Nationality and US popularity

[Fidel Astro]

I think the Canadian media is more to blame for the backlash against the new markets than anything else. I personally don't understand why they wouldn't just be pissed at ownership for moving the team.

The backlash against the new markets is because no one in the new markets gives a **** about the teams. How would you feel if someone took something from you against your will and then blatantly neglected it, expecting you to be happy about it?

 

[Captain Mittens*]

The backlash against the new markets is because no one in the new markets gives a **** about the teams. How would you feel if someone took something from you against your will and then blatantly neglected it, expecting you to be happy about it?

As I mentioned before. It happened with the Rams and Raiders

I lost two teams to your one.

Have you seen the Raiders record or the mess that they were in since they left Los Angeles?

I don't expect you to know much about the Rams but the Rams went from one of the premier NFL franchises to Georgia Frontiere(allegedly) drowning her husband and then doing everything possible to move the team to her native St. Louis

Do you know the Rams drew 90,000 as a losing team in 1990 and struggle to draw 40,000 in St Louis

but unlike you, I don't blame the new markets, I blame the owners that moved the teams.

Phoenix didn't move your team, the ownership group did. You should be mad at them and not Phoenix

 

[TaketheCannoli]

I don't think the salary cap was instituted just to protect southern teams, but I think the league was quite happy to be rid of teams like the Jets, Nordiques and Whalers, as they provided openings for the southern expansion plan. The NHL didn't even make a half-assed attempt to save those teams, and yet, 15 years later, look what they're doing in Phoenix.

Changes to the league's policies aside, it's pretty obvious where the NHL's priorities lie, and unfortunately, it's not in the country where their biggest and most loyal fanbase is located.

The bolded part is where you lose me. I can understand a guy from Winnipeg being hirt and angry when his team leaves. I can also understand fans from Hartford feeling the same way. I just don't believe any league is pro-US or pro-Canada. The league office is pro-NHL owners. They change the policies to suit the whims of the ownership group, and I think their individual loyalties are to themselves, not countries.

 

[Fidel Astro]

I can't speak for anyone else, but if they took my most local baseball teams, I wouldn't shed a tear. If they took my favorite football team, c'est la vie' Oh, that's right, they did! Frankly, I wouldn't where they put them, but rather THAT they were taken. Frankly, and I think this is common at least where I live, when a team moves if it's to Baltimore or Winnipeg is irrelevant. I certainly don't think of the Blue Jays as a damn furreign team. I never thought of the Expos or Grizzlies as damn furr-eigners either. Now them damn people in the southeastern US, that's a different story

You're also in a superpower of a country that tries to impose its will on everyone it can, especially its friendly neighbour upstairs. Do you have any idea how infuriating that is? We're not "America Junior," despite what a lot of people in the US believe.

Careful- I'm a white guy who made a living playing the Blues. Wanna hear my Robert Johnson stuff? How 'bout my Ledbelly?

No, I'd rather listen to the original records, thank you very much. That's the point. The Phoenix Coyotes are a bad cover version of the Winnipeg Jets, and I'm sure your Robert Johnson covers pale in comparison to the real thing.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

As I mentioned before. It happened with the Rams and Raiders

I lost two teams to your one.

Have you seen the Raiders record or the mess that they were in since they left Los Angeles?

I don't expect you to know much about the Rams but the Rams went from one of the premier NFL franchises to Georgia Frontiere(allegedly) drowning her husband and then doing everything possible to move the team to her native St. Louis

Do you know the Rams drew 90,000 as a losing team in 1990 and struggle to draw 40,000 in St Louis

but unlike you, I don't blame the new markets, I blame the owners that moved the teams.

Phoenix didn't move your team, the ownership group did. You should be mad at them and not Phoenix

See- in Ohio public enemy #1 was Art Modell, not Baltimore.

 

[Fidel Astro]

Phoenix didn't move your team, the ownership group did. You should be mad at them and not Phoenix

I'm not mad at the fans in Phoenix or the city of Phoenix because the Jets moved there. I'm mad at the "fans" in Phoenix because they can't even be bothered to support the team despite the fact that it's in real danger of being moved.

If they even pretended that they cared, this whole thing would be a lot less frustrating. Actually, if the Coyotes fans held a "Save the Yotes" rally that was as big as the one we had for the Jets back in the day, I would probably stop complaining about them completely. They have a massive population down there. Getting that many people out should be a piece of cake.

Hasn't happened. Won't happen. Ever. That's my beef with the Phoenix fans. They were lucky enough to benefit from our loss, and they have completely ignored the gift they were given. They don't give a ****, so **** 'em.

