Name the centres better than Eichel today

[summer tooth]

i believe like 4 of the last 6 posts are me saying this.....

Oh oops! How about Sid the Kid, or possibly Patrice Burgeron?

 

[summer tooth]

Who do you think is carried the Penguins on his back all season long and got them 1st place in the MassMutual East? Santa Claus?

Sidney the Kidney would love to give other players a piggy-back ride guaranteed

 

[Guttersniped]

If you had a franchise center matrix and went through the various categories, Jack Eichel could conceivably come out much lower than you'd first expect.

In terms of individual peak numbers, a career high of 36 goals and 82 points and a 0.95 PPG average is not particularly impressive even if you factor in a Buffalo Sabres coefficient, whatever it would be. Puts you in a Mark Scheifele territory.

In terms of being a big game player, he's never really been in a position to have to deliver in a big moment, so he's untested in that category.

In terms of the "intangibles" category where you might compare him to older franchise centers who have more evolved defensive details, emergent leadership qualities etc, he's never even taken the Sabres to a middle of the pack level with his scoring, so we've never seen him have to demonstrate the other stuff to gain an edge.

In terms of elevating teammates, which could be an "intangible" quality, not a lot of guys have thrived playing with Eichel. Maybe Jeff Skinner when he had his one 40 goal year in Buffalo, but you can look at a number of high picks and a handful of bigger ticket acquisitions and it's not that good.

Is playing hurt an intangible? Being a “warrior”? Because Eichel certainly has played hurt plenty in an attempt to get his team into the playoffs.

[Eichel] stumbled to just two goals and 18 points in 21 games this season but detailed a laundry list of reasons. In addition to the herniated disk, Eichel had a sprained ankle, suffered a broken rib before training camp and played through an abdominal injury that’s lingered since 2019-20 and is “unresolved.”

Jack Eichel and Sam Reinhart vent frustration with Sabres. Is a trade next and how soon?

Eichel had a “upper body injury” in 2019-20. He had 24 goals and 50 points in 35 games before he missed one game, he was scratched after a morning skate in 12/19, and was listed as day-to-day. The missed game ended his 17 game point streak. The Sabres lost 1-6 and Eichel didn’t miss another game.

It sound like Eichel had been playing with something that had gotten worse.

“It’s not something that came out of nowhere,” Eichel said after practicing this afternoon inside KeyBank Center.

Eichel, who’s day-to-day, according to coach Ralph Krueger, has dealt with the injury well. The slick center carried a 17-game point streak into Thursday’s game, the second-longest in franchise history.

But after skating in the pregame warm-up, the Sabres announced Eichel would be out.
“It’s obviously frustrating,” Eichel said. “You never want to not be on the ice with the team. I’m a competitive guy, I want to be out there every night. But I thought it was the best for me at that time.”

The Sabres have remained tight-lipped about Eichel’s injury, offering few details. Eichel spoke for less than a minute today.

“It’s upper body, and we’ll leave with that,” Krueger said.

https://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/s...s-offers-few-details-about-upper-body-injury/

Before the missed game Eichel had 24 goals and 50 points in 35 games. After the missed game, due the mystery “upper-body injury”, Eichel had 12 goals and 28 points in 33 games.

And now the Athletic says he’s been playing with an “ ‘unresolved’ abdominal injury that’s lingered since 2019-20”. So that could be something significant that he’s been playing through for a long time. (And I’m not sure why.)

And the Athletic also mentioned an ankle sprain. Eichel sprained his ankle against the Devils on 2/23, missed two games and them came back. (He had a high ankle sprains in 2016 and 2018 that caused him to miss a good chunk of time both seasons.) The team was 6-13-3 but Eichel got his ass back on the ice to try to stop the losing and he had four assists in five games until his head went into the boards.

