Muscle!

[Darth Milbury]

size doesn't matter....the rallying cry in Islander message boards and gym lockerroom showers since the dawn of time.

Well, I agree that height doesn't matter. Its bulk that's important!


And, as much as I am working over Seafoam, I also admit he has a point. Muscle is definitely just one part of the picture.

 

[seafoam]

MDC is 180 pounds and years away from the NHL. Lee may not even be a regular forward. As for all those supposedly huge defenders, also years away. For now, we have more sub six footers on defense than probably any team in the league.

Even Brock Nelson (who, btw, is tall but weedy) and Okposo are not really gritty guys.

Sorry, but anybody who is unwilling to recognize that this is a smallish team that is not especially gritty, is just not being realistic.

Now again, I am not taking your tremendous conceptual leap and arguing that size is the only issue that matters, but it is a problem.

I'm not unwilling to acknowledge we have a small team. I just don't really care that much because we can make it into the playoffs with current group we have (in my opinion), which we need to do this year.

As for MDC, yes, the kid needs to get into The Dungeon with Tavares & Co. next summer and beef up big time, but when it's all said and done, he should have above average NHL size. Is he going to be a banger? No, but I expect him to be successful at getting the puck to scoring areas from the boards.

Regarding Lee, you've been pumping his tires on the trade board, and now he may not even be a regular forward? Lee is huge, look at him outmuscle Phanuef. You are also right, Nelson hasn't filled out, but I don't see him struggling to meet the physical demands of the NHL with his current lanky frame, he already uses his body to box out defenders and shield the puck.

I don't mind when we have a friendly joust, because it helps me get out what I really meant to say.

 

[Darth Milbury]

I'm not unwilling to acknowledge we have a small team. I just don't really care that much because we can make it into the playoffs with current group we have (in my opinion), which we need to do this year.

As for MDC, yes, the kid needs to get into The Dungeon with Tavares & Co. next summer and beef up big time, but when it's all said and done, he should have above average NHL size. Is he going to be a banger? No, but I expect him to be successful at getting the puck to scoring areas from the boards.

Regarding Lee, you've been pumping his tires on the trade board, and now he may not even be a regular forward? Lee is huge, look at him outmuscle Phanuef. You are also right, Nelson hasn't filled out, but I don't see him struggling to meet the physical demands of the NHL with his current lanky frame, he already uses his body to box out defenders and shield the puck.

I don't mind when we have a friendly joust, because it helps me get out what I really meant to say.

All our jousts are friendly Seafoam, because whether you like it or not, we are friends! (at least in a cyber sense).


I like Lee a lot and think he has fantastic potential. I'm just not sure he'll be a regular next year because he doesn't have to clear waiver to be sent down, and because there is a lot of depth in front of him.

 

[crasherino]

When toughness is needed, you will see Carkner and/or Boulton in the lineup.

I think therein lies the problem, to some extent. The fact that we have to resort to carrying goons like these guys means that our regular rotation can't fully handle themselves. That's not the end of the world and a lot of teams have to do it, but dressing Carkner makes this team worse. Same with dressing Boulton (although you can get away with a 5 min/night forward). If our regular lineup could take care of itself, we wouldn't need to do that.

In a few years, we should have a lineup that will probably take care of itself. Doesn't mean that Griff will be dropping the gloves. But, he's not going to get pushed around like a Hickey. Ditto with the other guys coming up.

We have some guys with decent size and snarl (Martin/Clutter and even Cizikis - with snarl), but guys like Bailey, Fransy, Strome, etc. are going to get pushed around a bit. A potential 3rd line of Grabs - Fransy - Bailey is definitely viable, but its also one of the softest potential lines in the league. Doesn't mean you can't roll it out, but it is a concern.

 

[Darth Milbury]

I think therein lies the problem, to some extent. The fact that we have to resort to carrying goons like these guys means that our regular rotation can't fully handle themselves. That's not the end of the world and a lot of teams have to do it, but dressing Carkner makes this team worse. Same with dressing Boulton (although you can get away with a 5 min/night forward). If our regular lineup could take care of itself, we wouldn't need to do that.

In a few years, we should have a lineup that will probably take care of itself. Doesn't mean that Griff will be dropping the gloves. But, he's not going to get pushed around like a Hickey. Ditto with the other guys coming up.

We have some guys with decent size and snarl (Martin/Clutter and even Cizikis - with snarl), but guys like Bailey, Fransy, Strome, etc. are going to get pushed around a bit. A potential 3rd line of Grabs - Fransy - Bailey is definitely viable, but its also one of the softest potential lines in the league. Doesn't mean you can't roll it out, but it is a concern.