Also, please read up on the history of the Jets and the reasons why the team was forced to leave if you think the owners somehow sold us out.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

You're also in a superpower of a country that tries to impose its will on everyone it can, especially its friendly neighbour upstairs. Do you have any idea how infuriating that is? We're not "America Junior," despite what a lot of people in the US believe.

No, I'd rather listen to the original records, thank you very much. That's the point. The Phoenix Coyotes are a bad cover version of the Winnipeg Jets, and I'm sure your Robert Johnson covers pale in comparison to the real thing.

I've never heard a single person refer to Canada as America Jr. before your post. That's a good one.


I think we view Canada similarly to the way we view the UK, Australia, New Zealand etc. friendly English speaking foreign countries, not versions of America. I do think Americans think we have more in common with people from those countries than say, Russia or Japan or even Mexico.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

You're also in a superpower of a country that tries to impose its will on everyone it can, especially its friendly neighbour upstairs. Do you have any idea how infuriating that is? We're not "America Junior," despite what a lot of people in the US believe.



No, I'd rather listen to the original records, thank you very much. That's the point. The Phoenix Coyotes are a bad cover version of the Winnipeg Jets, and I'm sure your Robert Johnson covers pale in comparison to the real thing.

By the way, Albert King once claimed the very best blues musicians of the next generation are Stevie Ray and Gary Moore- both are white and Moore is Irish!

 

[Fidel Astro]

I think we view Canada similarly to the way we view the UK, Australia, New Zealand etc. friendly English speaking foreign countries, not versions of America. I do think Americans think we have more in common with people from those countries than say, Russia or Japan or even Mexico.

I think this has gone way off track here, and if I say what I really think about America, I'll probably get some moderators on my ass, so I'm just going to leave this aspect of the discussion alone.

 

[Captain Mittens*]

I'm not mad at the fans in Phoenix or the city of Phoenix because the Jets moved there. I'm mad at the "fans" in Phoenix because they can't even be bothered to support the team despite the fact that it's in real danger of being moved.

If they even pretended that they cared, this whole thing would be a lot less frustrating. Actually, if the Coyotes fans held a "Save the Yotes" rally that was as big as the one we had for the Jets back in the day, I would probably stop complaining about them completely. They have a massive population down there. Getting that many people out should be a piece of cake.

Hasn't happened. Won't happen. Ever. That's my beef with the Phoenix fans. They were lucky enough to benefit from our loss, and they have completely ignored the gift they were given. They don't give a ****, so **** 'em.

Also, please read up on the history of the Jets and the reasons why the team was forced to leave if you think the owners somehow sold us out.

I know about the Jets leaving and at the end of the day the owners sold the team to out of country interests and your rage should be directed at them

As far as Phoenix fans go....the team has been badly managed and has had little to no success there. Same goes with Atlanta and the Florida Panthers.
(I can talk about the Expos here if you like)
Now compare Phoenix and Atlanta to San Jose. San Jose is at 100%+Capacity every game.
it's bad management and ownership much more than the market(same as the Islanders)

Did the citizens of Phoenix bum rush Jerry Colangelo and bribe or threaten him to make him buy the team and move it there?

 

[tarheelhockey]

See- in Ohio public enemy #1 was Art Modell, not Baltimore.

And I've never heard someone from Baltimore speak ill of Indianapolis either.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

And I've never heard someone from Baltimore speak ill of Indianapolis either.

Yes, but in Ohio, we hate all SEC teams!



Honestly, if the Columbus Blue Jackets moved away, I'd rather they went to Winnipeg/QC or Hartford than Baltimore. what I'd really like is for them to go away and someone put a decent AHL team in its place. As a season ticketholder, I am appalled at the terrible value that is the CBJ. Since you're in ACC country you can understand this- I can get center court seats to OSU Buckeye basketball for $30 ea. I can get Center ice hockey tickets to the Cleveland AHL team for about $20. I can get just CBJ tickets non-premium lower bowl for $85 ea. Trust me the game experience at an OSU game is much more professional than the Blue Jackets.

 

[Captain Mittens*]

Perhaps from his view, but he asked to drop it.

Back to the topic at hand, what do you think would happen to NHL hockey if all those "ballers" playing HS sports played hockey? Can you imagine it? Since you are an LA guy, what if Reggie Bush was a left winger? DAMN

Imagine Kings blue line with OJ Mayo!

LOL

Hockey is picking up here. Most people see Bobby Ryan's birthplace of NJ and don't realize that he grew up in LA (El Segundo)
I know Etem and Beau Bennett are opening people's eyes but I think in about 10-15 years, Cali is going to be producing a lot more NHLers

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yes, but in Ohio, we hate all SEC teams!



