NHL.com Best Dmen of the Expansion Era

[Kranix]

Lidstrom is right where he should be. An argument can made made for him at #1

Lol

 

[Confused Turnip]

Not any really great argument in my opinion, but probably not as ridiculous as Leetch scoring 2 points per game in a sweep against a team where the leading scorer had a point, and eleven points in seven while being a minus against the cinderella Canucks, or being the ninth highest scorer in the regular season, as more impressive peak performances than Orr’s.

I mean, I think it's indisputable that a great argument can be made for Lidstrom #2, whether that's where you rank him exactly or not. So I'm assuming it's the Lidstrom > Orr that you're struggling with, which is fair enough.

But think about it:
1) Orr missed games frequently vs Lidstrom, for a dman especially consistent availability and health is a big factor
2) Lidstrom won his trophies vs 30 teams instead of 12, who was Orr's biggest trophy competitor really? Larry Robinson eventually? Lidstrom's was arguably a fair bit tougher
3) the early '70s, while not the mid '80s, were the beginning of the wide open high scoring period where top players all had surprising totals
4) games played, again having a guy on the ice vs in retirement is a big advantage
5) any European player who started their career when Lidstrom did his was a trailblazer who put up with some real national level ethnic discrimination and abuse to get where he did. That can't go unremarked or ignored as part of their legacies, they did everything while playing the game on a massively higher difficulty level than the North American players did. Imagine if every Saturday some guy put a picture of you up on national TV and said your entire race was too pathetic to do your job and you're a failure, and how everyone from your homeland is garbage and all people like you are subhuman, and he was wildly popular and accepted by everyone in your line of work. Overcoming this barrier alone is more impressive than Orr's entire career in some sense tbh.

Holding that stuff against the fact that Orr scored more than anyone and completely took over two playoff runs, and had a generally incredible peak can certainly make an argument depending on what you value more.

 

[Kranix]

Where is Langway, Carlyle, Ellett, Ramage, Babych, Butcher, Ludwig etc???

 

[danincanada]

I mean, I think it's indisputable that a great argument can be made for Lidstrom #2, whether that's where you rank him exactly or not. So I'm assuming it's the Lidstrom > Orr that you're struggling with, which is fair enough.

But think about it:
1) Orr missed games frequently vs Lidstrom, for a dman especially consistent availability and health is a big factor
2) Lidstrom won his trophies vs 30 teams instead of 12, who was Orr's biggest trophy competitor really? Larry Robinson eventually? Lidstrom's was arguably a fair bit tougher
3) the early '70s, while not the mid '80s, were the beginning of the wide open high scoring period where top players all had surprising totals
4) games played, again having a guy on the ice vs in retirement is a big advantage
5) any European player who started their career when Lidstrom did his was a trailblazer who put up with some real national level ethnic discrimination and abuse to get where he did. That can't go unremarked or ignored as part of their legacies, they did everything while playing the game on a massively higher difficulty level than the North American players did. Imagine if every Saturday some guy put a picture of you up on national TV and said your entire race was too pathetic to do your job and you're a failure, and how everyone from your homeland is garbage and all people like you are subhuman, and he was wildly popular and accepted by everyone in your line of work. Overcoming this barrier alone is more impressive than Orr's entire career in some sense tbh.

Holding that stuff against the fact that Orr scored more than anyone and completely took over two playoff runs, and had a generally incredible peak can certainly make an argument depending on what you value more.

Terrific post covering the reasons why one could possibly rank Lidstrom over Orr. I can't bring myself to agree with it, however much I'd like to, but this would be the argument. The antithesis of the "peak guy", which is the "career guy". To me Orr is up there with Gretzky and Lemieux in terms of reaching that god-level of individual domination so it kind of trumps anything else for me.

I'm not sure where you are from but as a young Canadian guy growing up in the 80's, most people in Canada I knew didn't discriminate against European players. I guess it depended on where you grew up and your family background but that's not how I was raised. The Soviets probably got it the worst due to political/social propaganda but you did hear "chicken Swede" and silly stuff like that from people who just didn't have a clue. I couldn't care less where someone came from when it comes to hockey, or anthing in life. The Soviets coming over to the NHL ended up magnifiying how much I liked watching hockey. I don't want to imagine the early 90's without Fedorov, Bure, etc. I also thoroughly enjoyed Lidstrom's career and where would I be without Datsyuk in my world? I hope they keep coming...

I think for Lidstrom it wasn't so bad - this is coming from someone who wasn't there and hasn't been the target of discimintion much at all, so take it with a grain of salt. He had a whole organization backing him and for the most part his team accepted him with open arms from day one, as did Red Wings fans, so that makes dealing with prejudice people a lot easier. I remember stories about Fetisov/Kasatonov not being accepted right away on the Devils, and Don Cherry happily claimed this once on air, so that would be worse.

