Name the centres better than Eichel today

[Panda Bear]

For the playoffs, or next season, I'd take these guys before Eichel:

1. McDavid
2. MacKinnon
3. Barkov
4. Draisaitl
5. Aho
6. Scheifele
7. Stamkos
8. Barzal
9. Malkin
10. Zibanejad
11. Point
12. O'Reilly
13. Bergeron
14. Miller
15. Kopitar
16. Bäckström
17. Seguin
18. Kuznetsov
19. Krejci
20. Couturier
21. Horvat
22. Suzuki

I have absolutely zero confidence in Eichel's ability to play winning hockey. Being an all-around-problem just oooozes from everything he does.

I think it's safe to say that Eichel's all-around problem is the Buffalo Sabres franchise owned by the Pegula family. It's a good thing to be competitive and not numb to losing.

Placing Suzuki above Eichel is one of the stupider things I've read this past month.

 

[Stephen]

No doubt they are on the same tier and arguments can be made for them being better but you have to consider the situations they are placed in considering their teams.

Can you imagine Eichel if he were playing in Aho's or Pointers spots? can you for certain say that Eichel would not match or beat their production?

I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that Eichel didn't land in the most ideal environment in Buffalo to start his career, but I also don't think that excludes the possibility that Buffalo likely didn't get the most suitable guy to build a program around in Eichel either if his temperament under adversity can give us any clues.

Point parachuted onto an instant contenders, but he grabbed the reigns so it's strength on strength.

Aho was a darkhorse prospect who kind of grew into the kind of player for rebuilding Carolina what Buffalo envisioned for themselves, so he deserves a lot of recognition.

 

[Panda Bear]

If you had a franchise center matrix and went through the various categories, Jack Eichel could conceivably come out much lower than you'd first expect.

In terms of individual peak numbers, a career high of 36 goals and 82 points and a 0.95 PPG average is not particularly impressive even if you factor in a Buffalo Sabres coefficient, whatever it would be. Puts you in a Mark Scheifele territory.

In terms of being a big game player, he's never really been in a position to have to deliver in a big moment, so he's untested in that category.

In terms of the "intangibles" category where you might compare him to older franchise centers who have more evolved defensive details, emergent leadership qualities etc, he's never even taken the Sabres to a middle of the pack level with his scoring, so we've never seen him have to demonstrate the other stuff to gain an edge.

In terms of elevating teammates, which could be an "intangible" quality, not a lot of guys have thrived playing with Eichel. Maybe Jeff Skinner when he had his one 40 goal year in Buffalo, but you can look at a number of high picks and a handful of bigger ticket acquisitions and it's not that good.

(1) I don't see how including his D+1 and D+2 numbers have any bearing on what he'll be doing this upcoming season. Using his career average of 0.95 PPG average is disingenuous in projecting him going forward. The only shots at justifying that number are (1) he'll be coming off of an injury, and (2) he quits on playing for Buffalo if he's stuck there come next season.

(2) One player can't take a team to the middle of the pack. It cannot be done. The Oilers missed the playoffs in '18-19 with McDavid putting up 116P in 78 games and Draisaitl putting up 105 points in 82 games.

(3) You can only elevate teammates so much. Kassian was stapled to McDavid in '19-20 and still only put up 34 points in 59 games (0.57 PPG) after putting up 26 points in 79 games (0.33 PPG) the season prior. Further to this, you need good coaching to elevate the entire team. Buffalo has had tirefire coaching for Eichel's entire tenure.

 

[Panda Bear]

I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that Eichel didn't land in the most ideal environment in Buffalo to start his career, but I also don't think that excludes the possibility that Buffalo likely didn't get the most suitable guy to build a program around in Eichel either if his temperament under adversity can give us any clues.

Point parachuted onto an instant contenders, but he grabbed the reigns so it's strength on strength.

Aho was a darkhorse prospect who kind of grew into the kind of player for rebuilding Carolina what Buffalo envisioned for themselves, so he deserves a lot of recognition.

(1) Even McDavid, who is lauded for being the consummate professional, had to be persuaded by Holland to stay patient in Edmonton. There were a lot of rumblings that he was furious with the organization's lack of success in 18-19.

Chiarelli's Edmonton tenure is still better than any recent Buffalo tenure in assembling a functional squad.

