Nationality and US popularity

[Lard_Lad]

Gordie Howe is from Floral, SK. Not exactly a metropolis.

It's just outside Saskatoon, and Gordie grew up and learned his hockey in the city. He's not a country boy.

Players in rural areas today tend to have problems getting competition and exposure unless they're close enough to an urban area. It's a lot easier for a junior scout to evaluate a kid playing AAA in the city against known competition. A great rural player can overcome that - Shea Weber's a good example - but the ones that are merely good can get ignored (not entirely without justification - some junior teams have taken chances on guys who looked like superstars playing against single-A competition and gotten burned when the kid tanked as soon as he ran into better players.)

 

[barneyg]

This site (http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv/birthplaces.cgi?country=CA&province=MB&state) lists 359 Manitobans, past and present, in the NHL. While Winnipeg and Brandon (two largest cities in MB) are the birthplaces of a lot of the players, there are a lot of rural communities on that list -- everything from Foxwarren to Hartney to Beausejour. Some of these guys were NHL stars, too, like Bobby Clarke (Flin Flon) and Ed Belfour (Carman).

The list for Saskatchewan (http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv/birthplaces.cgi?country=CA&province=SK&state=) is even longer (477 players) and is even more varied in terms of the number of rural communities represented. Gordie Howe is from Floral, SK. Not exactly a metropolis.

I'm pretty sure you'll find the same across Canada.

I'm sure you can, but your OP (implicitly) suggested that players come from rural areas in disproportionate numbers, compared to the general population. I think it's good folklore but I'm not sure the numbers really back that up.

 

[Fidel Astro]

I'm sure you can, but your OP (implicitly) suggested that players come from rural areas in disproportionate numbers, compared to the general population. I think it's good folklore but I'm not sure the numbers really back that up.

Nope, sorry. Instead of speculating on what my post is "implicitly suggesting," maybe you should check what the post actually said... not to mention the follow-up, where I said "I don't know" how true that commonly-held idea about rural players is.

 

[barneyg]

Calm down, I didn't mean this to be a personal attack. You wrote:

This is interesting, because I think a large percentage of pro hockey players from Canada (and likely the northern US as well) are from rural backgrounds.

Define "large percentage" -- that has to be relative to population. That's why I wrote "implicitly suggesting". Whatever.

 

[LadyStanley]

asktheduffer
#USAHockey announces 2012 women's #IIHF championship to be held April 7-14 in Burlington, Vermont.



http://www.facebook.com/USAHockey#!/video/video.php?v=744171033137
(Video of announcement)

 

[captainpaxil]

It seems as though many of the critics on this forum just don't like that the League wants to sell the game in places where an interest in hockey wasn't already widely established. You're criticizing the League for trying to expand the market for its product. That's like criticizing Japanese auto companies for trying to get into the American market. At first it was a struggle to get established, but little by little, over the years, many North Americans came to realize that the Japanese made a better product, in most cases, than the established American auto companies.

the japanese succeeded by selling smaller more fuel efficient cars. the same product but different tweaks. they also market it rather differently here than there.

Gambling is a factor, but I think you're overstating the case. The majority of people watching any given football game are not financially invested in it, especially at the college level. People simply enjoy watching the sport.

If anything, I'd say gambling destroyed boxing and racing, and general corruption is the source of MLB's backslide. The NBA is treading a fine line with its refs. The only sports that have stayed clean, ie legitimate, are the NFL and NHL. I like being on that side of the fence.

there was 90 million dollars bet on last years super bowl just on-line. the betting line (or spread) is listed next to every football game, college and pro. its an integral aspect of the sports success. pro picks are in every newspaper in america. its what gets casual fans invested in the sport.

the nfl has made itself vegas friendly exactly by avoiding corruption. every injury report is clean and the officiating is far above the other sports in that its consistent from game to game and team to team. hockey has to do at least those two things before theyll get vegas' attention.