 

[Confused Turnip]

I'm not sure where you are from but as a young Canadian guy growing up in the 80's, most people in Canada I knew didn't discriminate against European players. I guess it depended on where you grew up and your family background but that's not how I was raised. The Soviets probably got it the worst due to political/social propaganda but you did hear "chicken Swede" and silly stuff like that from people who just didn't have a clue. I could care less where someone came from when it comes to hockey. The Soviets coming over to the NHL ended up magnifiying how much I liked watching hockey. I don't want to imagine the early 90's without Fedorov, Bure, etc. I also thoroughly enjoyed Lidstrom's career and where would I be without Datsyuk in my world? I hope they keep coming...

I think for Lidstrom it wasn't so bad - this is coming from someone who wasn't there and hasn't been the target of discimintion much at all, so take it with a grain of salt. He had a whole organization backing him and for the most part his team accepted him with open arms from day one, as did Red Wings fans, so that makes dealing with prejudice people a lot easier. I remember stories about Fetisov/Kasatonov not being accepted right away on the Devils, and Don Cherry happily claimed this once on air, so that would be worse.

That's fair. I came from the Soviet Union to Canada in the '80s and can tell you that the second someone heard the accent there was usually verbal abuse or worse coming on a daily basis. Don Cherry's name was invoked often, even outside hockey contexts. One example that always comes to mind is a hotel keeper in Niagara Falls hearing our accents then refusing us service and calling the police and threatening us with violence for trying to get a room (we were a family of employed professionals minding our own business on vacation but who cares) all while yelling endlessly about how his father fought in the War so it's his country and he decides who gets to stay and blah blah and we had to get out because we weren't humans, etc. The heroic Don Cherry was mentioned many times. Sadly this was pretty much routine at the time. So my general assumption is that other Europeans away from the rink would have been experiencing the same sort of frequent violence and discrimination.

 

[danincanada]

That's fair. I came from the Soviet Union to Canada in the '80s and can tell you that the second someone heard the accent there was usually verbal abuse or worse coming on a daily basis. Don Cherry's name was invoked often, even outside hockey contexts. One example that always comes to mind is a hotel keeper in Niagara Falls hearing our accents then refusing us service and calling the police and threatening us with violence for trying to get a room (we were a family of employed professionals minding our own business on vacation but who cares) all while yelling endlessly about how his father fought in the War so it's his country and he decides who gets to stay and blah blah and we had to get out because we weren't humans, etc. Sadly this was pretty much routine at the time. So my general assumption is that other Europeans away from the rink would have been experiencing the same sort of frequent violence and discrimination.

I'm sorry to hear this. I've never experienced that so I can't pretend to understand fully. I know it's off topic but when it comes to racism/prejudice all it takes is one person acting like a fool to make it feel like everyone feels that way. I believe what you experienced though. Maybe I was too young to realize this was going on for some at the time. I just know my father taught me that it didn't matter and I even remember him raving how strong the Swedes were on their skates when we watched a touring Peewee team play my home towns rep team. I wish I could go back and see who played on that Swedish team because I've wondered if anyone made the NHL. For people from the Soviet Union I do believe they encountered more prejudice due to the false political and social propaganda that came with it.

It's one of my pet peeves actually because most Canadians had family members/ancestors who immigrated here at one time and that's why they are here in the first place. Anyone who has an accent automatically knows at least one other language. Bet you most people who commented about your accent don't know two languages and probably aren't even great at the one they do know and many struggle with understanding accents because their minds are closed.

 

[Confused Turnip]

I'm sorry to hear this. I've never experienced that so I can't pretend to understand fully. I know it's off topic but when it comes to racism/prejudice all it takes is one person acting like a fool to make it feel like everyone feels that way. I believe what you experienced though. Maybe I was too young to realize this was going on for some at the time. I just know my father taught me that it didn't matter and I even remember him raving how strong the Swedes were on their skates when we watched a touring Peewee team play my home towns rep team. I wish I could go back and see who played on that Swedish team because I've wondered if anyone made the NHL. For people from the Soviet Union I do believe they encountered more prejudice due to the false political and social propaganda that came with it.

It's one of my pet peeves actually because most Canadians had family members/ancestors who immigrated here at one time and that's why they are here in the first place. Anyone who has an accent automatically knows at least one other language. Bet you most people who commented about your accent don't know two languages and probably aren't even great at the one they do know and many struggle with understanding accents because their minds are closed.

I very much appreciate your post. But honestly nothing to apologize for and I'm glad you have no such experiences. Nobody's fault but the assholes involved, my only point was to mention that said assholes existed rather regularly back in those days.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Outside of facing the Devils in the third round, the 1993-94 Rangers didn't exactly face tough competition on their way to winning the Stanley Cup.