(2) Carolina is a much better run organization than Buffalo. Before their success over the past couple seasons, they were advanced stats darlings. While they weren't scoring and winning as much as those advanced stats said they should have been, they were playing good hockey under Peters. When they moved on from Peters, they brought in Brind'amour who has proved to be an even better fit. People's complaints about Carolina were that they didn't have enough natural goalscorers and they had questionable goaltending, but that they had good forward depth and a great defensive core.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

I would be building a winning team, not a losing one

If my team was trying to tank, then he'd be on my list, right after Eichel and Dahlin

So Crosby would be on a losing team when he has made the playoffs in every year except his rookie season?

Do you hear how dumb that sounds?

 

[Stephen]

(1) I don't see how including his D+1 and D+2 numbers have any bearing on what he'll be doing this upcoming season. Using his career average of 0.95 PPG average is disingenuous in projecting him going forward. The only shots at justifying that number are (1) he'll be coming off of an injury, and (2) he quits on playing for Buffalo if he's stuck there come next season.

(2) One player can't take a team to the middle of the pack. It cannot be done. The Oilers missed the playoffs in '18-19 with McDavid putting up 116P in 78 games and Draisaitl putting up 105 points in 82 games.

(3) You can only elevate teammates so much. Kassian was stapled to McDavid in '19-20 and still only put up 34 points in 59 games (0.57 PPG) after putting up 26 points in 79 games (0.33 PPG) the season prior. Further to this, you need good coaching to elevate the entire team. Buffalo has had tirefire coaching for Eichel's entire tenure.

Feel free to cherry pick any Eichel statistic you want and then line it up with Aho, Barzal, Point have managed to put up at the same time. And then check the numbers again vs Matthews, Barkov, Mackinnon, Draisaitl, McDavid, and then expand it to players beyond his immediate draft classes.

At the end of the day, you can only use the Buffalo crutch for so long. Yes, it’s not the ideal environment but what has Eichel contributed to a winning, healthy culture as team captain and franchise cornerstone? The two things cancel each other out.

 

[Zach716]

Tfw this thread was started by a gm trying to trade for Eichel and trash him for better value. Some of the takes here are just comical

 

[Panda Bear]

Feel free to cherry pick any Eichel statistic you want and then line it up with Aho, Barzal, Point have managed to put up at the same time. And then check the numbers again vs Matthews, Barkov, Mackinnon, Draisaitl, McDavid, and then expand it to players beyond his immediate draft classes.

At the end of the day, you can only use the Buffalo crutch for so long. Yes, it’s not the ideal environment but what has Eichel contributed to a winning, healthy culture as team captain and franchise cornerstone? The two things cancel each other out.

Sure. Let's do 2019-20, Eichel's most recent healthy season.

In 2019-20, Jack Eichel put up 78 points in 68 games for a rate of 1.15 PPG. His nearest teammate was Sam Reinhart who put up 50 points in 69 games. The second best clip on the team was Viktor Olofsson with 42 points in 54 games for a clip of 0.78 PPG. Jack Eichel scored 56% more than his nearest teammate in raw totals, and he scored at a 48% higher clip than Olofsson.

Let's look at by how much the players you mentioned outproduced their teammates.

• Aho scored 68 in 68, Teravainen 66 in 68, Svechnikov 61 in 68.
  • 2 points! 3% more PPG!
• Barzal scored 60 in 68, Nelson 54 in 68.
  • 6 points! 11% more PPG!
• Matthews scored 80 in 70, Marner 67 in 59, Tavares 60 in 63, Nylander 59 in 68.
  • 13! 1% more PPG!
• Draisaitl scored 110 in 71, McDavid 97 in 64, RNH 61 in 65.
  • 13 points! 2% more PPG!
• Point scored 64 in 66, Killorn scored 49 in 68, Hedman scored 55 in 66, Stamkos scored 66 in 57, Kucherov scored 85 in 68.
  • -21 points! Won't even bother!
• Barkov 62 in 69, Huberdeau 78 in 69, Hoffman 59 in 69.
  • -16 points! 26% less PPG!
• Eichel scored 78 in 68, Reinhart 50 in 69, and Olofsson 42 in 54. 28!
  • 28 points! 48% more PPG!

Am I going to have to do some more math, maybe draw in some advanced statistics, or is it clear to see that Buffalo won't be going anywhere since there aren't enough people on that roster near Eichel's level? Wax lyrical about scoring depth, the importance of a good defensive core and goaltending? The impact of coaching not only on evens, but PP and PK?

P.S. McDavid and Draisaitl both passed 100 points in 18-19. Their team picked #8 overall that year after having picked #10 overall the year previous. Lots of talk about an unhappy, dysfunctional locker room. I guess McDavid stopped contributing to a healthy, winning environment after the 2017 playoffs before checking his attitude for 19-20.

