NHL.com Best Dmen of the Expansion Era

[danincanada]

Reason Leetch was -18 in 2001 was due to empty net and shorthanded goals against. There was a breakdown of that season on here by another poster I have to find, but it showed how the Rangers were a far better team with Leetch on the ice at even strength.

Odd that you would cite 2001 to criticize Leetch considering he lead the league in points for Defensemen and was fantastic the whole year. A remarkable feat considering how awful the team he played for was. Lidstrom wouldn't come anywhere near 79 points on the 2001 Rangers.

But since you're so into plus/minus we can at least agree that Leetch's Conn Smythe +19 and 34 points in the 94 playoffs was a remarkable feat that Lidstrom never came close to matching.

The -18 is one thing, the 157 GA that season with Leetch on the ice is another. He played a lot that season, and his team allowed 12 short handed goals and 7 empty net goals but even if you removed all 19 of those goals, not that rose reflect well on a player (why would they?) it’s still by far the most any player allowed during the dead puck era.

You can’t run from this. Leetch clearly struggled with the changes the DPE brought. He was a very high event player for the era and it didn’t work out very well for him or his team. He was fairly consistently having near the most GA each season.

The ‘94 run was a great performance and he gets tons of mileage out of but it’s still only a 23 game sample. Watching Lidstrom anchor his defense corps for 4 Cups means a lot more, which is one of many reasons why he’s ranked higher. Lidstrom didn’t need to be paired with a defense first guy like Beukeboom because he was defense-first himself.

 

[Riley 88]

Leetch was very, very good defensively. Look up quotes from his peers from when he was playing. Park, as good as he was, never played at Leetch circa 1994 levels. Coffey wasn't as well rounded as Leetch but his offense is unmatched and that alone puts him in the Top 10. Stevens was a punishing Defenseman, but you don't pass on guys like Coffey or Leetch for him. No disrespect to Stevens but guys like Coffey and Leetch are a lot more rare of a player than he was.

ROtflmao......I dont have to look up quotes from his peers....I watched his whole career. Saw him play in person 100 times.....PARK was never as good asLeetch 94......Thats Lauhable. Again, i am betting you barely saw either player....Waste of my time here....

 

[ElLeetch]

Sweet Jesus... I mean, they got more-or-less the right group of players, but the ordering is just terrible.

Lidstrom over Bourque. I disagree but it’s defensible. Not worth quibbling over.

Coffey at #4, over Potvin. Coffey over Potvin.

Leetch and Niedermayer over the Chelios/MacInnis/Stevens trio. That just lacks coherence. There’s no measure of a defenseman that could make this make sense.

Larry Murphy over anybody born after 1977!?

This is just... a lot to take in.

Stevens was nothing more than a cheap shot artist, and shouldn't even be top 20.

 

[tarheelhockey]

People here are talking about Stevens like he wasn’t a very good offensive defenseman in the front end of his career, before he flipped 180 degrees to become a punishing defensive presence.

There aren’t a lot of players who can be called excellent offensively and defensively, even if it’s during different career phases.

 

[Bryce Newman]

The -18 is one thing, the 157 GA that season with Leetch on the ice is another. He played a lot that season, and his team allowed 12 short handed goals and 7 empty net goals but even if you removed all 19 of those goals, not that rose reflect well on a player (why would they?) it’s still by far the most any player allowed during the dead puck era.

You can’t run from this. Leetch clearly struggled with the changes the DPE brought. He was a very high event player for the era and it didn’t work out very well for him or his team. He was fairly consistently having near the most GA each season.

The ‘94 run was a great performance and he gets tons of mileage out of but it’s still only a 23 game sample. Watching Lidstrom anchor his defense corps for 4 Cups means a lot more, which is one of many reasons why he’s ranked higher. Lidstrom didn’t need to be paired with a defense first guy like Beukeboom because he was defense-first himself.

You're trying very hard to push the narrative that because Leetch had a bad GA on Beer League Ranger teams, it somehow diminishes his illustrious career. Nobodies buying it. Lidstrom's GA numbers (or any player) on those terrible Ranger teams would be just as bad, so I fail to see why you keep bringing this up. It's basically saying "My guys team was WAY better than your guys team, therefore my guy is better!". You're really reaching. As soon as Leetch went to Toronto in 2004 (a decent team) he became a +11 player in 15 games overnight.