I’m not a Sabres fans but I do have sympathy for the them and I do think Eichel is taking a lot shit for being on a bad team. I also think his unwillingness to play with a herniated disk comes from playing hurt a lot recently, with his team’s (perhaps questionable) blessings. I’m guessing he’s in a lot of pain right now and he probably feels like the team is trying gaslight him about his own pain management.

 

[Guttersniped]

Yeah all Eichel has had is former 30 or 40 goal scorers like Jeff Skinner or Evander Kane while Barkov turned guys like Noel Acciari and Carter Verhaeghe into goal scoring machines.

Eichel's scoring ability comes at the expense of stopping the other team from scoring. Maybe the reason the Sabres haven't even sniffed the playoffs or played a meaningful game after Thanksgiving in his whole career has something to do with him.

Jonathan Huberdeau and Aaron Ekblad are such anchors too. And Hoffman, Jagr, Marchessault, Dadonov... Barkov is an elite player but it’s not like he’s played with trash cans or that Eichel of all players has had better line-mates through his career.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Sidney the Kidney would love to give other players a piggy-back ride guaranteed

What did I ever do to you?!

 

[summer tooth]

What did I ever do to you?!

Hehe! I meant Cindy the player silly. I hope he will have a so-so game tomorrow though and let the Isles get the W.

 

[FLpanthers16]

Jonathan Huberdeau and Aaron Ekblad are such anchors too. And Hoffman, Jagr, Marchessault, Dadonov... Barkov is an elite player but it’s not like he’s played with trash cans or that Eichel of all players has had better line-mates through his career.

Yeah Seth griffin is such a stud, or the two Hofs in Sean bergenhein and Brad Boyes, lets not forget Mason Marchment also a beast, Carter V and Anthony Duclair was well known superstars before joining us, i can keep going.



Dadanov is doing well with out Barkov right? Ottawa fans want him out.

 

[FLpanthers16]

Yeah Seth griffin is such a stud, or the two Hofs in Sean bergenhein and Brad Boyes, lets not forget Mason Marchment also a beast, Carter V and Anthony Duclair was well known superstars before joining us, i can keep going.



Dadanov is doing well with out Barkov right? Ottawa fans want him out.

 

[FLpanthers16]

Delete.

 

[Tender Rip]

Reading this thread, I have to say that Eichel seems overrated.
He’s scored 30 goals once and been above a ppg average twice in six seasons. He’s also not a very effective defensive player.

There’s a lot of talent, and as an asset he is obviously highly desirable for most teams. But fully healthy he wouldn’t be in my top 10 for guys I’d choose to win a game with in the playoffs. Barely top 20.

 

[Guttersniped]

Yeah Seth griffin is such a stud, or the two Hofs in Sean bergenhein and Brad Boyes, lets not forget Mason Marchment also a beast, Carter V and Anthony Duclair was well known superstars before joining us, i can keep going.



Dadanov is doing well with out Barkov right? Ottawa fans want him out.

Did I name any players that Barkov didn’t play on a line with? (Other than Ekblad.) I was responding to someone who had only named Jeff Skinner, Evander Kane, Noel Acciari and Carter Verhaeghe. (And Barkov barely played Acciari and has played with Verhaeghe for one season.) So I pointed out that Barkov has played with some excellent forwards and named them. It was pretty simple.

 

[jetsforever]

I think Eichel's getting a bit underrated now because of his bad season and possible attitude issues, but he's up there for sure.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It is harder and harder to justify Eichel over Aho at this point. I have him 8th when healthy.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Sure. Let's do 2019-20, Eichel's most recent healthy season.

In 2019-20, Jack Eichel put up 78 points in 68 games for a rate of 1.15 PPG. His nearest teammate was Sam Reinhart who put up 50 points in 69 games. The second best clip on the team was Viktor Olofsson with 42 points in 54 games for a clip of 0.78 PPG. Jack Eichel scored 56% more than his nearest teammate in raw totals, and he scored at a 48% higher clip than Olofsson.

Let's look at by how much the players you mentioned outproduced their teammates.

