Injury Report: Muzzin placed on LTIR -- Update Feb 22 2023: Out for the season + playoffs

[BertCorbeau]

Feel for Muzzin. Hopefully he can recover and not endure and long term issues.

A lot hinges on that specialist appointment in February but I wouldn’t be surprised to see him retire.

 

[Dekes For Days]

That sucks to hear, but at least it sounds like he's doing okay if he's travelling around with the team, and it's good for Toronto to get some certainty on what's happening with him this year.

 

[ULF_55]

Feel for Muzzin. Hopefully he can recover and not endure and long term issues.

A lot hinges on that specialist appointment in February but I wouldn’t be surprised to see him retire.

If insured perhaps he's traded to a bottom team wanting to stay at the floor?

Otherwise, it's LTIRetirement.

He won't be giving up the money, and maybe he sticks around the team?

 

[Martin Skoula]

Feel for Muzzin. Hopefully he can recover and not endure and long term issues.

A lot hinges on that specialist appointment in February but I wouldn’t be surprised to see him retire.

I’d imagine he waits until at least July 1 for his 2 mil bonus if he’s retiring.

If the specialist confirms that there’s no possible avenue for him to safely return to play, is he allowed to sit on LTIR? The closest case I can think of is Horton. Horton had to hold out on a disc fusion surgery as he’d no longer be able to play hockey no matter what which would make him ineligible to continue sitting on LTIR, guy had to suffer without the surgery for years just to get the remainder of his contract paid out.

 

[ACC1224]

Feel for Muzzin. Hopefully he can recover and not endure and long term issues.

A lot hinges on that specialist appointment in February but I wouldn’t be surprised to see him retire.

Can't imagine he retires until his contract runs out.

 

[ULF_55]

I’d imagine he waits until at least July 1 for his 2 mil bonus if he’s retiring.

No reason to retire though.

Being unable to play hockey doesn't mean he's unable to work, or be involved in team activities in a non-playing role.

 

[Martin Skoula]

No reason to retire though.

Being unable to play hockey doesn't mean he's unable to work, or be involved in team activities in a non-playing role.

Updated my post a bit late re: Horton’s case. I think there’s some grey area with concussion issues that don’t require career ending surgery but it depends what the specialist says. Players on LTIR need to have some non-zero chance of playing again no?

Pronger, Hossa, Clarkson, etc could all theoretically “get better” and continue playing, Horton could not theoretically get better enough to play safely if he got the disk fusion. If Muzzin’s specialist says taking an NHL hit would be a serious threat of disability or death he might be forced into actual retirement unless I’m misunderstanding the LTIR rules.

 

[Deebo]

I’d imagine he waits until at least July 1 for his 2 mil bonus if he’s retiring.

If the specialist confirms that there’s no possible avenue for him to safely return to play, is he allowed to sit on LTIR? The closest case I can think of is Horton. Horton had to hold out on a disc fusion surgery as he’d no longer be able to play hockey no matter what which would make him ineligible to continue sitting on LTIR, guy had to suffer without the surgery for years just to get the remainder of his contract paid out.

Hossa and Pronger are 2 more

 

[ULF_55]

Updated my post a bit late re: Horton’s case. I think there’s some grey area with concussion issues that don’t require career ending surgery but it depends what the specialist says. Players on LTIR need to have some non-zero chance of playing again no?

They'd just play it out. Or should I say, they'd just NOT play it out...
Pronger spent about 3-5 years on LTIR collecting his money.
There is always a possible miracle.
If this was regular LTD, most clauses I've read are, first 2 years on LTD "unable to do your job", and then it is "unable to do any job", but with the CBA it is probably covered until the end of his contract.

 

[PromisedLand]

feel for muzz but quite frankly he already has a cup with the kings; he should just rest up and avoid any serious injury and look towards the future spending time with his family and friends and living a quality life

also a hockey fan in me is wondering:.... how can we use muzzin's LTIR to our benefit at the TDL? here is hoping Pridham is working his ass off

They'd just play it out. Or should I say, they'd just NOT play it out...
Pronger spent about 3-5 years on LTIR collecting his money.
There is always a possible miracle.
If this was regular LTD, most clauses I've read are, first 2 years on LTD "unable to do your job", and then it is "unable to do any job", but with the CBA it is probably covered until the end of his contract.

I would assume that Muzzin's contract extension with the Leafs would have been insured

 

[Martin Skoula]

They'd just play it out. Or should I say, they'd just NOT play it out...
Pronger spent about 3-5 years on LTIR collecting his money.
There is always a possible miracle.
If this was regular LTD, most clauses I've read are, first 2 years on LTD "unable to do your job", and then it is "unable to do any job", but with the CBA it is probably covered until the end of his contract.

Pronger played another 6 games after the initial Grabovski concussion/eye injury before a very light hit from Hanzal took him out for good, I’m hoping the league’s understanding of concussions has evolved enough that we don’t need to see Muzzin take the Hanzal hit to prove he’s done.