How do you solve that problem? Despite freak snowstorms like the one we've been talking about, outdoor ice is obviously not going to become a permanent fixture somewhere like Atlanta, so what can you do? By the sounds of things, it's not that kids are uninterested, it's that it's not feasible for their parents to sign them up.

you de-emphasize skating. from at least a marketing perspective. as the league attempts to grow the market you have to allow the game to fit the marketplace. high impact collisions without all the stops and starts of football. its a constant edge of your seat form of entertainment. the anticipation is part of its appeal, is this guy gonna score or get clobbered first?

people who like little foreign guys doing dipsy doos are gonna watch soccer which you can stick your kid in for almost no startup cost and the nhl will get creamed if they try that niche.

 

[Fidel Astro]

you de-emphasize skating. from at least a marketing perspective. as the league attempts to grow the market you have to allow the game to fit the marketplace. high impact collisions without all the stops and starts of football. its a constant edge of your seat form of entertainment. the anticipation is part of its appeal, is this guy gonna score or get clobbered first?

people who like little foreign guys doing dipsy doos are gonna watch soccer which you can stick your kid in for almost no startup cost and the nhl will get creamed if they try that niche.

I don't think that fast-paced, high-impact sport you're talking about can even exist without strong skaters, though. Unless you want to create an entire youth league full of barely-mobile goons, putting an emphasis on skating is important.

 

[Captain Mittens*]

living on the island we will get one or two big time hot spells that last for about a week that might be comparable to a North Carolina summer.

They are not comparable, not at all.

Carolina is regularly more humid than Vancouver ever is. Vancouver's weather compares far more with San Francisco's than Carolina's

 

[Fidel Astro]

They are not comparable, not at all.

Carolina is regularly more humid than Vancouver ever is. Vancouver's weather compares far more with San Francisco's than Carolina's

-39 C this morning in Winnipeg (including windchill). Does that mean we win? Do we get a prize?

 

[MoreOrr]

-39 C this morning in Winnipeg (including windchill). Does that mean we win? Do we get a prize?

LOL... I'd say, it means you lose! How many of the League's players would really want to live in that climate?

 

[tarheelhockey]

there was 90 million dollars bet on last years super bowl just on-line. the betting line (or spread) is listed next to every football game, college and pro. its an integral aspect of the sports success. pro picks are in every newspaper in america. its what gets casual fans invested in the sport.

Again I agree it's a factor, but it's not the leading reason for the NFL's success among casual fans. Office pools attract some casual fans, but it's not like the majority of people are in them. And online betting reaches much more of a hardcore audience of people who are often as much fans of gambling as fans of football. I'd say free online fantasy football has more overall impact than online gambling sites.

the nfl has made itself vegas friendly exactly by avoiding corruption.

Completely agree, and they deserve credit for swimming against the tide. It highlights how utterly stupid MLB was to play fast and loose with steroids.

They are not comparable, not at all.

Carolina is regularly more humid than Vancouver ever is. Vancouver's weather compares far more with San Francisco's than Carolina's

I think the question is whether Vancouver compares more with Toronto or Carolina.

 

[Captain Mittens*]

I think the question is whether Vancouver compares more with Toronto or Carolina.

The correct answer would be neither.

They are totally different climates

that's like asking if So Cal's weather is closer to NY's or Texas'




and to answer the topic. US fan's don't care about the players nationality. they want their team's to win

What has been holding hockey back here is the labor problems, the game on the ice before the lockout and HORRIBLE marketing by the NHL

Completely agree, and they deserve credit for swimming against the tide. It highlights how utterly stupid MLB was to play fast and loose with steroids.

Remember baseball was far and away #1 before the strike

Baseball was trying to catch lightning in a bottle and reclaim market share. In the long run. It did work.
The sport does have a black eye but it has reclaimed a lot of it's lost marketshare

 

[MoreOrr]

The correct answer would be neither.

They are totally different climates

that's like asking if So Cal's weather is closer to NY's or Texas'

and to answer the topic. US fan's don't care about the players nationality. they want their team's to win

What has been holding hockey back here is the labor problems, the game on the ice before the lockout and HORRIBLE marketing by the NHL


Remember baseball was far and away #1 before the strike

Baseball was trying to catch lightning in a bottle and reclaim market share. In the long run. It did work.
The sport does have a black eye but it has reclaimed a lot of it's lost marketshare

I think this all began because I said that Raleigh's winters were slightly more 'severe' (a relative term) than Vancouver's, and from the info I posted, tarheel decided that Raleigh's climate is quite comparable. In fact, it's not at all similar, except with respect to the winter conditions which certainly are more comparable than between Vancouver and Toronto. The whole idea of considering Raleigh's year-round climate as similar to Vancouver's is simply wrong, and was never implied to begin with!