It also makes no sense to say Leetch somehow "struggled" in the DPE when he lead the league in points (79) in 2001 on a terrible team. That's literally the exact opposite of "struggling". Lidstrom could never score 79 points on a bad team because he wasn't talented enough to do so. His GA would be similar to Leetch's on those bad teams with about half the offensive production. You're also basically saying Lidstrom benefited from the DPE, an era of hockey so bad the league changed the rules to abolish it. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Lidstrom.

Lidstrom is ranked higher on lists than Leetch because he played on far better teams. That's just the way it is. Doesn't change the fact I'd pick prime Leetch any day over prime Lidstrom. 102 point season (1 of 5 in NHL history to score over 100), record setting playoff run for a Defenseman (Lidstrom could never reach 94 Leetch levels), 1 of 3 Dmen in NHL history to record over a PPG in the playoffs. Calder, 2x Norris winner during the best era of Dmen ever, Conn Smythe, Captained World Cup Gold against Canada.

Even if somehow Leetch forgot how to play hockey after 97 (he didn't), Leetch circa 89-97 was better than Lidstrom was at any point in his career. Prime Leetch could take over games by himself, which Lidstrom was never capable of doing. Strong defender, but he just wasn't that type of player.

And as far as Lidstrom not having to be paired with Beukeboom? Yeah, poor Lidstrom. He only played with teams stacked with HOF players his entire career. My heart bleeds for him.

 

[Bryce Newman]

ROtflmao......I dont have to look up quotes from his peers....I watched his whole career. Saw him play in person 100 times.....PARK was never as good asLeetch 94......Thats Lauhable. Again, i am betting you barely saw either player....Waste of my time here....

Yeah who cares what those former NHL player bums have to say. You're the real expert. You saw Leetch play 100 times yet you said he "never hit anyone" which I disproved with clear evidence so forgive me if I question your judgment.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

My list, for the record:

1. Bobby Orr
2. Ray Bourque
3. Nicklas Lidstrom
4. Denis Potvin
5. Larry Robinson
6. Chris Chelios
7. Paul Coffey
8. Brad Park
9. Scott Stevens
10. Chris Pronger
11. Al MacInnis
12. Zdeno Chara
13. Brian Leetch
14. Borje Salming
15. Mark Howe
16. Duncan Keith

Some commentary:

• This is a list of playing ability only. It doesn't take into account how historically important the player was. For example, Borje Salming would be much higher if I gave him credit for being a trailblazer for Swedish players (and European players, generally).
• I'm not making any projections about what a player might do in the future. For example, Victor Hedman appears well on track to earn a spot in the future, but I'm not prepared to list him yet based on less than 800 games.
• This is based on NHL performance only. Slava Fetisov would be high on this list - probably 5th overall - if we considered his performance in the Soviet league and international tournaments.
• For the record, I'd rank Denis Potvin as the 2nd best defenseman when at his peak. I'd take his best five or seven years over Bourque's or Lidstrom's. But looking at their careers at at whole, they both maintained their level of play much longer.
• The biggest omissions are probably Rod Langway and his two Norris trophies (I don't think he deserved either) or Scott Niedermayer (who's great, just overrated - the NHL ranking him 9th is absurd).

 

[danincanada]

You're trying very hard to push the narrative that because Leetch had a bad GA on Beer League Ranger teams, it somehow diminishes his illustrious career. Nobodies buying it. Lidstrom's GA numbers (or any player) on those terrible Ranger teams would be just as bad, so I fail to see why you keep bringing this up. It's basically saying "My guys team was WAY better than your guys team, therefore my guy is better!". You're really reaching. As soon as Leetch went to Toronto in 2004 (a decent team) he became a +11 player in 15 games overnight.

It also makes no sense to say Leetch somehow "struggled" in the DPE when he lead the league in points (79) in 2001 on a terrible team. That's literally the exact opposite of "struggling". Lidstrom could never score 79 points on a bad team because he wasn't talented enough to do so. His GA would be similar to Leetch's on those bad teams with about half the offensive production. You're also basically saying Lidstrom benefited from the DPE, an era of hockey so bad the league changed the rules to abolish it. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Lidstrom.

