Myers or Hutton, This Year

[MS]

What you describe is neither good nor bad driving. It is possible that it took some real skill to pull it off. One might have gotten lucky not to get caught and it could very well be reckless but makes no indication whether or not the driver was a good driver or a bad one. One might argue that the skills needed to do that better indicates that the driver is good. I understand what you are getting at though. It is somewhat a case of semantics. How does one chose to use good or bad. If by virtue of breaking driving laws it could be seen as bad. As an indication to the skill of the driver it says very little.

Better put would be to say that you are playing blackjack and have a 18. Instead of holding you take another card. That would be a bad blackjack player who took a chance that had great odds to fail. Even if his extra card is a 3 and he wins big. It was still a bad call.

Arguing over analogies is pointless. Both work.

As for the trade itself. I am not, nor was I ever, happy with giving away the first. But it is done and all the bellyaching will achieve nothing in regards to the trade itself.

Uh, this is a discussion board where we discuss the quality of moves that were just made. It isn't 'bellyaching' to say this was a dumb, reckless move. In your world, we should just ignore all the bad things management has done and join hands and sing Kumbaya while circling around a statue of Jim Benning?

In my analogy Benning had a 15 and chose to call. His odds to bust are still high but sometimes it is a call you have to make. Benning's stake in the game is his job. Now we just have to wait for our call card to see if the trade is ultimately the right or wrong choice.

Leaving a bad GM in a position where he's desperate to make bad moves to save his job, and putting saving his job over the best interests of the franchise, is an absolutely horrible situation.

 

[Ace of Hades]

I really don't understand how you're not grasping the irony of what you're saying.

You're talking about how "great" Hutton looked once Gudbranson left, but you're unwilling to considering how much better Gudbranson looked once he left.

Hutton wasn't making anybody else better either. He dragged Stecher's numbers down when they played together. And he somehow made Tanev look worse too...which we know is very hard to do.


You really can't dismiss how a guy like Gudbranson fared outside of Vancouver, if you're insistent on including how Myers fared in Winnipeg, behind two big minute RHD in Trouba and Byfuglien. Context is for kings.

Do you honestly believe there's a point in Hutton's career, at which he's going to surpass Myers at his own peak? Or even come close?

It is you who is graspng at straws and cant form an actual argument.

Like I said, it doesnt matter how Gudbranson looked because we go by the large chunks of proof in the games he played when he was a Canuck. Gudbranson sucked with every partner he played with. The fact that you believe Hutton dragged down Stecher is showing how keen you are in making a fool of yourself.

Besides what do you find Myers to be so much better than Hutton in? Because hes 6'8? You have shown poor evaluation of both myers and Hutton and even Guds prowess as players.

and as a Pen, Guds was merely meh.

 

[DL44]

Hutton gets a little extra applause for this past season because of how it looked relative to his dreadful 17-18 campaign.

Has little to offer offensively.
He did have that nice run on the fist unit PP swinging to Pettersson and Brock for a few games. That got people pumped up as well.

 

[Ace of Hades]

It's fascinating.

Hutton - when not with Gudbranson - played top-4 minutes in the NHL very solidly last year.

Winnipeg fans pretty much all agree that Myers is a 4/5 guy whose mobility and defensive issues get exposed when he gets moved higher up in the lineup.

This seems pretty similar. Maybe Myers is a bit better (and yes, you do have to factor in his PP utility), but there is pretty clearly not a huge gap between these players. But a huge percentage of this board are trying to argue that it isn't even close, which is ridiculous.

Remember how we all laughed when Pittsburgh fans tried to tell us that we were wrong about Gudbranson and that he was actually really solid? Everyone here is doing that exact same thing to Winnipeg fans right now.

___________

One thing I'm really starting to take out of these discussions is that I really question how many people here actually watch the games - either ours or those of other teams - with any real regularity.

Exactly. Its just so amusing to see how desperate these Benning mouth breathers are to defend any decision Benning made.

The reality of how Myers will fare as a Canuck will be clear on these people. Tho im sure their perception will still not change.

 

[MS]

Exactly. Its just so amusing to see how desperate these Benning mouth breathers are to defend any decision Benning made.

The reality of how Myers will fare as a Canuck will be clear on these people. Tho im sure their perception will still not change.