Exactamundo. You have completely nailed what concerns me.

 

[YearlyLottery]

Evey team in the NHL would love to add size with skill, but it's very hard to add. Think about some of the forwards we've drafted the last couple years.

Kyle Okposo
Josh Bailey
John Tavares
Nino
Strome
De Haan
Reinhart
Pulock
Dal Colle

So I ask you, would you pick Kreider over de HAAN? I know for a fact I wanted Kreider during that draft with the de HAAN pick.

Now the next question is SIZE or TOUGHNESS? Give me a Clutterbuck over a Kvasha any day of the week. While Cizikas had a bad year last year he had a great rookie year. It goes to show size doesn't always mean toughness.

It's very tough to get an Evander Kane and when one of them is actually picked up the price is too much. Many people on this board KILLED Garth for the Vanek trade, but imagine making that trade for a bigger forward?

Having some size in the lineup is nice but IMO it is more about your toughness rather than your size.

Also I kind of thought that Kulemin was physical. Does anybody know how physical Kule is?

 

[A Pointed Stick]

Evey team in the NHL would love to add size with skill, but it's very hard to add. Think about some of the forwards we've drafted the last couple years.

I would contend that our overall drafting scheme under Jankowski was mostly a bunch of untalented Marys. One thing I give props to Snow for was going back to basics with bigger guys in general, and part of that was removing Jankowski, bringing Trent Klatt on board, bringing the scouting Cairns and Webb... These are meat and potato mentality guys who appreciate both skill and size. The hard part was waiting for the shift in size in the locker room. These past few years have been painfully hard to deal with, but it is improving, if only inch by inch at times.

 

[rikker]

while i definitely think that we can benefit greatly from an infusion of size (mostly in front of our own net), there is one caveat... they have decent speed/quickness.

 

[crasherino]

JMO, while this a concern as it stands now, there's nothing truly to be done but wait and make due. Its not like its a grave situation that has to be addressed right away, but it is noticeable. It will play itself out in the next 2 years with the advancement of our defense and when guys like Lee take a full time role, Nelson fills out - ditto with MDC.

For now, we need to get guys like Grabs playing with the aggression they can. Grabs will never be mistaken for a bruiser, but he's not a small guy and put a shoulder into someone on the forecheck when he sets his mind to it. Would love to see an angry Josh Bailey too one day. If he could incorporate a lil (tiny lil) snarl to his game, he'd be so much better off. I realize you can't make someone into something they're not, but just a wee bit and he'd be a different player.

 

[On Edge]

JMO, while this a concern as it stands now, there's nothing truly to be done but wait and make due. Its not like its a grave situation that has to be addressed right away, but it is noticeable. It will play itself out in the next 2 years with the advancement of our defense and when guys like Lee take a full time role, Nelson fills out - ditto with MDC.

For now, we need to get guys like Grabs playing with the aggression they can. Grabs will never be mistaken for a bruiser, but he's not a small guy and put a shoulder into someone on the forecheck when he sets his mind to it. Would love to see an angry Josh Bailey too one day. If he could incorporate a lil (tiny lil) snarl to his game, he'd be so much better off. I realize you can't make someone into something they're not, but just a wee bit and he'd be a different player.

Great point and agree completely. Love to see him add just a hint of edge to his game and I agree it could help him immensely.

Waiting for the proverbial light bulb to go off with JB. I'm rooting for him but have my doubts.

 

[bluechipbonzo]

Anybody else concerned about our chronic lack of size? If you look at our top three centers (Grabo, Tavares, and Nielsen) we are pretty talented, but there isn't an ounce of aggression in the group. None of those guys are soft (I've seen JT sitting in front with guys hacking at his shins) but none are scary either.


In the top six, we maybe have Brock Nelson and Okposo as big physical specimens, but neither is particularly chippy.


In fact, in our top nine, I'd see that the only the much maligned Clutterbuck has got an physical edge.


On defense, the situation is even more dire. I was stunned by how physical Calvin de Haan has become, but he is still too small to be a mean hitter. Hickey and Vish are two of the only NHL players who would not be able to take me in a fist fight. Hamonic, despite his size, is not really a mean hitter. Right now, our most physical defender is probably Griffin Reinhart.


Doesn't seem like this issue has been addressed at all in the offseason.