Lidstrom is ranked higher on lists than Leetch because he played on far better teams. That's just the way it is. Doesn't change the fact I'd pick prime Leetch any day over prime Lidstrom. 102 point season (1 of 5 in NHL history to score over 100), record setting playoff run for a Defenseman (Lidstrom could never reach 94 Leetch levels), 1 of 3 Dmen in NHL history to record over a PPG in the playoffs. Calder, 2x Norris winner during the best era of Dmen ever, Conn Smythe, Captained World Cup Gold against Canada.

Even if somehow Leetch forgot how to play hockey after 97 (he didn't), Leetch circa 89-97 was better than Lidstrom was at any point in his career. Prime Leetch could take over games by himself, which Lidstrom was never capable of doing. Strong defender, but he just wasn't that type of player.

And as far as Lidstrom not having to be paired with Beukeboom? Yeah, poor Lidstrom. He only played with teams stacked with HOF players his entire career. My heart bleeds for him.

I can see you won’t shoulder any blame on Leetch for his team being so bad from ‘98 on, despite spending lots of money and actually having a lot of talent on the roster. He was the captain for a few years there, leader in ice-time, and supposedly best player on the team, correct? He therefore absolutely had a big part in that’s teams failures, and was part of the reason they lacked stability that then resulted in so much roster turnover. Of course it’s not ALL his fault but stop pretending he was the only shining light on a bad team because he scored 79 points one season, while bleeding goals against at the same time.

The opposite is true for Lidstrom. They kept building around him. Even after the lockout when Yzerman and Shanahan left, he thrived as captain, the team took on his personality, and they were an elite team nearly until he retired (those last few season the team definitely took a step back) and he won another 3 Norris’ in a row. So you can have your unfounded claim that he only thrived in the DPE back.

Do you not realize the ‘94 playoffs was kind of the end of an era? It was the last high scoring playoffs and there was a stand up goalie in the finals (Kirk McLean). Leetch’s point totals in those playoffs and his big 101 season need to be adjusted for era. It’s not quite as great as you think, but it was a terrific run no doubt. What he didn’t do, was translate that type of play well to the DPE. His GA stats and high event play spell that out. He wasn’t in Lidstrom’s class from ‘98 on and Lidstrom’s prime went on and on as you know, well past the DPE and Leetch retiring.

Leetch circa 89-97 was better than Lidstrom was at any point in his career? He may have scored a few more points and jumped into the play more, but he couldn’t touch Lidstrom defensively. As I mentioned before, it seems that Leetch needed a Beukeboom type to really thrive, but Lidstrom played with so many different partners over the years and still won 7 Norris’ and 4 Cups and never let his team miss the playoffs. The Rangers had lots of HOFers but who was leading the way and steering the ship? You seem to claim it wasn’t Leetch...which is a problem any way you look at it.

 

[Bryce Newman]

LOL Rangers from 98 to 04 with Lidstrom would have the same the same amount of playoff years as they did with Leetch: Zero. Those were just awful teams with Leetch being the only player worth watching night in and night out. Stop blaming Leetch. He wasn't the GM who built those pathetic AHL teams. "Loads of talent" lol yeah sure. Those teams were compromised of over the hill players, old vets and cast-offs from other teams.

And saying "Lidstrom never let his team miss the playoffs" is like crediting Charlie Huddy for the 80s Oilers cups. Hate to break it to ya' but the Wings would have still made the playoffs and still won the same amount of cups with or without Lidstrom, assuming they replaced him with another good Defenseman.

And you do realize Leetch's 94 playoff run is the greatest ever for a Defenseman, right? There's no way to downplay it, sorry. Pure domination BOTH ends of the ice. I believe the phrase floating around back then for Leetch was "whispers of Bobby Orr". Words never uttered when speaking about Lidstrom.

 

[danincanada]

LOL Rangers from 98 to 04 with Lidstrom would have the same the same amount of playoff years as they did with Leetch: Zero. Those were just awful teams with Leetch being the only player worth watching night in and night out. Stop blaming Leetch. He wasn't the GM who built those pathetic AHL teams. "Loads of talent" lol yeah sure. Those teams were compromised of over the hill players, old vets and cast-offs from other teams.

And saying "Lidstrom never let his team miss the playoffs" is like crediting Charlie Huddy for the 80s Oilers cups. Hate to break it to ya' but the Wings would have still made the playoffs and still won the same amount of cups with or without Lidstrom, assuming they replaced him with another good Defenseman.

