Nationality and US popularity

[htpwn]

Sure, I know they failed. Perhaps the NBA gave up too quickly, and perhaps MLB did an NHL version of Phoenix in Montreal (I know, an over-generalization) holding on too long, but the point is that why should the NHL expect anything much different in the deep south of the US?

They shouldn't IMO.

The NBA put two teams in Canada, one failed, one is a success.

The MLB put two teams in Canada, one failed, one is a success.

I see something similar for the NHL down south. For every Carolina and Dallas, there's a Phoenix and Atlanta.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Ok, tarheel, I'll hold you to that. But in the meantime, I guess you'd say that all these years without a national TV deal has just been an investment for the future. And in the meantime, it would seem that the big US TV networks haven't seen much evidence for why they should get in on that lucrative US nation-wide TV hockey market.

I would characterize it as the entire league becoming a trainwreck between the lockouts, and pretty much destroying its TV value in every imaginable way -- slow boring games, lack of name-value stars, over-rapid expansion, labor problems, and finally the botching of the last round of TV negotiations.

Yes, the NHL was smart to invest in getting a major TV deal. That doesn't mean anything in terms of how they followed through.

Seattle too close to Vancouver... come on, tarheel.

It was a wild guess. I really don't know how MLB feels about Vancouver.

 

[captainpaxil]

Your first and last paragraphs are great but CLASS WARFARE

Acording to this logic hockey should only be played in canada and Northern US

Skating is like running in the NFL (actually CFL would be more appropreate) because everyone needs to run (in the CFL, i dont watch enough nfl to watch the O line)

its the difference in culture. the further south you go the more expensive ice time is. which means a kid who spends alot of time skating has more discretionary income. in canada all that time crosby spent skating makes him come off as dedicated in america it makes him a spoiled rich kid.

the o line is the place where even the fat kid gets to play. hes got a job, protect the quarterback. emmit smith bought his whole o'line expensive christmas gifts every year,theyre a vital part of the game. guys who cant skate are ridiculed. protecting the skill players or goaltenders is a job for lesser players when they arent being phased out.

i dont think its a matter of hockey should only be played in the north and canada i think its a matter of people being uncomfortable with inverting the canadian/european dynamic. until now a rugged western canadian kid was the definition of a tough heart and soul player but thats not the picture a kid in atlanta has in his head. the canadian is the fancy skating guy now. stay at home d, enforcers, powerforwards (guys who cant skate) thats how you sell the game south of the border. imo its not a coincindence the 67 expansion ushered in a new level of goonery and the de emphasis on said players is going to lead to the recent expansion fizzling.

 

[MoreOrr]

Yes, the NHL was smart to invest in getting a major TV deal. That doesn't mean anything in terms of how they followed through.

Actually, I meant investment in putting teams in all those deep southern markets for the future huge TV revenues that supposedly will be the result.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Actually, I meant investment in putting teams in all those deep southern markets for the future huge TV revenues that supposedly will be the result.

Yes, the revenue being made possible by the TV deal, which is made possible by having teams in large TV markets. Investing in the markets = investing in a better TV deal

 

[Killion]

Actually, I meant investment in putting teams in all those deep southern markets for the future huge TV revenues that supposedly will be the result.

Expansion & relocations were never predicated upon the league securing lucrative broadcasting contracts'. It was & still largely is based upon real estate plays, arena development & management contracts, merchandising sales & concessions & lastly, local & national broadcasting rights & fee's.....Here in Canada of course, broadcasting revenues have always been healthy, with resistance from the established teams to share going back to 1970, with punishment doled out to the Jets & Nordiques when they were absorbed into the league that played a larger than advertised reason for both franchises eventual relocations. That sense of entitlement still exists up here, which makes for a Winnipeg/QC/Hamilton re-entry problematical.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Please: no more NBA teams in Canada! One, that is rarely heard or spoken of, is enough! An NFL team in Toronto would destroy the CFL. It`s not worth it. MLB? Is that a sport? There`s still a team in Toronto, correct? I don`t see a huge demand for additional franchises in these leagues in Canada. I do, however, see a demand for more NHL franchises. I could be wrong, though.

GHOST

nfl team in toronto would not dystroy the CFL in Toronto the attendance there is the worst in the league they need to do something

 

[MoreOrr]

I was in the process of posting this in the thread:
"Could re-alignment mitigate 'othering' of non-traditional markets?"
when it got closed.
But I figure it could fit here:

Hockey is a business, we all know that, it's a business now first and foremost. And like any other business, the League has been trying to expand its market territory. You have a product, you think it's a great product, you don't just keep it in the town where you created it, you try to offer it up to a wider audience. If all the NHL did was to put teams in places where a majority of people already have an appetite for hockey, the League wouldn't really be doing much to develop the business side of the sport, which is what it is, a business. Now logically one doesn't try to sell a fleece winter coat to someone lying on a tropical beach, but wherever you think there's a potential to develop a market, you do it.