That's why Bailey is in danger of fourth line duty...Clutterbuck bangs and brings energy without worrying too too much on the defensive side of things- even with his lower-body injury last season he was never a plodding skater- there is a good motor and decent hockey sense there. The lack of size down the middle gets mitigated by the strong board and corner work of Okposo and Nelson, but Clutterbuck is the banger. If Bailey can't bring that urgency the first month of the season, I like these lines:

Nelson-JT-KO
Kul-Grabv-Strome
Grabner-Frans-Clutterbuck
Martin-CC-Bailey

Interesting then that Bailey could then displace CC as some here have suggested. Okay, well maybe it was written somewhere else haha.

 

[PK Cronin]

That's why Bailey is in danger of fourth line duty...Clutterbuck bangs and brings energy without worrying too too much on the defensive side of things- even with his lower-body injury last season he was never a plodding skater- there is a good motor and decent hockey sense there. The lack of size down the middle gets mitigated by the strong board and corner work of Okposo and Nelson, but Clutterbuck is the banger. If Bailey can't bring that urgency the first month of the season, I like these lines:

Nelson-JT-KO
Kul-Grabv-Strome
Grabner-Frans-Clutterbuck
Martin-CC-Bailey

Interesting then that Bailey could then displace CC as some here have suggested. Okay, well maybe it was written somewhere else haha.

Bailey produces at the top of 2nd line wingers in the NHL and you have him slotted on the 4th line...

 

[OlTimeHockey]

Bailey produces at the top of 2nd line wingers in the NHL and you have him slotted on the 4th line...

I'd have him on the first line wing if we were playing the team willing to do it. In a heartbeat.

He's a third liner. DEFENSE!

 

[Sparksrus3]

JMO, while this a concern as it stands now, there's nothing truly to be done but wait and make due. Its not like its a grave situation that has to be addressed right away, but it is noticeable. It will play itself out in the next 2 years with the advancement of our defense and when guys like Lee take a full time role, Nelson fills out - ditto with MDC.

For now, we need to get guys like Grabs playing with the aggression they can. Grabs will never be mistaken for a bruiser, but he's not a small guy and put a shoulder into someone on the forecheck when he sets his mind to it. Would love to see an angry Josh Bailey too one day. If he could incorporate a lil (tiny lil) snarl to his game, he'd be so much better off. I realize you can't make someone into something they're not, but just a wee bit and he'd be a different player.

Maybe josh could wear the chains on the ice

 

[bluechipbonzo]

Bailey produces at the top of 2nd line wingers in the NHL and you have him slotted on the 4th line...

I don't have him anywhere...I said he is in danger this year of that kind of role, especially considering the terrific depth we now have.

Hey, I've been one of JB's biggest supporters, but it's ten minutes to midnight here for this guy.

If Clutterbuck is healthy and outproducing Bailey, I can absolutely see him spending time on the fourth line.

They certainly aren't playing Okposo there, or Strome- he'd be better off with the tigers- that leaves Clutterbuck and Bailey, unless I've got my wings backwards...

 

[isles31]

We did add Kulemin, who is not particularly tall, but is very stocky and strong, and he does lay the body pretty regularly. He is not a feared player either, of course, but on the Islanders only Clutterbuck is a more physical top 9 forward, IMO. So I would say that is an upgrade, albeit, a small one.

It's not about fear. These guys are pros and it's about wearing them down with my he body. Kuli, Martin, Clutter, KO and to a lesser extent Zeeker all play the body pretty well. cMac and Boults do as well but ice time will be tough for them with the glut of forwards the team has.

Isles are fast. They need to use a fast, hard forechecking system to be successful. Most of us can see that, hopefully the coaches do as well. Force turnovers and capitalize. This isn't a puck possession team.

 

[LeapOnOver]

Sounds like a complaining for the sake of complaining thread. I'm not worried about the size at all. We've got enough guys that play with snarl and heart who don't back down and get intimidated. We'll be fine...

 

[Darth Milbury]

Sounds like a complaining for the sake of complaining thread. I'm not worried about the size at all. We've got enough guys that play with snarl and heart who don't back down and get intimidated. We'll be fine...

By every analysis, I've seen, the Isles have one of the smallest teams in the league. They're probably the only team in the NHL that regularly dresses multiple defenders who are in the 5'10" range. Probably 50% to 75% of the Isles forward are soft or at least nonphysical.

I'm sorry, but anybody who describes this team as playing "with snarl and heart" is just not looking at reality.

Honestly, this is up there with your claim that Hedman is not an offensive defenseman. I don't know whether you make these sort of wildly unrealistic statements to try and provoke conflict or something, but it gets pretty silly.