• Aho scored 68 in 68, Teravainen 66 in 68, Svechnikov 61 in 68.
  • 2 points! 3% more PPG!
• Barzal scored 60 in 68, Nelson 54 in 68.
  • 6 points! 11% more PPG!
• Matthews scored 80 in 70, Marner 67 in 59, Tavares 60 in 63, Nylander 59 in 68.
  • 13! 1% more PPG!
• Draisaitl scored 110 in 71, McDavid 97 in 64, RNH 61 in 65.
  • 13 points! 2% more PPG!
• Point scored 64 in 66, Killorn scored 49 in 68, Hedman scored 55 in 66, Stamkos scored 66 in 57, Kucherov scored 85 in 68.
  • -21 points! Won't even bother!
• Barkov 62 in 69, Huberdeau 78 in 69, Hoffman 59 in 69.
  • -16 points! 26% less PPG!
• Eichel scored 78 in 68, Reinhart 50 in 69, and Olofsson 42 in 54. 28!
  • 28 points! 48% more PPG!

Am I going to have to do some more math, maybe draw in some advanced statistics, or is it clear to see that Buffalo won't be going anywhere since there aren't enough people on that roster near Eichel's level? Wax lyrical about scoring depth, the importance of a good defensive core and goaltending? The impact of coaching not only on evens, but PP and PK?

P.S. McDavid and Draisaitl both passed 100 points in 18-19. Their team picked #8 overall that year after having picked #10 overall the year previous. Lots of talk about an unhappy, dysfunctional locker room. I guess McDavid stopped contributing to a healthy, winning environment after the 2017 playoffs before checking his attitude for 19-20.

These are very good numbers, no doubt.

However, they are 1) a bit misleading and 2) skirting around the other issues people have brought up, since not a single person said Eichel wasn't an extremely gifted offensive player.

1) Yes he outscored the next highest teammates on his team. However (and you are picking 1 single year to do this for, for some reason) they weren't the "worst" offensive team in the league. They were the 6th worst. Eichel was on a team that scored more goals than Barzal's NYI. ES ppg Eichel was .74 and Barzal was .71. Now let's do this year: Eichel's BUF is STILL outscoring Barzal's NYI. Eichel ES PPG- .43, Barzal- .67 That said: Eichel is a better offensive player than Barzal. When healthy he most likely will put up more pts than Barzal (especially since Barzal is playing on a team with far tighter defensive systems that require more D commitment... I mean if you are going to throw Eichel's poor coaching in as an excuse, then you also have to include that while Trotz is a great coach, his numbers will absolutely deflate pure scoring).

2) Speaking of Defense- The knock on Eichel isn't that he's not a great point producer. He is. The question, and it's been there since before BU (I live in the Merrimack Valley and have heard about Eichel since he was pretty young) is whether he's a "winning" player. Now I tend to poo poo those kinds of criticisms because a lot of it is totally team dependent... but Eichel does have an "attitude" or "ego" that does affect how he plays. He plays "Hard" but he doesn't play disciplined or smart and that shows up in the defensive numbers.

Looking at last season, since you want to cherry pick that one.... and since you are very hung up with comparing Eichel's numbers with the Fs on his own team.. here are the F's on BUF last year who had a lower Goals Aganist/60 than Eichel:

Michael Frolik
Jimmy Vesey
Johann Larson
Kyle Okposo
Zemgus Girgensons
Vlad Sobotka
Victor Olofsson
Casey Mittelstadt

Eichel was deadsmack in the middle... meaning on a really bad team, he was mediocre in stopping goals. Of course, that's even worse when you consider that he's facing other team's best defensive players, trying to stop him from scoring, while opposing teams are saving their scoring lines for BUF's weak (as you admit) rest of the roster.

And with all his outscoring his teammates....by far as you know... he was 6th amongst Fs on his team in xGF%. Yup... gets lots of points and very talented. But not even close to Barkov as far as defensive play goes.