First round

-faced the .500 New York Islanders who were 15th of 26 teams in points
-Islanders have zero hall of famers, no players top-10 in goals or points, or save percentage

Rangers beat the Islanders in four straight with Leetch compiling 8 points in 4 games

Second Round

-faced the 39-35-11 Washington Capitals who were 12th of 26 teams in points
-Washington has zero hall of fame players, zero players in the top-ten in goals, points, save percentage

Rangers beat the Capitals in 5 games with Leetch compiling 9 points in 5 games.

Third Round

-faced the 47-25-12 New Jersey Devils who were 2nd of 26 teams in points.
-Devils have four future hall of fame players in their lineup - Scott Stevens, Scott Niedermayer, Viacheslav Fetisov and Martin Brodeur
-Stevens finished 5th in points for defensemen, 2nd in Norris Trophy voting and was a 1st team all star; Brodeur finished 4th in save percentage in his rookie season

Rangers beat Devils in 7 games with Leetch compiling 6 points in 7 games.

Fourth Round

-faced the 41-40-3 (1 game above .500) Vancouver Canucks who were 14th of 26 teams in points.
- Canucks had one future hall of game player in their lineup - Pavel Bure.
-Bure finished 5th in points and 1st in goals with 60

Rangers beat the Canucks in 7 games with Leetch compiling 11 points in 7 games.

Overall, Leetch compiled 34 points in 23 games for an average of 1.46 pts/game

Let's look at the 71-72 Boston Bruins...

First Round

-Bruins faced the 33-31-14 (2 games above .500) Maple Leafs who were 6th of 14 teams in points.
-Leafs had five future hall of famers in their lineup - Norm Ullman, Darryl Sittler, Bernie Parent, Jacques Plante, and Dave Keon
-Jacques Plante finished in 6th in Save Percentage, and Parent finished 8th in save %; Paul Henderson finished 10th in goals.

Bruins beat the Leafs in 5 games with Orr compiling 9 points in 5 games.

Second Round

-faced the 28-39-11 (9 games under .500) Blues who were 8th of 14 teams in points
-Blues had 0 Hall of Famer players and no players in the top-10 in points, goals or save %

Bruins beat the Blues in 4 games with Orr compiling 7 points in 4 games.

Third Round

-Bruins faced the 48-17-13 Rangers who were 2nd of 14 teams in points.
- Rangers had four future hall of famers in their lineup - Jean Ratelle, Rod Gilbert, Brad Park and Ed Giacomin
-Ratelle, Hadfield and Gilbert finished 3rd, 4th, and 5th in total points; Hadfield finished 2nd in goals, Ratelle finished 5th in goals, and Gilbert finished 7th in goals; Brad Park was 2nd in points for defenseman
-Ratelle made the 2nd all star team, finished 4th in voting for the Hart Trophy AND FNISHED 1ST in VOTING FOR THE PEARSON (as voted by the players); Hadfield made the 2nd all star team and finished 5th in Hart voting; Gilbert made the 1st all star team and finished 10 in hart voting; Park made the 1st all star team, finished second in Norris voting and 9th in Hart voting.

Bruins beat the Rangers in 6 games with Orr compiling 8 points in 6 games.

Overall, Orr compiled 24 points in 15 games for an average of 1.6 points per game.

So Orr has Leetch beat in points per game by a margin of .14 per game. NHL goals per team per game in 71-72 were 3.07 per game compared to 3.24 in 93-94 for a difference of .17 per game. This further strengthens the argument for Orr in the playoffs.

As for the playoff competition, Leetch and the Rangers had a relatively easy path to the conference finals first dispatching with a mediocre Islanders team (no hall of famers, no top-10 point producers)...followed by a slightly better but unimpressive Capitals team devoid of any true stars.

Bruins commenced the playoffs against tougher competition, facing a Leafs team with a late prime Norm Ullman and prime Dave Keon - one of the best two-way players the NHL has ever seen. Add in a goalie tandem of two future hall of famers that managed to put together two top-ten save percentages in Plante (late career) and Parent (early prime) against a more formidable opponent. The second round was considerably easier facing a Blues team of mostly average to mediocre players.

Back to the Rangers, their true test came in the 3rd round vs. the Devils - arguably the second best team in the league. This was Leetch's least impressive series compiling 6 points in 7 games and as we all know New York won this series primarily because of the efforts and Messier (with an assist from Richter).

In contrast, Orr maintained more consistent point production accumulating 8 points in 6 games versus the 72 Rangers (second best team in the league) as the Bruins beat the Rangers in 6 games. Of note, Orr and the Bruins shut down Ratelle (Pearson award winner) as he only managed one point in the series.

In the 94 finals, the Rangers faced an average NHL team - not what you would expect in the finals, but that's what happened. The Canucks were a team with a handful of somewhat notable players and only one hall of famer in Bure. Bure still managed to do some damage in this series with 8 points in 7 games. Leetch managed 11 points in 7 games.