See, now you’ve gone too far and lost all credibility. Lidstrom = Huddy??? You have no idea how important Lidstrom was to those teams, that much is clear.

Leetch seemed to help lead the way in their futility. Team worst -36 one season? 157 GA in another? You’d think if Leetch was as great at you pretend those stats would actually stand out in a good way on a poor team but that’s not what happened.

 

[Oneiro]

I see Pronger has reached Niedermayer's level of being overrated.

Stevens > MacInnis, Pronger, Leetch, Niedermayer. I always thought Bourque and Coffey were a little overrated, so it's nice to see Lidstrom in the 2 spot. By the way, No. 27 was and still is my favorite player.

LOL at Murphy ahead of Keith and Karlsson.

 

[Bryce Newman]

See, now you’ve gone too far and lost all credibility. Lidstrom = Huddy??? You have no idea how important Lidstrom was to those teams, that much is clear.

Leetch seemed to help lead the way in their futility. Team worst -36 one season? 157 GA in another? You’d think if Leetch was as great at you pretend those stats would actually stand out in a good way on a poor team but that’s not what happened.

Weird how Leetch magically became great again in Toronto though, and strange how he was elite for a full decade before 98 as well. It's almost as if the team he was on was terrible from 98 to 04. Oh wait...they were.

 

[danincanada]

Weird how Leetch magically became great again in Toronto though, and strange how he was elite for a full decade before 98 as well. It's almost as if the team he was on was terrible from 98 to 04. Oh wait...they were.

Leetch played a grand total of 28 games with the Leafs. I live in Toronto and I remember it. He was great on the PP with McCabe. In the end his defensive play was still disappointing though and the Leafs didn’t bring him back. Going to the Leafs rejuvenated him for sure but you’re taking it too far.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

TRACEY MYERS
1. Bobby Orr; 2. Ray Bourque; 3. Nicklas Lidstrom; 4. Paul Coffey; 5. Al MacInnis; 6. Scott Niedermayer; 7. Chris Chelios; 8. Phil Housley; 9. Larry Murphy; 10. Sergei Zubov; 11. Denis Potvin; 12. Brian Leetch; 13. Larry Robinson; 14. Scott Stevens; 15. Zdeno Chara; 16. Duncan Keith

Tracey Myers was always awful so this list isn't surprising

Her putting Keith so low has to be some attempt to prevent people from claiming she is biased as she is ex-Hawks beat writer

Keith so low on lists is travesty

 

[NickyFotiu]

Super 16: Orr, Karlsson among best defensemen of expansion era

1. Orr
2. Lidstrom
3. Bourque
4. Robinson
5. Coffey
6. Potvin
7. Chelios
8. Leetch
9. Niedermayer
10. Park
11. MacInnis
12. Stevens
13. Pronger
14. Chara
15. Murphy
16. Karlsson

From his list I would rearrange the top 14 like this:
1. Orr
2. Borque
3. Potvin
4. Robinson
5. Lidstrom
6. Coffey
7. Leetch
8. Pronger
9. Chara
10. Stevens
11. Niedermayer
12. MacInnis
13. Chelios
14. Park

 

[NickyFotiu]

Leetch played a grand total of 28 games with the Leafs. I live in Toronto and I remember it. He was great on the PP with McCabe. In the end his defensive play was still disappointing though and the Leafs didn’t bring him back. Going to the Leafs rejuvenated him for sure but you’re taking it too far.

Leetch was never terrible as a Ranger. He was the only thing that kept us afloat for years. We had no other defense and really bad goaltending for years. The Rangers were a different team when we had a healthy Leetch even in those really bad Rangers years. When Mark Messier and Wayne Gretzky see and speak about your greatness then you have to be a pretty darn good player.

 

[Bryce Newman]

Leetch played a grand total of 28 games with the Leafs. I live in Toronto and I remember it. He was great on the PP with McCabe. In the end his defensive play was still disappointing though and the Leafs didn’t bring him back. Going to the Leafs rejuvenated him for sure but you’re taking it too far.