 

[Pens x]

If you consider his personality, he’s pretty far down on the list of centers in the league.

He’s a top 10 center in the league if you don’t care about him being a chooch.

 

[2 others]

These are very good numbers, no doubt.

However, they are 1) a bit misleading and 2) skirting around the other issues people have brought up, since not a single person said Eichel wasn't an extremely gifted offensive player.

1) Yes he outscored the next highest teammates on his team. However (and you are picking 1 single year to do this for, for some reason) they weren't the "worst" offensive team in the league. They were the 6th worst. Eichel was on a team that scored more goals than Barzal's NYI. ES ppg Eichel was .74 and Barzal was .71. Now let's do this year: Eichel's BUF is STILL outscoring Barzal's NYI. Eichel ES PPG- .43, Barzal- .67 That said: Eichel is a better offensive player than Barzal. When healthy he most likely will put up more pts than Barzal (especially since Barzal is playing on a team with far tighter defensive systems that require more D commitment... I mean if you are going to throw Eichel's poor coaching in as an excuse, then you also have to include that while Trotz is a great coach, his numbers will absolutely deflate pure scoring).

2) Speaking of Defense- The knock on Eichel isn't that he's not a great point producer. He is. The question, and it's been there since before BU (I live in the Merrimack Valley and have heard about Eichel since he was pretty young) is whether he's a "winning" player. Now I tend to poo poo those kinds of criticisms because a lot of it is totally team dependent... but Eichel does have an "attitude" or "ego" that does affect how he plays. He plays "Hard" but he doesn't play disciplined or smart and that shows up in the defensive numbers.

Looking at last season, since you want to cherry pick that one.... and since you are very hung up with comparing Eichel's numbers with the Fs on his own team.. here are the F's on BUF last year who had a lower Goals Aganist/60 than Eichel:

Michael Frolik
Jimmy Vesey
Johann Larson
Kyle Okposo
Zemgus Girgensons
Vlad Sobotka
Victor Olofsson
Casey Mittelstadt

Eichel was deadsmack in the middle... meaning on a really bad team, he was mediocre in stopping goals. Of course, that's even worse when you consider that he's facing other team's best defensive players, trying to stop him from scoring, while opposing teams are saving their scoring lines for BUF's weak (as you admit) rest of the roster.

And with all his outscoring his teammates....by far as you know... he was 6th amongst Fs on his team in xGF%. Yup... gets lots of points and very talented. But not even close to Barkov as far as defensive play goes.

Frolik, where is he? Did he quit?
Vesey got waived in Toronto, he was that bad
Mittelstadt was even worse, he got sent down to Rochester that season.
Thing is, they didn't really play all that much.

Sobotka, did he really play last season? Wasn't he hurt at the beginning of last season?
Oh, and Olofsson has terrible 5v5 stats

The only two guys on your list i would give credit for being better defensively than Eichel are Larsson and Girgensons.

You should check your facts before posting. But kudos for really giving a try dragging Eichel through the mud, maybe one day your post will be liked by 25 others

 

[nickdawg95]

Can someone explain to me how eichel is a douche / whiner ?

is it Because he speaks out about the mismanagement of the buffalo sabres?? The owners wife ( who know nothing about hockey ) is the pres of hockey ops. eichel is playing in a circus show and management won't right the ship or put in someone to allow them to right the ship.

Told Lanfantaine what to do ( He quit as President 3 months in )
Told Tim murray what to do ( He flat out didn't listen and they fired him)
Told Botterill what to do ( He did what they asked and traded ror before his 7 million $ bonus was paid out / then did nothing to fill any need of the team for his time here)

Guy has 20-30 more points than the next player on the team. plays through injuries to try and give this city playoff hockey. leaves it all on the ice every night and still... he's a baby.... got'cha. 99.9% of you wouldn't go in to work if you had sore throat, this guy is going to work with a herniated disc in his neck. whatta drama queen. lmfao

 

[Dr Quincy]

Frolik, where is he? Did he quit?
Vesey got waived in Toronto, he was that bad
Mittelstadt was even worse, he got sent down to Rochester that season.
Thing is, they didn't really play all that much.