Overall, Leetch managed 28 points in 16 games versus relatively weak competition (Vancouver, Washington, NYI) for a 1.75 points/game average. Versus tough competition (Jersey) Leetch managed a .85 pts/game average. Orr's offense, in contrast, appears much more consistent - 1.75 pts/game average versus weak competition (Blues), 1.8 pts/game average vs. tougher competition (Toronto) and a 1.33 pts/game average vs. extremely tough competition (Rangers).

In conclusion, Orr has Leetch beat on offensive production (pts/game) which is even more prominent when you factor in the the slight differential in offense from 71-72 versus 93-94. Orr faced tougher competition in the playoffs, even factoring in a weak St. Louis team. Toronto, 72 New York Rangers > New Jersey Devils. Lastly, Orr 's offensive production versus the tougher competition (Toronto and 72 Rangers) was greater than Leetch versus the only tough team he faced, the Devils. Also, of note, the teams Orr and the Bruins faced gave up fewer goals on average than the teams Leetch's Rangers face in 94.

Unless Leetch's defensive play was considerably better than Orr's ( imo is extremely unlikely), Bobby has the superior playoff run...which shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[boredmale]

15. Murphy

Larry to me was a guy who was consistently good for a long time but never great

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I mean, I think it's indisputable that a great argument can be made for Lidstrom #2, whether that's where you rank him exactly or not. So I'm assuming it's the Lidstrom > Orr that you're struggling with, which is fair enough.

But think about it:
1) Orr missed games frequently vs Lidstrom, for a dman especially consistent availability and health is a big factor
2) Lidstrom won his trophies vs 30 teams instead of 12, who was Orr's biggest trophy competitor really? Larry Robinson eventually? Lidstrom's was arguably a fair bit tougher
3) the early '70s, while not the mid '80s, were the beginning of the wide open high scoring period where top players all had surprising totals
4) games played, again having a guy on the ice vs in retirement is a big advantage
5) any European player who started their career when Lidstrom did his was a trailblazer who put up with some real national level ethnic discrimination and abuse to get where he did. That can't go unremarked or ignored as part of their legacies, they did everything while playing the game on a massively higher difficulty level than the North American players did. Imagine if every Saturday some guy put a picture of you up on national TV and said your entire race was too pathetic to do your job and you're a failure, and how everyone from your homeland is garbage and all people like you are subhuman, and he was wildly popular and accepted by everyone in your line of work. Overcoming this barrier alone is more impressive than Orr's entire career in some sense tbh.

Holding that stuff against the fact that Orr scored more than anyone and completely took over two playoff runs, and had a generally incredible peak can certainly make an argument depending on what you value more.

Uh point #5, Borje Salming started almost 20 years before Lidstrom. THAT was a trailblazer who faced incredible animosity. Not to say the NHL wasn't still opening up in the early 90's but those guys faced nothing compared to the early guys.

Not trying to dismiss the point but just find it almost insulting to the actual trailblazers (having seen what they went through).

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Uh point #5, Borje Salming started almost 20 years before Lidstrom. THAT was a trailblazer who faced incredible animosity. Not to say the NHL wasn't still opening up in the early 90's but those guys faced nothing compared to the early guys.

Not trying to dismiss the point but just find it almost insulting to the actual trailblazers (having seen what they went through).

Yeah, not meaning to trivialize what guys like Lidström and Sundin might have gone through, but I do think, having read many interviews, that most of the Swedes arriving at that point, faced a progressively more open environment as compared to the previous years. In the 90s, there had been many successful and well respected Europeans around for years, and you rarely had to feel as lonely as the previous generation tended to, on almost any given team. I wouldn’t be surprised if Russians faced vastly different conditions to the Swedes or Finns, however, due to anti-Russian sentiment likely being more prevalent, more toxic and for longer.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Yeah, not meaning to trivialize what guys like Lidström and Sundin might have gone through, but I do think, having read many interviews, that most of the Swedes arriving at that point, faced a progressively more open environment as compared to the previous years. In the 90s, there had been many successful and well respected Europeans around for years, and you rarely had to feel as lonely as the previous generation tended to, on almost any given team. I wouldn’t be surprised if Russians faced vastly different conditions to the Swedes or Finns, however, due to anti-Russian sentiment likely being more prevalent, more toxic and for longer.

Agreed. In the late 80's early 90's it would have been more difficult for Russians as they were still having to pull fast ones to even leave (plus cold war etc.). Even today Russians face problems in their own country. Perceptions overseas are in part linked to their own climate. But to use as a main point in Lidstrom vs Orr difficulties of a Swede "trailblazing" in the 90's isn't a very valid point IMO.

While not linked to any xenophobic incident, I have always felt the photo of Salming with 250+ stitches in his face was the perfect summary of what he endured.