To be fair, while some of the Benning Bots here are exactly what you say, there are a lot of neutral-ish people who are bullish on this move. And it's a psychology we always see when a 'familiar name' acquired and people get irrationally excited about it, even if the player has, for an extended period of time, been performing at nowhere near the level they think. I can remember this exact thing going back to the Felix Potvin trade, which the neutrals/casuals were over the moon about because FELIX THE CAT IS AWESOME and had built up a 'star' profile years before - even though he'd been one of the worst goalies in the league for the previous 4-5 years. Same thing with Eriksson. Same thing with Gudbranson. Same thing with Ryan Miller.

If we acquired Jamie Benn tomorrow, even though he's a quickly declining asset on one of the worst contracts in the NHL who should have negative value at this point, people would be losing their minds in excitement and planning the parade. And it's the same thing with Myers - a household name who is 6'8! and won a calder trophy! and 40 points! big signing!

The Bots will defend this indefinitely. For most of the others, I expect a big turn of opinion once we try playing Myers in heavy minutes against Gaudreaus and McDavids and his lack of skating ability gets shredded.

 

[Krnuckfan]

Was Ben Hutton really good without Gudbransson this year?


BEN HUTTON (VAN) - 5v5

WITH ERIK GUDBRANSON
TOI	SAT For	SAT Against	SAT Diff	SAT %	SOG For	SOG Against	SOG Diff	SOG %	Goals For	Goals Against	+/-	GF %	OZ FO	NZ FO	DZ FO	OZ%
553:53	463	616	-153	42.91	255	340	-85	42.86	17	38	-21	30.91	189	178	199	48.71

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

WITHOUT ERIK GUDBRANSON
TOI	SAT For	SAT Against	SAT Diff	SAT %	SOG For	SOG Against	SOG Diff	SOG %	Goals For	Goals Against	+/-	GF %	OZ FO	NZ FO	DZ FO	OZ%
659:48	622	675	-53	47.96	323	386	-63	45.56	22	22	0	50	184	191	193	48.81

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Total
TOI	SAT For	SAT Against	SAT Diff	SAT %	SOG For	SOG Against	SOG Diff	SOG %	Goals For	Goals Against	+/-	GF %	OZ FO	NZ FO	DZ FO	OZ%
1213:41	1085	1291	-206	45.66	578	726	-148	44.33	39	60	-21	39.39	373	369	392	48.76

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Hardly a difference in shot attempts, shots on goal, but a big impact on GF%.

The thing is Gudbransson's stats also improved without Hutton.

ERIK GUDBRANSON (VAN) - 5v5

WITH BEN HUTTON
TOI	SAT For	SAT Against	SAT Diff	SAT %	SOG For	SOG Against	SOG Diff	SOG %	Goals For	Goals Against	+/-	GF %	OZ FO	NZ FO	DZ FO	OZ%
553:53	463	616	-153	42.91	255	340	-85	42.86	17	38	-21	30.91	189	178	199	48.71

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

WITHOUT BEN HUTTON
TOI	SAT For	SAT Against	SAT Diff	SAT %	SOG For	SOG Against	SOG Diff	SOG %	Goals For	Goals Against	+/-	GF %	OZ FO	NZ FO	DZ FO	OZ%
324:02	273	342	-69	44.39	156	198	-42	44.07	14	21	-7	40	77	94	103	42.78

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Total
TOI	SAT For	SAT Against	SAT Diff	SAT %	SOG For	SOG Against	SOG Diff	SOG %	Goals For	Goals Against	+/-	GF %	OZ FO	NZ FO	DZ FO	OZ%
877:55	736	958	-222	43.45	411	538	-127	43.31	31	59	-28	34.44	266	272	302	46.83

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Maybe they both just sucked?

 

[Jay Cee]

Hutton gets a little extra applause for this past season because of how it looked relative to his dreadful 17-18 campaign.

Has little to offer offensively.
He did have that nice run on the fist unit PP swinging to Pettersson and Brock for a few games. That got people pumped up as well.

Even as poor as our management team has been at constructing their roster, this is one thing I am not that worried about. It's not like we were unfair to Hutton. He played poorly and had 9 lives. He even played in our top 4 for a prolonged period. We saw what was there and rightly moved on. It was terrible asset management, but I don't feel there is much of an issue Myers is a better hockey player. Especially when (as I have shown) the Corsi comparisons of his d partners were all in Gudbranson territory.

 

[Shareefruck]

Not most games no. I live in China and so most of the games that I watch are the condensed versions on You tube.

Wait..... what?

Why on earth would anyone vehemently argue for or against the quality of play of any player if this was the limited level of exposure they have to them? Let alone on the basis of the eye test while rolling their eyes at the underlying numbers, and let alone consistently debating people on these points for years.