Imo July 1st is a good ending point for both sides, Muzzin gets all but 2 million of his contract and we don’t need to carry the cap hit through the offseason or pay to dump it. If he’s up to it I’m sure there’s a spot in management with Spezza to keep him occupied.

 

[ULF_55]

Pronger played another 6 games after the initial Grabovski concussion/eye injury before a very light hit from Hanzal took him out for good, I’m hoping the league’s understanding of concussions has evolved enough that we don’t need to see Muzzin take the Hanzal hit to prove he’s done.

Imo July 1st is a good ending point for both sides, Muzzin gets all but 2 million of his contract and we don’t need to carry the cap hit through the offseason or pay to dump it. If he’s up to it I’m sure there’s a spot in management with Spezza to keep him occupied.

Doubt very much he throws away $2mm.

I could see him traded to a team that might want to use his Cap hit though.

That doesn't preclude him from being employed though.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I suspect we pay out the bonus on July 1st and then it's off to Arizona to get them to the floor.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

feel for muzz but quite frankly he already has a cup with the kings; he should just rest up and avoid any serious injury and look towards the future spending time with his family and friends and living a quality life

also a hockey fan in me is wondering:.... how can we use muzzin's LTIR to our benefit at the TDL? here is hoping Pridham is working his ass off



I would assume that Muzzin's contract extension with the Leafs would have been insured

He's back home on da Woodstock ranch .. my best guess he is done .. Leafs will likely use their LTIR to improve roster at TDL for another run

 

[Legion34]

No reason to retire though.

Being unable to play hockey doesn't mean he's unable to work, or be involved in team activities in a non-playing role.

I mean I know there is precedent for this, but if he is still a hockey player under contract…. I still don’t understand how this is legal in the cap world. He could collect a pay check as a hockey player and as a non playing member of the organization.

Why doesn’t Toronto just pay Matthews 1 million and hire him for 20 million as an ambassador? Or a scout in Arizona for summer hockey.

It’s really dumb. Like pronger was on a teams payroll while suspending players. Just Mickey Mouse all round

 

[LeafGrief]

Interesting to hear that he's still spending the day to day with the team. That bodes well for quality of life that he's able to be out and about doing the thing that he loves. It's been clear since the day he put the Maple Leaf on what he means to the team and the guys. Sad, but not at all surprising that he's not anywhere near a return.

One of the best defensemen we've had in my 25 years as a fan. A well rounded modern defenseman at his peak, we'd love to have him back in our lineup and healthy. <3 Muzzin.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I mean I know there is precedent for this, but if he is still a hockey player under contract…. I still don’t understand how this is legal in the cap world. He could collect a pay check as a hockey player and as a non playing member of the organization.

Why doesn’t Toronto just pay Matthews 1 million and hire him for 20 million as an ambassador? Or a scout in Arizona for summer hockey.

It’s really dumb. Like pronger was on a teams payroll while suspending players. Just Mickey Mouse all round

I’d rather Pronger collect two pay checks than have a situation like Horton where he has to decide between getting a career ending surgery that would massively improve his quality of life or putting it off for 4 years so he can keep getting paid on LTIR.

 

[ULF_55]

I mean I know there is precedent for this, but if he is still a hockey player under contract…. I still don’t understand how this is legal in the cap world. He could collect a pay check as a hockey player and as a non playing member of the organization.

Why doesn’t Toronto just pay Matthews 1 million and hire him for 20 million as an ambassador? Or a scout in Arizona for summer hockey.

It’s really dumb. Like pronger was on a teams payroll while suspending players. Just Mickey Mouse all round

The insurance covers playing hockey, and there is no conflict with being paid to do other work. And it is medically supported to pay the insurance due to the injury.

I know with LTD insurance, the amount the insurance company pays is reduced by other incomes.
Example, you are unable to work and you have Long Term Disability insurance, the insurance company (in many if not most cases) can force you to apply for CPP Disability. If CPP Disability turns you down, it is likely the insurance company will try and terminate their insurance to you. (They do it all the time, and that's why there are law firms that deal exclusively with this. Insurance companies go for low hanging fruit, so if you don't fight it you'll lose it. A hint for applying for CPP D ... be creative in your application and tell them a story about your struggles. Give them something to ponder and appreciate. Make them care.) However, if CPP Disability accepts your claim, the insurance company reduces the amount they pay by the amount CPPD pays.

Now that is likely very different than an insurance policy that is taken out to cover a "NHL Contract."

Being insured to play hockey, doesn't mean you can't work in a non-hockey playing profession.
Leafs are not circumventing the salary cap.
I doubt they are paying anything except expenses where legal.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Muzz was/is a complete warrior. I am sure not playing is weighing on him very heavily. Happy to hear he is still being involved in team activities and goin on the road with the boys. If he never laces em' up for us again, or at all, he should be proud of the career he had. Some thing are just way more important then a game. Get healthy, be the father your kids deserve, and the husband your wife deserves.