Honestly, if the Columbus Blue Jackets moved away, I'd rather they went to Winnipeg/QC or Hartford than Baltimore. what I'd really like is for them to go away and someone put a decent AHL team in its place. As a season ticketholder, I am appalled at the terrible value that is the CBJ. Since you're in ACC country you can understand this- I can get center court seats to OSU Buckeye basketball for $30 ea. I can get Center ice hockey tickets to the Cleveland AHL team for about $20. I can get just CBJ tickets non-premium lower bowl for $85 ea. Trust me the game experience at an OSU game is much more professional than the Blue Jackets.

Yeah, that's something I don't even try to bring up when it comes to Hurricanes attendance trends. Here in the Triangle we have 1) Duke, the defending national champion 2) UNC, the national champion before them and 2-time winner in 5 years 3) NC State, a smaller but still respectable program 4) Wake Forest, also smaller but has its own niche. Tickets to any of those games are half as expensive a good Hurricanes ticket. It is theoretically possible for all 4 of them to play the same night as the Canes. And they all have football teams of varying magnitudes as well.

Really, the newer teams simply can't afford to have poor value in that kind of marketplace.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Yeah, that's something I don't even try to bring up when it comes to Hurricanes attendance trends. Here in the Triangle we have 1) Duke, the defending national champion 2) UNC, the national champion before them and 2-time winner in 5 years 3) NC State, a smaller but still respectable program 4) Wake Forest, also smaller but has its own niche. Tickets to any of those games are half as expensive a good Hurricanes ticket. It is theoretically possible for all 4 of them to play the same night as the Canes. And they all have football teams of varying magnitudes as well.

Really, the newer teams simply can't afford to have poor value in that kind of marketplace.

Yeah, I don't think people can really understand unless they've lived in ACC,SEC, BIG10 or BIGXII country.
But to really take things full circle, in Columbus fans are not partial to players by nationality
Its more by personality. I think the most popular Blue Jackets player for a number of years was Jody Shelley. Fedorov was popular. Nash is too. An American, Umberger is probably 2nd to Nash today, but more because of his lunch pail work ethics.
Ad far as teams go, fans are most interested in the Wings, Blackhawks and Pens, but after that the most popular are the Habs Flyers, Rangers and Leafs. The western teams and southeastern teams- Flames,Oilers, Coyotes, Wild, Kings and Ducks draw the least interest.

At least in my hometown, nationalism doesn't do ****.



Nash is

 

[Killion]

They don't give a ****, so **** 'em.

Great lyrics, wrong chord Fidel. Your issues with the drive-bye league & its miscreant owners. The fans are just innocent by-standers. Im a Leafs fan, hence a masochist who doesnt know any better. Brainwashed in the 60's. Flashbacks. Substance abuse issues. Not healthy. To expect same from the citizenry in Nashville or Phoenix, Raleigh or Atlanta would be a peculiar form of Schadenfreude indeed, that misery loves company, and oh how I wish every other team was as bad or worse than mine, currently sitting in what?. 29th?. I lost my free will in about 1962, all hope completely on a Saturday night in September of 1967, along with my mind, but thats another story...

I think we view Canada similarly to the way we view the UK, Australia, New Zealand etc. friendly English speaking foreign countries, not versions of America.

Thanks. Shame you cant get Goo Goo Babies & Little Debbies up here huh?.

By the way, Albert King once claimed the very best blues musicians of the next generation are Stevie Ray and Gary Moore- both are white and Moore is Irish!

And Buddy Guy claim's he crawled around in the grass with Rattlesnakes when he was a little boy. Believe him. Never a good idea to pick an argument let alone pick a fight with axe wielders. Better ya'll pick your nose. And thats damn straight. All I hafta say about that...

 

[tarheelhockey]

But to really take things full circle, in Columbus fans are not partial to players by nationality
Its more by personality.

Absolutely. Carolina has several Finns and they are hugely popular. You see Finnish flags in the crowd on a regular basis. If anything, the fans actually seem to like that they stand out from the other players.

By comparison, we have one of the most American teams in the league with 7 regular players. I've never heard anyone mention that before, and the popular American players like LaRose and Cole are popular for other reasons.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Absolutely. Carolina has several Finns and they are hugely popular. You see Finnish flags in the crowd on a regular basis. If anything, the fans actually seem to like that they stand out from the other players.

By comparison, we have one of the most American teams in the league with 7 regular players. I've never heard anyone mention that before, and the popular American players like LaRose and Cole are popular for other reasons.

Yes Columbus has this group of Swedish fans. They unfurl a Swedish flag and cheer like crazy. There are a couple of Finns who sit near me. I'm a few rows behind the visitor's bench. When the opponents have any Finns they yell at them in Finnish all game. When the Coyotes were in town, they just gave Lauri Korpikouski hell all night.