 

[bobholly39]

It's hard to say.

It's like if you asked to rank Laine among goal-scorers. He'd rank pretty low bc he sucks lately...but would anyone be shocked if he scored 50 next year?
Eichel hasn't dipped as much as Laine - but still, lots of great players. He's probably in that top ~15-20 range, but can easily climb closer to top 5 with a bounce back year.

 

[Beukeboom]

Sure. Let's do 2019-20, Eichel's most recent healthy season.

In 2019-20, Jack Eichel put up 78 points in 68 games for a rate of 1.15 PPG. His nearest teammate was Sam Reinhart who put up 50 points in 69 games. The second best clip on the team was Viktor Olofsson with 42 points in 54 games for a clip of 0.78 PPG. Jack Eichel scored 56% more than his nearest teammate in raw totals, and he scored at a 48% higher clip than Olofsson.

Let's look at by how much the players you mentioned outproduced their teammates.

• Aho scored 68 in 68, Teravainen 66 in 68, Svechnikov 61 in 68.
  • 2 points! 3% more PPG!
• Barzal scored 60 in 68, Nelson 54 in 68.
  • 6 points! 11% more PPG!
• Matthews scored 80 in 70, Marner 67 in 59, Tavares 60 in 63, Nylander 59 in 68.
  • 13! 1% more PPG!
• Draisaitl scored 110 in 71, McDavid 97 in 64, RNH 61 in 65.
  • 13 points! 2% more PPG!
• Point scored 64 in 66, Killorn scored 49 in 68, Hedman scored 55 in 66, Stamkos scored 66 in 57, Kucherov scored 85 in 68.
  • -21 points! Won't even bother!
• Barkov 62 in 69, Huberdeau 78 in 69, Hoffman 59 in 69.
  • -16 points! 26% less PPG!
• Eichel scored 78 in 68, Reinhart 50 in 69, and Olofsson 42 in 54. 28!
  • 28 points! 48% more PPG!

Am I going to have to do some more math, maybe draw in some advanced statistics, or is it clear to see that Buffalo won't be going anywhere since there aren't enough people on that roster near Eichel's level? Wax lyrical about scoring depth, the importance of a good defensive core and goaltending? The impact of coaching not only on evens, but PP and PK?

P.S. McDavid and Draisaitl both passed 100 points in 18-19. Their team picked #8 overall that year after having picked #10 overall the year previous. Lots of talk about an unhappy, dysfunctional locker room. I guess McDavid stopped contributing to a healthy, winning environment after the 2017 playoffs before checking his attitude for 19-20.

Nice to see someone using logic rather than hot takes. Eichel was a beast last season when injury free, but people forget anything not happening in this very moment.

Which other player of his caliber has spent six of his best years in a team that pretty much ends up last every season? Eichel has never been close to playing a single playoff game. He has every right to be dissatisfied and a captain that isn't putting pressure on his team's management is not doing his job.

 

[Panda Bear]

Dug around further.

Here are the comparables for Eichel from 19-20 in terms of raw point differences and PPG rates:
Patrick Kane (out of playoffs save for NHL going to 24 teams), Anze Kopitar (out of playoffs), Nathan MacKinnon (Rantanen chronic injury, and by god was their scoring depth great even if Makar was the only other player to hit 50 points).

 

[Panda Bear]

Nice to see someone using logic rather than hot takes. Eichel was a beast last season when injury free, but people forget anything not happening in this very moment.

Which other player of his caliber has spent six of his best years in a team that pretty much ends up last every season? Eichel has never been close to playing a single playoff game. Eichel has never been close to playing a playoff game. He has every right to be dissatisfied and a captain that isn't putting pressure on his team's management is not doing his job.

In the past couple decades, the answer is no other player...unless you consider Hall to be at his level, which he isn't.

 

[Muikea Bulju]

I think it's safe to say that Eichel's all-around problem is the Buffalo Sabres franchise owned by the Pegula family. It's a good thing to be competitive and not numb to losing.

Placing Suzuki above Eichel is one of the stupider things I've read this past month.

Eichel has been a problem before, and now he even has the neck injury. I wouldn't bet on Eichel having even more points than Suzuki next season, not even mentioning the all-around play

 

[Muikea Bulju]

So Crosby would be on a losing team when he has made the playoffs in every year except his rookie season?

Do you hear how dumb that sounds?