All the best Muzz

 

[horner]

Interesting to hear that he's still spending the day to day with the team. That bodes well for quality of life that he's able to be out and about doing the thing that he loves. It's been clear since the day he put the Maple Leaf on what he means to the team and the guys. Sad, but not at all surprising that he's not anywhere near a return.

One of the best defensemen we've had in my 25 years as a fan. A well rounded modern defenseman at his peak, we'd love to have him back in our lineup and healthy. <3 Muzzin.

At this point he needs to think about his family.
He will be part of the lead organization in the future if he wishes to.

 

[Ciao]

Pronger played another 6 games after the initial Grabovski concussion/eye injury before a very light hit from Hanzal took him out for good, I’m hoping the league’s understanding of concussions has evolved enough that we don’t need to see Muzzin take the Hanzal hit to prove he’s done.

Imo July 1st is a good ending point for both sides, Muzzin gets all but 2 million of his contract and we don’t need to carry the cap hit through the offseason or pay to dump it. If he’s up to it I’m sure there’s a spot in management with Spezza to keep him occupied.

Why should Muzzin have to retire before his contact expires? That makes no sense. The risk of injury is a very important reason that guaranteed player contracts are the cornerstone of the CBA.

 

[Legion34]

I’d rather Pronger collect two pay checks than have a situation like Horton where he has to decide between getting a career ending surgery that would massively improve his quality of life or putting it off for 4 years so he can keep getting paid on LTIR.

Sorry why would that be the case? If you have career ending surgery……. You think they can make you retire?

I’m pretty positive that’s not at all true. They can’t make you hold off on a career ending surgery if that is what is medically recommended for your health.

No one can. That is very illegal in Canada. Where his contract was traded to. The CBA can’t supersede healthcare laws

 

[Legion34]

The insurance covers playing hockey, and there is no conflict with being paid to do other work. And it is medically supported to pay the insurance due to the injury.

I know with LTD insurance, the amount the insurance company pays is reduced by other incomes.
Example, you are unable to work and you have Long Term Disability insurance, the insurance company (in many if not most cases) can force you to apply for CPP Disability. If CPP Disability turns you down, it is likely the insurance company will try and terminate their insurance to you. (They do it all the time, and that's why there are law firms that deal exclusively with this. Insurance companies go for low hanging fruit, so if you don't fight it you'll lose it. A hint for applying for CPP D ... be creative in your application and tell them a story about your struggles. Give them something to ponder and appreciate. Make them care.) However, if CPP Disability accepts your claim, the insurance company reduces the amount they pay by the amount CPPD pays.

Now that is likely very different than an insurance policy that is taken out to cover a "NHL Contract."

Being insured to play hockey, doesn't mean you can't work in a non-hockey playing profession.
Leafs are not circumventing the salary cap.
I doubt they are paying anything except expenses where legal.

There is a conflict with being on the payroll of a team and disciplining the entire league. Absolutely there is.

If they allow a player to take money outside of the system from the nhl why couldn’t a player take less salary and take a “ambassador job” is my point as a way around the cap

 

[ULF_55]

There is a conflict with being on the payroll of a team and disciplining the entire league. Absolutely there is.

If they allow a player to take money outside of the system from the nhl why couldn’t a player take less salary and take a “ambassador job” is my point as a way around the cap

If a player is playing that would be an issue.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Sorry why would that be the case? If you have career ending surgery……. You think they can make you retire?

I’m pretty positive that’s not at all true. They can’t make you hold off on a career ending surgery if that is what is medically recommended for your health.

No one can. That is very illegal in Canada. Where his contract was traded to. The CBA can’t supersede healthcare laws

In Horton's case he needed a disc fusion surgery to regain any sort of mobility, but if he got the surgery he would no longer be eligible to play. If there's a 1% chance a Pronger, Clarkson, or Hossa can play again, they can sit on LTIR. If you have a surgery that guarantees you can no longer play in the NHL safely I think that complicates things, at least based on how the articles around Horton's situation were worded. They kept talking about the surgery ending his playing career and that he doesn't want to do it because of "what that would mean". After 1 or 2 full years of it being clear he can't play with his back as-is, why woudn't he get the surgery so he could not be in terrible pain every day if he gets to stay on LTIR anyway? There's no downside other than giving up on your 0.0001% chance of it magically fixing itself.

I don't think they would have made him forfeit all the money owed via forced retirement, they could just deem him ineligible for LTIR and force the team to carry his contract at full pop or buy him out as if he had retired. There were also cap recapture implications if he were to retire early IIRC. No one had a gun to his head about not getting the surgery but there were clearly factors for delaying it outside of strictly medical concerns and he suffered for years because of it.