It seems as though many of the critics on this forum just don't like that the League wants to sell the game in places where an interest in hockey wasn't already widely established. You're criticizing the League for trying to expand the market for its product. That's like criticizing Japanese auto companies for trying to get into the American market. At first it was a struggle to get established, but little by little, over the years, many North Americans came to realize that the Japanese made a better product, in most cases, than the established American auto companies.

 

[Killion]

Now logically one doesn't try to sell a fleece winter coat to someone lying on a tropical beach, but wherever you think there's a potential to develop a market, you do it.

All valid points, though drawing a parallel between the automotive sector, product qualitiy & dealership locations to sports properties doesnt compute; those stairs dont reach my attic. The NHL's history of expansion, the WHA merger & relocations' have, in virtually every single instance been "reactive" as opposed to being "proactive". All of it based more on who can pony up franchise fee's, staving off anti-trust threats, what best benefits the insiders etc as opposed to any marketing, regional or geographic rationale. Purely Financial. Happenstancial. Planned & loosely based on the NBA model by Ziegler & a few power brokers within the BOG's back in the 80's.

Rather than consolidating their bases through a concerted & planned effort to truly grow the game & sink deep foundations that can withstand the trials & tribulations of a fickle fan base & erratic economy, franchises awarded via chequebook marketing. The owners left to their own devices without oversite. Aide programs eventually established which in many many cases are completely insufficient to stem the flowing of red ink. A flawed CBA. Strategically & theoretically I have absolutely no problem with the number of teams & locations weve' arrived at, purely by accident. For sure several teams should be moved, however, I sincerley believe hockey can work in Texas, Arizona, Florida etc. We cant turn back the clock. Anathema to the current non-contractionist regime. As a hockey purist, traditionalist & yes, ELITIST, I support the ideal of teams south of the Mason-Dixon, Southwest, California & to be perfectly candid, would support same in Mexico City & eventually Sao Paulo in terms of a Pan-North American League. European, far eastern (including Australia & NZ) divisions.

A lot of work to be done to get their, fix whats busted, doable. First, we take Manhattan.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

I was in the process of posting this in the thread:
"Could re-alignment mitigate 'othering' of non-traditional markets?"
when it got closed.
But I figure it could fit here:

Hockey is a business, we all know that, it's a business now first and foremost. And like any other business, the League has been trying to expand its market territory. You have a product, you think it's a great product, you don't just keep it in the town where you created it, you try to offer it up to a wider audience. If all the NHL did was to put teams in places where a majority of people already have an appetite for hockey, the League wouldn't really be doing much to develop the business side of the sport, which is what it is, a business. Now logically one doesn't try to sell a fleece winter coat to someone lying on a tropical beach, but wherever you think there's a potential to develop a market, you do it.

It seems as though many of the critics on this forum just don't like that the League wants to sell the game in places where an interest in hockey wasn't already widely established. You're criticizing the League for trying to expand the market for its product. That's like criticizing Japanese auto companies for trying to get into the American market. At first it was a struggle to get established, but little by little, over the years, many North Americans came to realize that the Japanese made a better product, in most cases, than the established American auto companies.

Could it be then, that the North American in Atlanta will realize, little by little, over the years, that hockey is a better product than football.

 

[MoreOrr]

Could it be then, that the North American in Atlanta will realize, little by little, over the years, that hockey is a better product than football.

Perhaps not, but a greater number of them may gradually come to realize that it is an entertaining sport and a sport that some of them (or their kids) might like to get into.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Could it be then, that the North American in Atlanta will realize, little by little, over the years, that hockey is a better product than football.

Perhaps so. If you had said in 1950 that football would overtake baseball as the pro sport of choice, people would have said it was insane to even talk that way. But it happened, largely because MLB rotted away from the inside while the NFL was chipping away at the fringes. Once the NFL got established on national TV, it didn't take long for the culture to shift.

Not to say this is guaranteed to happen for hockey, but it's more possible than we think over a 30-year period.

 

[AllByDesign]

Well stated, Tarheel.

 

[Fidel Astro]

Perhaps so. If you had said in 1950 that football would overtake baseball as the pro sport of choice, people would have said it was insane to even talk that way. But it happened, largely because MLB rotted away from the inside while the NFL was chipping away at the fringes. Once the NFL got established on national TV, it didn't take long for the culture to shift.

Not to say this is guaranteed to happen for hockey, but it's more possible than we think over a 30-year period.

I think hockey certainly has the potential to increase its number of American fans, but it will never, ever surpass the traditional sports in most of the US, for reasons that have already been discussed ad nauseum. (The lack of facilities for kids to play is a major reason, and unless Atlanta starts miraculously getting outdoor ice, that ain't changin')

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think hockey certainly has the potential to increase its number of American fans, but it will never, ever surpass the traditional sports in most of the US, for reasons that have already been discussed ad nauseum. (The lack of facilities for kids to play is a major reason, and unless Atlanta starts miraculously getting outdoor ice, that ain't changin')

done

BTW, bear in mind that the biggest sports in the USA 60 years ago were baseball, boxing and horse racing. Times change.