His tenure in Toronto is remembered fondly by Leaf fans and the lockout wiped out the 05 season. Nice try though making it seem like his "disappointing defense" was the reason. You're really going in hard with that lie. There were Leaf fans here on hf who were surprised by how well Leetch was defensively during his brief tenure there. Funny how they remember things differently than you do.

 

[danincanada]

Leetch was never terrible as a Ranger. He was the only thing that kept us afloat for years. We had no other defense and really bad goaltending for years. The Rangers were a different team when we had a healthy Leetch even in those really bad Rangers years. When Mark Messier and Wayne Gretzky see and speak about your greatness then you have to be a pretty darn good player.

Kept them afloat? They missed the playoffs every season from ‘98 until he left, which was his last 7 seasons. Hockey is a team game but, again, as their supposed best player and all-time great defenseman, who according to Bryce, was just as good as Lidstrom those years, you’d hope to see more from the team than we all saw. If anyone has a decent +/- on the team it should have been Leetch instead of often being near the bottom on the team instead.

 

[danincanada]

His tenure in Toronto is remembered fondly by Leaf fans and the lockout wiped out the 05 season. Nice try though making it seem like his "disappointing defense" was the reason. You're really going in hard with that lie. There were Leaf fans here on hf who were surprised by how well Leetch was defensively during his brief tenure there. Funny how they remember things differently than you do.

LOL, Leafs fans. He wasn’t awful defensively or anything but let’s just say he and McCabe were a lot better together offensively than defensively.

 

[Bryce Newman]

Kept them afloat? They missed the playoffs every season from ‘98 until he left, which was his last 7 seasons. Hockey is a team game but, again, as their supposed best player and all-time great defenseman, who according to Bryce, was just as good as Lidstrom those years, you’d hope to see more from the team than we all saw. If anyone has a decent +/- on the team it should have been Leetch instead of often being near the bottom on the team instead.

And Lidstrom the great would have propelled those terrible teams to greatness with his "stable presence" right? Right after he descended from the Heavens, of course.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Kept them afloat? They missed the playoffs every season from ‘98 until he left, which was his last 7 seasons. Hockey is a team game but, again, as their supposed best player and all-time great defenseman, who according to Bryce, was just as good as Lidstrom those years, you’d hope to see more from the team than we all saw. If anyone has a decent +/- on the team it should have been Leetch instead of often being near the bottom on the team instead.

I watched those games. The Rangers are my team. The reason Leetch had bad plus/minus in those years was because he was the best on a bad team with horrible defense and no goaltending. If you are bad the coach does not put you out there all the time. Leetch played PP. He played PK. He was out in the last minutes of games whether up or down a goal. One of the last years we missed the playoffs in we were very close and Brian's ankle injury was the difference. We were so much better with him. That is why Slats refused to trade him that year. Even in the bad years Brian was almost always an all star and a Norris candidate. Coaches are not dumb. They don't play a guy 26-29 minutes a night if he is not a very good player.

 

[NickyFotiu]

By the way to give you an example of how bad our goaltending was in those days I think we tried 6 different goalies in some years. Maybe more.

 

[Bryce Newman]

Leaf fans praising Leetch's brief tenure in Toronto, including his defense:
Brian Leetch - Toronto Maple Leafs

 

[NickyFotiu]

Guys the Brian Leetch you saw in Toronto/Boston was a 36 year old who had already dealt with a lot of injuries. I will tell you this. When the Rangers started making the playoffs Sather wanted Brian Leetch to come out of retirement and play for us again.

 

[Bryce Newman]

I watched those games. The Rangers are my team. The reason Leetch had bad plus/minus in those years was because he was the best on a bad team with horrible defense and no goaltending. If you are bad the coach does not put you out there all the time. Leetch played PP. He played PK. He was out in the last minutes of games whether up or down a goal. One of the last years we missed the playoffs in we were very close and Brian's ankle injury was the difference. We were so much better with him. That is why Slats refused to trade him that year. Even in the bad years Brian was almost always an all star and a Norris candidate. Coaches are not dumb. They don't play a guy 26-29 minutes a night if he is not a very good player.

Some people don't understand how plus/minus works unfortunately. In many instances, such as with Leetch, your plus/minus will suffer greatly if you're a great player on a bad team.

Leetch was very, very good defensively his entire career. On offense he was super elite. The definition of "2-way Defenseman" and very underrated because he played on a lot of bad teams, unfortunately.