I'm actually in favor of making judgements based on the eye test (provided that one's understanding of the game is at a certain level-- in theory, they should be compatible with what the numbers suggest so long as you're looking at them in the right context-- The eye test is a developed skill, not a matter-of-fact self-evident observation). However, condensed Youtube videos do not give viewers a comprehensive understanding of how effective different individual players are. At best you can only guess at things based on what superficially jumps out at you.

 

[Shareefruck]

On the subject of the thread, I would probably take Hutton over Myers as well, not because I think Hutton is particularly good (although there are at least promising stretches when he isn't anchored down by a crappy linemate), but because I think Myers is pretty mediocre and infuriating to watch. It's not anything to do with Benning this or Gillis that. I (and I suspect many others who feel the same way about the comparison) would likely take someone pretty forgettable like Benn over Myers as well for the same reason.

 

[MS]

On the subject of the thread, I would probably take Hutton over Myers as well, not because I think Hutton is particularly good (although there are at least promising stretches when he isn't anchored down by a crappy linemate), but because I think Myers is pretty mediocre and infuriating to watch. It's not anything to do with Benning this or Gillis that. I (and I suspect many others who feel the same way about the comparison) would likely take someone pretty forgettable like Benn over Myers as well for the same reason.

This is one of the things I find so frustrating about this. Like, we've been talking about this for months, and there were 4 guys on this UFA market who were huge red flags that I and many others here wanted to stay the hell away from :

1) Tyler Myers, a guy whose size and decade-old Calder gave him a profile far larger than the slow, defensively vulnerable depth defender he now actually is.
2) Michael Ferland, a 3rd line grinder with hugely inflated stats from playing on two of the best lines in the NHL (and dragging them down) for the past two years.
3) Wayne Simmonds, this year's James Neal whose motor has completely broken and who is a total liability at ES.
4) Marcus Johansson, a slow injury-prone defensive liability who is only useful on the PP.

And also Bobrovsky, but he was obviously not coming here.

And then we sign one of these guys, and hear nothing but the whole 'YOU ONLY HATE IT BECAUSE BENNING' rubbish when we're saying literally exactly the same things we were saying months ago.

And yes, I think Benn and Myers are actually quite comparable in terms of impact at this point.

 

[4Twenty]

Even as poor as our management team has been at constructing their roster, this is one thing I am not that worried about. It's not like we were unfair to Hutton. He played poorly and had 9 lives. He even played in our top 4 for a prolonged period. We saw what was there and rightly moved on. It was terrible asset management, but I don't feel there is much of an issue Myers is a better hockey player. Especially when (as I have shown) the Corsi comparisons of his d partners were all in Gudbranson territory.

I would argue he was treated unfairly in 2017/18. He was looking good averaging 22 minutes until the end of November, something happened, and then he got dog housed by Green and basically drove any potential value he could've had into the toilet.

 

[4Twenty]

@Krnuckfan WHat website spits out those tables? I ask but your Without stats don't lineup at all with Naturalstattrick.com. They have Hutton's GF% at 60.71 w/o Guddy, you've got it even. It also shows his CF% without Guddy at over 51%.

Also worth mentioning that Hutton without Gudbranson, was playing 1st pair shutdown minutes with Stecher, and Guddy in Pittsburgh was playing soft minutes.

 

[Melvin]

@Krnuckfan WHat website spits out those tables? I ask but your Without stats don't lineup at all with Naturalstattrick.com. They have Hutton's GF% at 60.71 w/o Guddy, you've got it even. It also shows his CF% without Guddy at over 51%.

Also worth mentioning that Hutton without Gudbranson, was playing 1st pair shutdown minutes with Stecher, and Guddy in Pittsburgh was playing soft minutes.

I think he's using the site I built, nhltools.com.

I just checked natural stat trick and they have only negligible differences. Are you sure you're looking at the same thing?

From what I can see they have 30.91 GF% with and 48.84 without.

I am not seeing where you are getting 60 from.

For Hutton Wo Gudbranson they have 21 goals for and 22 against. I have 22 and 22 so there is an extra goal I am counting (rightly or wrongly.)

This stuff is really hard to do lmao.

 

[Lemmiwinks]

It's Myers obviously, but this whole poll seems like a strawman. I'm a fan of Hutton and his potential and don't really see why folks have soured on him.

I would have rather resigned Hutton @ 4M than the Myers contract, provided it was on a short term.

