL deals and drafting them with high picks are different as well. Every team has their own strategy. For example, the Pens like Finns and draft a lot, but the Caps rarely draft Finns.

 

[Peat]

I’m sure they have guys covering all leagues even the European leagues. Covering and heavily scouting are different though. Signing guys to AHL deals and drafting them with high picks are different as well. Every team has their own strategy. For example, the Pens like Finns and draft a lot, but the Caps rarely draft Finns.

True to a point. I don't think they particularly cover Russia, or do much in Central Europe. Despite what I just said about covering major junior league in North America, they don't seem to do much with guys from down south.

In any case, scouting heavily from and drafting from are still two different things - I'm pretty sure they've had two scouts in the WHL forever, but that still resulted in more or less no WHLers drafted between 2012 and 2018. Two/three scouts covering the OHL/Ontario, again not many picks. Only one guy in the Q, but a bunch of picks from there. And I'm not sure any of their scouts are specifically covering New England, but that's pretty much the cornerstone of their college free agent recruitment (probably Scott Young himself) and a decent amount of draft picks.

They pretty much only ever have one guy in the mid-west insofar as I can tell - only had one guy there when they were taking a USHL guy almost yearly between 2013 and 2017 when Scott Bell left the Pens, only one guy there since when we're getting pretty much nothing. I don't think its the fact there's only one guy there causing the lack of picks there as it just being a new not that trusted guy.

 

[Peat]

My point is that a scattershot approach is more successful simply by math standards. And given what these scouts have turned out since 2014, I’m not going to trust them too much. Kappy, Sprong and Simon is pretty whatever.

New regime though under Allvin innit. In his two drafts to date, we've had three top 100 picks outside the 1st and taken guys who were maybes on 1st round with all three. Sexton had six in his time under Rutherford and took one. There's a definite change in philosophy for the better there.

 

[HandshakeLine]

True to a point. I don't think they particularly cover Russia, or do much in Central Europe. Despite what I just said about covering major junior league in North America, they don't seem to do much with guys from down south.

In any case, scouting heavily from and drafting from are still two different things - I'm pretty sure they've had two scouts in the WHL forever, but that still resulted in more or less no WHLers drafted between 2012 and 2018. Two/three scouts covering the OHL/Ontario, again not many picks. Only one guy in the Q, but a bunch of picks from there. And I'm not sure any of their scouts are specifically covering New England, but that's pretty much the cornerstone of their college free agent recruitment (probably Scott Young himself) and a decent amount of draft picks.

They pretty much only ever have one guy in the mid-west insofar as I can tell - only had one guy there when they were taking a USHL guy almost yearly between 2013 and 2017 when Scott Bell left the Pens, only one guy there since when we're getting pretty much nothing. I don't think its the fact there's only one guy there causing the lack of picks there as it just being a new not that trusted guy.

I'm pretty sure we're down to only two scouts in Europe -- one Finnish scout (Pakaslahti) and one Swedish (Westlund), so we're not really focusing on the CZ/SK Extraliga, KHL, etc.

 

[wej20]

I'm pretty sure we're down to only two scouts in Europe -- one Finnish scout (Pakaslahti) and one Swedish (Westlund), so we're not really focusing on the CZ/SK Extraliga, KHL, etc.

Also have Reine Rauhala, on the Pens website he's not listed as a European scout but on Elite Prospects he is. He is Swedish so I guess he might be based in Europe but impossible to know.

 

[Burn]

I am not merely talking about this draft, or any draft. The entire so-called team philosophy has been a schizophrenic mess for two years now. And the problem is that the sum of both parts work completely against one another, do not compliment one another. At all. It is the main problem with the team in fact.

And this draft just reinforces that perception even though I think that the players chosen are fine for when they were picked.

Still is and that's what worries me about this draft. Its a calling card to how the Pens will form their teams and it just doesn't fit Sullivan hockey.

Big heavy players just don't work. The Pens won championships on foot speed and racing to pucks.

The Blue Jackets lose playing pretty much the same way because the have a big beat em up team playing expand and contract hockey.

Maybe Sullivan finally sees that the league has adjusted to him... And its time he's adjusted back.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Still is and that's what worries me about this draft. Its a calling card to how the Pens will form their teams and it just doesn't fit Sullivan hockey.

Big heavy players just don't work. The Pens won championships on foot speed and racing to pucks.

The Blue Jackets lose playing pretty much the same way because the have a big beat em up team playing expand and contract hockey.

Maybe Sullivan finally sees that the league has adjusted to him... And its time he's adjusted back.

Neither do small speedsters in isolation. Otherwise Megna, Sheary, and the millions of midgets drafted by Shero would be at the top of the leaderboards instead of toiling in the AHL/slumping in the NHL.