Sobotka, did he really play last season? Wasn't he hurt at the beginning of last season?
Oh, and Olofsson has terrible 5v5 stats

The only two guys on your list i would give credit for being better defensively than Eichel are Larsson and Girgensons.

You should check your facts before posting. But kudos for really giving a try dragging Eichel through the mud, maybe one day your post will be liked by 25 others

Um you seem to a) miss the point and b) not understand what the word facts means

Whatever happened to the players before, during or after the 19-20 season is irrelevant. A poster was using his teammates offensive numbers to show that Eichel was great. If you can use Frolik or Sobotka's lack of scoring to show that Eichel is great, you should be able to also compare them defensively.

Now, whether GA/60 is a great measure of defense or not is a debate we can have. But at the end of the day if we are using counting stats like "points" to measure how good he is offensively then we should also be able to use his opponents' points against him. We don't have to use the per 60.... but then he'd look even worse since he plays more minutes than the Froliks and Sobotkas so his pure goals against would be higher. I was trying to give more context by using "per 60" which would actually help his case.

 

[2 others]

Um you seem to a) miss the point and b) not understand what the word facts means

Whatever happened to the players before, during or after the 19-20 season is irrelevant. A poster was using his teammates offensive numbers to show that Eichel was great. If you can use Frolik or Sobotka's lack of scoring to show that Eichel is great, you should be able to also compare them defensively.

Now, whether GA/60 is a great measure of defense or not is a debate we can have. But at the end of the day if we are using counting stats like "points" to measure how good he is offensively then we should also be able to use his opponents' points against him. We don't have to use the per 60.... but then he'd look even worse since he plays more minutes than the Froliks and Sobotkas so his pure goals against would be higher. I was trying to give more context by using "per 60" which would actually help his case.

Frolik was traded late in the season, he did play a couple games for the Sabres
Same for Sobotka, same for Mittelstadt.
What the f*** are you talking about? You are as credible as a piece of toast.

 

[Voight]

A lot of recency bias here

Guys like Aho, Barzal, Point, Schiefele etc are elite but they are not better than a healthy Jack Eichel

I would say Eichel is definitely top 10 and in the 7-8 range

I mean they have all had scored more than his career high of 82 points and they all played better than him this year.

If anything its closer than you think.

 

[Morbo]

Ranking are always arbitrary but Eichel is top 10 at his position and I'm sure will resume that level with his new team.

 

[Oilslick941611]

Its really tough to answer because Eichel has not lived up to his draft hype. He can't carry a team and hasn't been a leader of a major stat column like pretty much everyone else mentioned in this thread. So its hard to judge him because you have give him the "buffalo benefit" of the doubt when comparing him, because quite frankly hes done nothing in the league. Ask this question again after a few years when hes on a new team. but now, I'd take pretty much every other 1C on other teams over him and some teams 2C (like Draisaitl) He hasn't shown anything in the league yet, especially compared to his draft hype and people saying him and McDavid were neck and neck

 

[Oilslick941611]

Healthy Eichel on a not terrible team would only safely be behind McDavid, Drai, and Mack. I'd also rank Matthews and Barkov ahead of him, but the gap isn't big.

We don't know that though. Could easily be just as bad as on Buffalo. He could be another Hall. The losing mentality can ruin people.

 

[GeeoffBrown]

This is tough because I think Eichel is better than his point totals suggest, due to his lack of supporting cast.

 

[Ryuji Yamazaki]

McDavid, Matthews, Barkov, Draisaitl, Mackinnon.

Hard to disregard age here, but as far as overall performance Crosby, Kopitar, O'Reilly, Aho.

Thats about it for me

That's my top 5 C's as well.