So in the end, players nationality means nothing here.

 

[AllByDesign]

Am I missing a discussion on Blue's history? I don't mean the hockey team either.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Am I missing a discussion on Blue's history? I don't mean the hockey team either.

Hey buddy, take it down to the crossroads. We don' cotton to that kinda talk in heah.

 

[Captain Mittens*]

Am I missing a discussion on Blue's history? I don't mean the hockey team either.

Is Kenny Wayne Shepherd the Alexandre Daigle of Blues music?

 

[AllByDesign]

Hey buddy, take it down to the crossroads. We don' cotton to that kinda talk in heah.

Iw'm down at the crossroads with the devil by my side.... Damn.. can't finish the lyric... crimony that "offensive posting" rule...

Is Kenny Wayne Shepherd the Alexandre Daigle of Blues music?

That is a most spectacular comparison. I think you deserve an award.

 

[captainpaxil]

Of course there's no way we could really get a hard number on this, but I think that's a dramatic overestimate. How many people in the stadium are children? How many are women (not that women can't gamble on sports, but they do it at a much lower rate)? And the way you phrase the estimate -- bet an A game in a 12-month range or have contact with someone who did -- inflates the importance of betting. Just because I threw $5 in the office pool for the Super Bowl doesn't make me a sports gambler, nor does it mean I am following the game because I bet on it, and it certainly doesn't have a connection to my decision to take the kids to see a random regular season game. If I'm at that game, it's because I'm interested in the entertainment aspect of the NFL for its own sake. That's the angle where the NFL absolutely crushes all other sports, and it's the reason that last weekend's games between 4 popular franchises drew the equivalent of 4 World Series ratings.

In regard to bar bookies -- I wouldn't consider that a "casual" fan's interest as it is mostly limited to habitual gamblers. Yes, it's a widespread activity and almost unique to the NFL, but I don't see it as having a huge impact outside of its own limited circle.

but how did the game attract your attention in the first place? gambling is an adult activity and seperates a game like poker from a game like dodgeball. the perfect example as you showed before is fantasy football which started as an excuse for people to gamble on and grew up. attempts to start at fantasy sports and grow down havent worked because the root motivation isnt there. football is seen as a superior sport because it is a superior gambling avenue.

Mod: deleted.

Absolutely. Carolina has several Finns and they are hugely popular. You see Finnish flags in the crowd on a regular basis. If anything, the fans actually seem to like that they stand out from the other players.
.

like vikings


its marketing. it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the player resembles the stereotype its whether he does enough to believe the hype.

the american frontier was a different experience. hence the popularity of each teams enforcer(call the sheriff) and the emphasis on fierce individualism (4 tool players skate,pass, score and fight) is contrary to the sense of fair play (skill players dont have to fight, goons who cant skate etc)

theres no denying hockeys canadian roots but if its going to grow it has to change and the mistake the league is making is that on one hand theyre pushing american expansion and at the same time saying "play my game my way or ill take my teams and go home" anb dthe big american tv deal will happen once the league realizes its going to look absolutely nothing like tsn

 

[TaketheCannoli]

but how did the game attract your attention in the first place? gambling is an adult activity and seperates a game like poker from a game like dodgeball. the perfect example as you showed before is fantasy football which started as an excuse for people to gamble on and grew up. attempts to start at fantasy sports and grow down havent worked because the root motivation isnt there. football is seen as a superior sport because it is a superior gambling avenue.

While without a doubt football is a very popular sport for gamblers, the vast majority of football fans are not gambling on football. Studies show that in 2001 65% of American men and 42% of American women considered themselves football fans (Gallup survey).


MOD: deleted.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

As I mentioned before. It happened with the Rams and Raiders

I lost two teams to your one.

Have you seen the Raiders record or the mess that they were in since they left Los Angeles?

I don't expect you to know much about the Rams but the Rams went from one of the premier NFL franchises to Georgia Frontiere(allegedly) drowning her husband and then doing everything possible to move the team to her native St. Louis

Do you know the Rams drew 90,000 as a losing team in 1990 and struggle to draw 40,000 in St Louis

but unlike you, I don't blame the new markets, I blame the owners that moved the teams.

Phoenix didn't move your team, the ownership group did. You should be mad at them and not Phoenix

Talk about revisionist history! Rams have never averaged less than 50,000 per season in St. Louis....and that's only been recently because they have had so many consecutive losing seasons. Before that they were selling out all their games. OH, and they have had more success in St. Louis than they ever had in LA. 2 SuperBowl appearances and 1 win.

This team will be back on top in the next few seasons with one of the best young quarterbacks in the game and the sellouts will be commonplace once again. DOn;t worry L.A. will eventually get a team.....just hope it's not my Vikings!