At the end of a day, complaining that we drafted a few kids who "project" to be bigger, who might or might not improve their speed, who may or may not live up to the scouting reports, is pretty dumb. It has no impact on how this team is constructed at this moment, and to pretend it does is dishonest at best.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't think size and physicality are the bane of successful hockey, but it's REALLY hard to find a guy who can skate like NHLers need to nowadays while still being big and physical. You can't have a guy plodding around the ice anymore. So if you have the option of a guy who hits but isn't a great skater, and a guy who doesn't hit but can skate well, I'm going with the latter every time. It's not because I'm against physicality, it's because physicality at the expense of effective hockey doesn't make sense. It's what's kept the Flyers in mediocrity for years and years.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I don't think size and physicality are the bane of successful hockey, but it's REALLY hard to find a guy who can skate like NHLers need to nowadays while still being big and physical. You can't have a guy plodding around the ice anymore. So if you have the option of a guy who hits but isn't a great skater, and a guy who doesn't hit but can skate well, I'm going with the latter every time. It's not because I'm against physicality, it's because physicality at the expense of effective hockey doesn't make sense. It's what's kept the Flyers in mediocrity for years and years.

I'd agree with that, but we're not talking about guys who are 6'4", 235 lbs. We're talking about skaters who are 6'0 and 198 lbs, who are still young enough to change their stride/skating style, and who are going to work with strength and conditioning coaches. Assuming that they're going all skate like Luc Robitaille and play like Cal Clutterbuck is weird, especially since most of them have some of the best offensive production in their various leagues.

 

[HandshakeLine]

In the end, I think the team decided that you can't teach offensive instincts and physical size, and the other limitations can be worked around and improved, especially since a lot of the smaller players have become less effective in the last few seasons.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'd agree with that, but we're not talking about guys who are 6'4", 235 lbs. We're talking about skaters who are 6'0 and 198 lbs, who are still young enough to change their stride/skating style, and who are going to work with strength and conditioning coaches. Assuming that they're going all skate like Luc Robitaille and play like Cal Clutterbuck is weird, especially since most of them have some of the best offensive production in their various leagues.

Oh, for sure. I was just chiming in on the "big, heavy players don't work" thing. You can't just have a team full of Shearys either.

I'm hoping the Poulin kid can round out his skating enough to end up being a prime Kunitz for us. Jesse in particular has raised concerns about his skating, which has me questioning the pick a little bit. If he can get his skating to a good spot, though, I think he could end up being great.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I mean, ideally, we have a big, strong line that can skate and score, a big speedy line that can shut things down, and then we have Sid and Geno doing their thaaaaang.

 

[Burn]

Neither do small speedsters in isolation. Otherwise Megna, Sheary, and the millions of midgets drafted by Shero would be at the top of the leaderboards instead of toiling in the AHL/slumping in the NHL.

At the end of a day, complaining that we drafted a few kids who "project" to be bigger, who might or might not improve their speed, who may or may not live up to the scouting reports, is pretty dumb. It has no impact on how this team is constructed at this moment, and to pretend it does is dishonest at best.

Except Sheary scored some big goals for cup teams as Tangradi failed miserably.

Guentzel Rust Sheary Hags... Flat out speed works in Sullivan's system. They chip, they chase, they Murphy dump, chase... Its not a pretty or skilled game but you need to churn your legs and get going fast.

Reaves Pearsson Brassard... Players with poor foot speed just don't cut it.

Then you have the odd player like Bonino and his IQ was off the charts.

 

[davemess]

Then you have the odd player like Bonino and his IQ was off the charts.

So how are the hockey IQs of the guys we drafted? In all the talk of size vs speed I haven't seen that mentioned at all.

There is a huge difference between a big winger that just lumbers around the ice bumping into things and a big winger that's smart enough to get to the areas that can damage the other team and plays physically when its going to help rather than hurt us.

 

[Burn]

I mean, ideally, we have a big, strong line that can skate and score, a big speedy line that can shut things down, and then we have Sid and Geno doing their thaaaaang.

And that's what I'm getting at... Theres heavy plodders and there's puck heavy. Skilled and balanced is great... Malkin headmanning pucks to plodders like Neal and Juice and expecting a speed game isnt.

Like people like at Brinks skating. That kid is puck heavy nimble and can skate up and down his wing all day. Poulin is big and heavy and strong in small areas kind of like Cory Perry or Andres Lee. Not a bad thing but with Sullivans system there's a lot of chase. Even when the Pens have the puck.. They get pucks deep and chase. I'm nots sure he fits and that's my concern.

Poulin as a player I like... Just not sure if he's a winger or a big heavy center.