 

[HabsByTheBay]

done

BTW, bear in mind that the biggest sports in the USA 60 years ago were baseball, boxing and horse racing. Times change.

College football was just as big as boxing and horse racing..so it wasn't implausible that once the NFL got their stuff together the professional game wouldn't follow. The public appetite was there.

It's difficult to see where hockey's boost will come from. Pro football's came from it being perfect for television and the AFL/NFL war. Soccer is getting their growth from enormous playing numbers (40x hockey's) and the diversification of America. Hockey isn't great on TV and not a lot of people play it outside the traditional strongholds.

It's possible hockey finds a new way of reaching fans but I don't know what their angle will be just yet.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's possible hockey finds a new way of reaching fans but I don't know what their angle will be just yet.

IMO, the answer to that question is going to lie in the league's ability to get fans closer to the game itself. Hockey is an incredible sport to watch live, by far and away better than the other Big 3. On TV, not so much. How to bridge that gap, is the tough part.

Just speculating, but I think hockey's big moment is going to come when home entertainment technology takes another step or two. Football on TV kinda sucked when it was a grainy B&W image that tried to follow the ball around the field. On a big-screen color TV... different story. Hockey is taking a similar step forward with HD, but you still can't get a great sense of the whole rink and the speed of the game. The gap is smaller but it's still there.

 

[captainpaxil]

done

BTW, bear in mind that the biggest sports in the USA 60 years ago were baseball, boxing and horse racing. Times change.

not really they were all largely driven by gambling then and football replaced baseball as the best sport to gamble on because of the parity. action drives ratings in football to an alarming degree.

meanwhile hockey is a very difficult sport to gamble on, fluke goals bad calls inconsistent injury reporting. the nhl as a product needs to show more consistency before it will garher vegas' and then americas attention in a major way.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Gambling is a factor, but I think you're overstating the case. The majority of people watching any given football game are not financially invested in it, especially at the college level. People simply enjoy watching the sport.

If anything, I'd say gambling destroyed boxing and racing, and general corruption is the source of MLB's backslide. The NBA is treading a fine line with its refs. The only sports that have stayed clean, ie legitimate, are the NFL and NHL. I like being on that side of the fence.

 

[AllByDesign]

IMO, the answer to that question is going to lie in the league's ability to get fans closer to the game itself. Hockey is an incredible sport to watch live, by far and away better than the other Big 3. On TV, not so much. How to bridge that gap, is the tough part.

Just speculating, but I think hockey's big moment is going to come when home entertainment technology takes another step or two.

I think you are bang on. NBC does a decent job at their presentation, but it has a way to go. As much as I getest the CBC, they realy have the hockey presentation down to an art. If I may be indulged I'd like to relay a personal story.

There was a time when I worked in the audio field. One of my best memories was as the point technician for the 2004 NHL allstar game in St. Paul Minnesota. One of my duties (and there were many) was to run the audio at the Alumni dinner. The NHL alumni have their annual award evening at the main hotel in the host city of the allstar game. That year they were honouring Al Arbour. There were a series of videos that were put together by a few of the TV providers for the NHL. They were to be played at various points through the evening. The compilation provided by the CBC was at a level far beyond the ones provided by TSN and NBC. The president of the NHL alumni made it abundantly clear that if the NBC ever decided to co-partner with the CBC on hockey presentation they would change the entire future of the sport and how it is received.

On that evening, I couldn't have agreed more.

 

[HabsByTheBay]

Gambling is a factor, but I think you're overstating the case. The majority of people watching any given football game are not financially invested in it, especially at the college level. People simply enjoy watching the sport.

If anything, I'd say gambling destroyed boxing and racing, and general corruption is the source of MLB's backslide. The NBA is treading a fine line with its refs. The only sports that have stayed clean, ie legitimate, are the NFL and NHL. I like being on that side of the fence.

Um, where are you getting this MLB is corrupt stuff from?

I am amused, particularly when you toot the NFL's horn, a league which has had strange calls when the spread is involved.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Um, where are you getting this MLB is corrupt stuff from?

I am amused, particularly when you toot the NFL's horn, a league which has had strange calls when the spread is involved.

Starting with Pete Rose and extending through the steroid era, it's been a solid 30 years since baseball lost its aura of purity. Throw in the broken labor system and you have a league which is fundamentally driven by greed and deceit. The better side of baseball has been completely overshadowed by scandals related to competitive fairness.

The NFL and NHL have their warts, but MLB has seething boils. College football is headed down a similar path and I wouldn't be surprised at all if a generation or two from now you have male Americans who don't give a flip about it.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Um, where are you getting this MLB is corrupt stuff from?

I am amused, particularly when you toot the NFL's horn, a league which has had strange calls when the spread is involved.

I took his MLB comment to mean PEDs. FWIW, the NHL clearly doesn't want to know whether steroids and HGH are in play.

 

[Fidel Astro]

done

"This video is not available in your country."

 

[Bear of Bad News]

"This video is not available in your country."

You can probably take a guess, then, by what he was responding to, and the responses already made to his video.