My teams goal would not be making the playoffs, but winning it all. He doesn't have enough of a burning desire to win left, his tummy is full

 

[Toronto makebeleifs]

Mcdavid, Mackinnion, Matthews, Barkov, Crosby, and debateable O'Rielly are better centers than Eichel currently. Honorable mention to Bergeron and Point.

 

[The90]

I would be building a winning team, not a losing one

If my team was trying to tank, then he'd be on my list, right after Eichel and Dahlin

Interesting how that’s the standard for Buffalo but not Edmonton.

 

[shello]

I don't even like Eichel but he's better than some of the guys listed. Buffalo is a soul sucker

 

[Regal]

Assuming he returns to play similar to last year, if I'm building a team to win now I'd take McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl, Matthews, Crosby, and probably Barkov due to the season he just had, though I would have had Eichel ahead going into he year. Malkin on his game too, but I don't think you can bank of that this point. Eichel's really good, and I think he could look even better outside of Buffalo. O'Reilly's 5v5 scoring was 3rd liner level in that mess and back to a 1st liner in St.Louis.

 

[traffic cone]

Sure. Let's do 2019-20, Eichel's most recent healthy season.

In 2019-20, Jack Eichel put up 78 points in 68 games for a rate of 1.15 PPG. His nearest teammate was Sam Reinhart who put up 50 points in 69 games. The second best clip on the team was Viktor Olofsson with 42 points in 54 games for a clip of 0.78 PPG. Jack Eichel scored 56% more than his nearest teammate in raw totals, and he scored at a 48% higher clip than Olofsson.

Let's look at by how much the players you mentioned outproduced their teammates.

• Aho scored 68 in 68, Teravainen 66 in 68, Svechnikov 61 in 68.
  • 2 points! 3% more PPG!
• Barzal scored 60 in 68, Nelson 54 in 68.
  • 6 points! 11% more PPG!
• Matthews scored 80 in 70, Marner 67 in 59, Tavares 60 in 63, Nylander 59 in 68.
  • 13! 1% more PPG!
• Draisaitl scored 110 in 71, McDavid 97 in 64, RNH 61 in 65.
  • 13 points! 2% more PPG!
• Point scored 64 in 66, Killorn scored 49 in 68, Hedman scored 55 in 66, Stamkos scored 66 in 57, Kucherov scored 85 in 68.
  • -21 points! Won't even bother!
• Barkov 62 in 69, Huberdeau 78 in 69, Hoffman 59 in 69.
  • -16 points! 26% less PPG!
• Eichel scored 78 in 68, Reinhart 50 in 69, and Olofsson 42 in 54. 28!
  • 28 points! 48% more PPG!

Am I going to have to do some more math, maybe draw in some advanced statistics, or is it clear to see that Buffalo won't be going anywhere since there aren't enough people on that roster near Eichel's level? Wax lyrical about scoring depth, the importance of a good defensive core and goaltending? The impact of coaching not only on evens, but PP and PK?

P.S. McDavid and Draisaitl both passed 100 points in 18-19. Their team picked #8 overall that year after having picked #10 overall the year previous. Lots of talk about an unhappy, dysfunctional locker room. I guess McDavid stopped contributing to a healthy, winning environment after the 2017 playoffs before checking his attitude for 19-20.

So in a nutshell, Eichel doesn’t make the players around him better.

That’s gonna be a minus from me dawg.

 

[McShogun99]

He’s a top 10 center but easily one of the worst GM’s in the league.

 

[Panda Bear]

So in a nutshell, Eichel doesn’t make the players around him better.

That’s gonna be a minus from me dawg.

If that's what you're taking away from it, then you must not be a fan of how MacKinnon performed last year.

MacKinnon 93 points, next closest Makar with 50.

 

[Panda Bear]

Interesting how that’s the standard for Buffalo but not Edmonton.

Edmonton is in the playoffs for the second year in a row under a competent GM and a competent coach. Apples to oranges.

 

[Cricket Green]

For those that have Eichel ahead of Barkov: why?

Anyone? Please?

 

[Phillybean]

Give me McDavid, Crosby, Matthews, Draisaitl and MacKinnon over him. THATS IT

This is the right answer.

 

[Mr Positive]

Absolutely top tier. As an Oiler fan I'd put him above Draisaitl, perhaps equal of MacKinnon and Matthews?

And definitely above Schiefele, Barkov, O'Reilly, Malkin, Stamkos (as they are today)

Perhaps a comp is a young Stamkos?