 

[Fidel Astro]

LOL... I'd say, it means you lose! How many of the League's players would really want to live in that climate?

Probably a lot of them. Most of the players from Canada, northern Europe and the northern US (almost every player in the entire league) grew up in cold climates.

 

[tarheelhockey]

that's like asking if So Cal's weather is closer to NY's or Texas'

Which isn't a ridiculous question if you're trying to figure out whether Los Angelinos can play outdoor hockey.

and to answer the topic. US fan's don't care about the players nationality. they want their team's to win

100% true.

Remember baseball was far and away #1 before the strike

Baseball was trying to catch lightning in a bottle and reclaim market share. In the long run. It did work.
The sport does have a black eye but it has reclaimed a lot of it's lost marketshare

I don't think it worked. MLB never came close to #1 even with some incredible storylines going on. In exchange for a brief period of making headlines, many of which involved corruption allegations even while they were happening, they pretty much lost the integrity of their record books. Baseball has always had a unique culture around its stats, awards, Hall of Fame, and other "timeless" features that create connections across the generations. Now there is a massive gap where those connections are severed. Likewise there's a generation of kids who really don't care about MLB at all unless they have a team in their city. That's a massive step backward for a sport that used to have the American sporting culture almost all to itself.

I'm sure there are a lot of old men who got richer during that period, but they really fell on their own sword when it was all said and done.

 

[MoreOrr]

Probably a lot of them. Most of the players from Canada, northern Europe and the northern US (almost every player in the entire league) grew up in cold climates.

Not going to debate it, other than to say... cold is one thing, -30 degree temperates is quite another. And just because a lot of hockey players grew up in cold weather climates doesn't mean that most of them want to live in the extremest of cold weather conditions, not if they can help it. Not them nor their families. And it's another thing if Winnipeg or Manitoba is where they're from, because then it's at least "home" for them, but if a player is not from there... Simply, I don't think it would be most players preference of a place to live (and I'm only referring to weather). Sorry!

 

[Fidel Astro]

Not going to debate it, other than to say... cold is one thing, -30 degree temperates is quite another. And just because a lot of hockey players grew up in cold weather climates doesn't mean that most of them want to live in the extremest of cold weather conditions, not if they can help it. Not them nor their families. And it's another thing if Winnipeg or Manitoba is where they're from, because then it's at least "home" for them, but if a player is not from there... Simply, I don't think it would be most players preference of a place to live (and I'm only referring to weather). Sorry!

I don't know...I guess it would depend on the individual player, but I think a lot of Canadian players, if given the choice, would prefer to play for a Canadian team. I don't know if the cold would be much a factor, considering that, again, most players are from northern regions anyway. Also, they're on the road for half the season and would spend the off-season living wherever they wanted, so I really don't see extreme temperature as a deal-breaker for most players.

 

[MoreOrr]

I don't know...I guess it would depend on the individual player, but I think a lot of Canadian players, if given the choice, would prefer to play for a Canadian team. I don't know if the cold would be much a factor, considering that, again, most players are from northern regions anyway. Also, they're on the road for half the season and would spend the off-season living wherever they wanted, so I really don't see extreme temperature as a deal-breaker for most players.

Well, I said I didn't want to debate it and certainly I don't wish to carry this discussion too far, but I'm not necessarily implying that Winnipeg's weather, or Edmonton's for that matter, or Quebec City's, would be a "deal-breaker". However, assuming that the more talented players in the League have more options open to them with respect to where to sign, I'd say that the attractiveness of the place would be considered to some degree. As a relatively young and single player, there are likely lots of NHL cities that would be more attractive (for a number of reasons) than Winnipeg. As a married player, with Winnipeg being the place where his wife and kids would live at least throughout the winter and likely during the whole school year, again, if his wife isn't from such a extremely cold place then that could weigh into the consideration.

But we are really OT for this thread, I think...