 

[strattonius]

How can someone honestly choose Hutton here? It feels like a cheap way to protest the Myers signing.

Its fair if you dont like the signing but these players aren't very comparable. Myers is a much better player on both sides of the ice.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Edit - never mind.

I don’t want to get TrollStomper on my case.

@CanuckLuck - you are 100% correct.

 

[Pip]

Myers is a much better player on both sides of the ice.

Why specifically do you feel like this is the case. Do you have any evidence to suggest that he is a better defensive player?

 

[4Twenty]

I think he's using the site I built, nhltools.com.

I just checked natural stat trick and they have only negligible differences. Are you sure you're looking at the same thing?

From what I can see they have 30.91 GF% with and 48.84 without.

I am not seeing where you are getting 60 from.

For Hutton Wo Gudbranson they have 21 goals for and 22 against. I have 22 and 22 so there is an extra goal I am counting (rightly or wrongly.)

This stuff is really hard to do lmao.

Ben Hutton - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

That's what I'm looking at.

 

[Melvin]

Ben Hutton - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

That's what I'm looking at.

That's weird. It doesn't line up with what they have here. Which matches what I have.

Seems to be a bug with their site.

 

[passive voice]

That's weird. It doesn't line up with what they have here. Which matches what I have.

Seems to be a bug with their site.

Suspect this has to do with Guddy getting traded. I think one includes "Hutton w/o Gudbranson but Gudbranson was here" and one is "Hutton w/o Gudbranson, whether Gudbranson was here or Pittsburgh"

 

[Melvin]

Suspect this has to do with Guddy getting traded. I think one includes "Hutton w/o Gudbranson but Gudbranson was here" and one is "Hutton w/o Gudbranson, whether Gudbranson was here or Pittsburgh"

Ah, that could be. It's possible Hutton had 60% GF without Gudbranson before the trade. After Gudbranson was traded away, Hutton was on the ice for just 1 goal for and 8 against. That would have wrecked his ratio.

That shows the fragility of such a metric, where a 10 point swing is caused by basically 3 games where Hutton surrendered two goals in each.

 

[PecaFan]

I think he's done some good and bad things.........much like Gillis.

I think he has major strengths and weaknesses..........much like Gillis.

I'm gobsmacked that you wrote that.

That's like a kid explaining to his mom that his failing test score is no big deal.

"A 90/100 score has some right answers, and some wrong answers.
My 20/100 score has some right answers, and some wrong answers.

I don't see why failing the test is any big deal mom, they're both the same thing!"

Gillis did 90% good things and 10% bad, while Benning is the total opposite. Hell, calling 10% of Benning's moves good is likely overstating it. A few good draft picks, compared to literally dozens of horrible trades, free agent signings, contracts, draft picks, asset mismanagement, etc.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Um... Myers.

 

[Horse McHindu]

I'm gobsmacked that you wrote that.

That's like a kid explaining to his mom that his failing test score is no big deal.

"A 90/100 score has some right answers, and some wrong answers.
My 20/100 score has some right answers, and some wrong answers.

I don't see why failing the test is any big deal mom, they're both the same thing!"

Gillis did 90% good things and 10% bad, while Benning is the total opposite. Hell, calling 10% of Benning's moves good is likely overstating it. A few good draft picks, compared to literally dozens of horrible trades, free agent signings, contracts, draft picks, asset mismanagement, etc.

Bah bah black sheep have you any wool?

Yes sir yes sir 3 bags full.

One for my daughter one for my dame.

One for the little boy who lives down the lane.

Bah bah black sheep have you any wool?

Yes sir yes sir 3 bags full.

 

[Melvin]

I'm gobsmacked that you wrote that.

That's like a kid explaining to his mom that his failing test score is no big deal.

"A 90/100 score has some right answers, and some wrong answers.
My 20/100 score has some right answers, and some wrong answers.

I don't see why failing the test is any big deal mom, they're both the same thing!"

Gillis did 90% good things and 10% bad, while Benning is the total opposite. Hell, calling 10% of Benning's moves good is likely overstating it. A few good draft picks, compared to literally dozens of horrible trades, free agent signings, contracts, draft picks, asset mismanagement, etc.

Last summer Imac wrote a column where in passing he mentioned Benning's "good moves" as baertschi, granlund and Pouliot. One season later and two of those guys weren't even given a QO. The other probably wouldn't have been either were he RFA.

It's hilarious. I'd link it if I weren't on my phone. Those are the "good moves" according to the biggest sycophant in the market.