 

[captainpaxil]

I don't think that fast-paced, high-impact sport you're talking about can even exist without strong skaters, though. Unless you want to create an entire youth league full of barely-mobile goons, putting an emphasis on skating is important.

i think thats the crux of it right there. you dont empahsize skating you emphasize why skating is important (to be able to avoid contact in confined space) and let the game speak for itself. first time hockey players are all "barely mobile goons" but vertical skating is an easier skill to develop than lateral. you basicly eliminate charging and simplify hooking/slashing/highsticking to "ya cant touch the other guy with your stick" every player on the ice is then free and able to initiate contact with the puck carrier. get better or get burnt is an incentive, your just not good enough is a roadblock.

Again I agree it's a factor, but it's not the leading reason for the NFL's success among casual fans. Office pools attract some casual fans, but it's not like the majority of people are in them. And online betting reaches much more of a hardcore audience of people who are often as much fans of gambling as fans of football. I'd say free online fantasy football has more overall impact than online gambling sites.

lol. the nfl developed monday night football so that people could get one more game to recoup their sunday losses. gamblers are the coveted 18-34 demographic of sports ratings. its the primary mechanism (of which fantasy sports and office/bar pools are examples) by which you turn a team fan into a league fan. i dont think i can emphasize enough how much your underestimating its impact.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://www.sharkspage.com/?p=3622

San Jose Sharkspage blog looks at the efforts of the Sharks to reach out to young fans (to keep the fan base growing).

 

[htpwn]

-39 C this morning in Winnipeg (including windchill). Does that mean we win? Do we get a prize?

Iqaluit is projected to be -49 with windchill Monday night. Frostbite in less then 5 minutes in those temperatures.

 

[Fidel Astro]

Iqaluit is projected to be -49 with windchill Monday night. Frostbite in less then 5 minutes in those temperatures.

People in Iqaluit are hard as ****.

See, that's a town players would probably avoid going to. Winnipeg is borderline tropical compared to that.

 

[tarheelhockey]

lol. the nfl developed monday night football so that people could get one more game to recoup their sunday losses. gamblers are the coveted 18-34 demographic of sports ratings. its the primary mechanism (of which fantasy sports and office/bar pools are examples) by which you turn a team fan into a league fan. i dont think i can emphasize enough how much your underestimating its impact.

In a room of 100 people watching an NFL game, how many do you think have wagered money on the outcome?

In a stadium of 75,000, how many?

 

[captainpaxil]

In a room of 100 people watching an NFL game, how many do you think have wagered money on the outcome?

In a stadium of 75,000, how many?

in philly where i live theres a guy who will take your bet in every bar, which is where i assume your going to get 100 people in a room to watch sports. at 1 oclock youll have maybe 15 people who have money on the game but by 4 there will be 30 as guys discuss the action going on and whos doing well and whos up and whos down. someone will like a different four oclock game and one of the tvs will switch to a different game. you have fans of one team watching games from 3 and thus the league and not just the home team gets a ratings bump. gambling is the ultimate form of word of mouth marketing when it comes to sports. 1 guy bets and tell 10-20 people about his bet and how he knows so much about football that he can win money on it.

in a stadium of 75,000 how many people bet on a nfl game this year or learned about the nfl from someone who did? my estimate 50,000

 

[tarheelhockey]

in a stadium of 75,000 how many people bet on a nfl game this year or learned about the nfl from someone who did? my estimate 50,000

Of course there's no way we could really get a hard number on this, but I think that's a dramatic overestimate. How many people in the stadium are children? How many are women (not that women can't gamble on sports, but they do it at a much lower rate)? And the way you phrase the estimate -- bet an A game in a 12-month range or have contact with someone who did -- inflates the importance of betting. Just because I threw $5 in the office pool for the Super Bowl doesn't make me a sports gambler, nor does it mean I am following the game because I bet on it, and it certainly doesn't have a connection to my decision to take the kids to see a random regular season game. If I'm at that game, it's because I'm interested in the entertainment aspect of the NFL for its own sake. That's the angle where the NFL absolutely crushes all other sports, and it's the reason that last weekend's games between 4 popular franchises drew the equivalent of 4 World Series ratings.

In regard to bar bookies -- I wouldn't consider that a "casual" fan's interest as it is mostly limited to habitual gamblers. Yes, it's a widespread activity and almost unique to the NFL, but I don't see it as having a huge impact outside of its own limited circle.