 

[crasherino]

By every analysis, I've seen, the Isles have one of the smallest teams in the league. They're probably the only team in the NHL that regularly dresses multiple defenders who are in the 5'10" range. Probably 50% to 75% of the Isles forward are soft or at least nonphysical.

I'm sorry, but anybody who describes this team as playing "with snarl and heart" is just not looking at reality.

Honestly, this is up there with your claim that Hedman is not an offensive defenseman. I don't know whether you make these sort of wildly unrealistic statements to try and provoke conflict or something, but it gets pretty silly.

Darth - this sort of combines the muscle and defense questions you've been posing.....what does it take for the Isles to trade for Boychuk IYO? It obviously doesn't address muscle up front, but it gives us the veteran rock in our top 4 that we are so desperately lacking as well as the additional physical presence that needs to be paired with a Hickey/Lubo.

Think the B's would go for a deal centered on a Pelech/Mayfield type player? Perhaps if we retain big $$$ of Bailey's salary (maybe new ownership would OK) and throw him in as well?

Being that they have to move salary, its seems like too good a fit not to persue.

 

[Darth Milbury]

Darth - this sort of combines the muscle and defense questions you've been posing.....what does it take for the Isles to trade for Boychuk IYO? It obviously doesn't address muscle up front, but it gives us the veteran rock in our top 4 that we are so desperately lacking as well as the additional physical presence that needs to be paired with a Hickey/Lubo.

Think the B's would go for a deal centered on a Pelech/Mayfield type player? Perhaps if we retain big $$$ of Bailey's salary (maybe new ownership would OK) and throw him in as well?

Being that they have to move salary, its seems like too good a fit not to persue.

Love to have him, but ask yourself why a contender moves a guy like him.

I think Boston will get under the cap some other way.

 

[LeapOnOver]

By every analysis, I've seen, the Isles have one of the smallest teams in the league. They're probably the only team in the NHL that regularly dresses multiple defenders who are in the 5'10" range. Probably 50% to 75% of the Isles forward are soft or at least nonphysical.

I'm sorry, but anybody who describes this team as playing "with snarl and heart" is just not looking at reality.

Honestly, this is up there with your claim that Hedman is not an offensive defenseman. I don't know whether you make these sort of wildly unrealistic statements to try and provoke conflict or something, but it gets pretty silly.

Go down the roster and tell me who doesn't play with snarl and heart. I can do it for you:

Guys who play with snarl and heart:
JT
Okposo
Clutterbuck
Martin
Cizikas
de Haan
Carkner
Grabner
Hamonic
Nelson

The rest either lack snarl, or lack heart, or both. At least half the lineup is snarl and heart and that's not including the addition of Kulemin. Like I said, we are fine.

 

[YearlyLottery]

By every analysis, I've seen, the Isles have one of the smallest teams in the league. They're probably the only team in the NHL that regularly dresses multiple defenders who are in the 5'10" range. Probably 50% to 75% of the Isles forward are soft or at least nonphysical.

I'm sorry, but anybody who describes this team as playing "with snarl and heart" is just not looking at reality.

Honestly, this is up there with your claim that Hedman is not an offensive defenseman. I don't know whether you make these sort of wildly unrealistic statements to try and provoke conflict or something, but it gets pretty silly.

Offensively I don't see a problem size wise IMO. But defensively you have a great point.

Hamonic
De haan
Visnovsky
Hickey
Carkner
Reinhart


Would love to replace Carkner and Brennan with players that can play a nice physical game of hockey. I would love if the Boychuck rumors become a reality because all of a sudden we don't have such a small defense.

 

[Jester9881]

Chicago is one of the best teams in the league, and they aren't particularly large or gritty. I like the makeup of this team, I just wish Snow would have added a veteran scorer (for high end offense) and defenseman (more for stability on the back end and experience).

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Chicago is one of the best teams in the league, and they aren't particularly large or gritty. I like the makeup of this team, I just wish Snow would have added a veteran scorer (for high end offense) and defenseman (more for stability on the back end and experience).

I think some would say that Grabovski is the 'veteran' scorer he added. That remains to be seen, but heck, if JT and Okposo continue their thing, Nielsen still manages 30+ points and the Grabovski-Kulemin combo combines for 70 points, we should have the firepower alone to get into PO land.

Got a feeling that the Dman is still coming. He wasn't found per free agency or a trade that made sense, but once waiver wire time roles around, that player may materialize.

I think we're primed to see a deal involving Bailey/Grabner + a defensive prospect or two shipped for a bonafide, righty shooting top 4 Dman, likely one who is a bit pricey.

Should be here by mid October.

 

[bigd]

Go down the roster and tell me who doesn't play with snarl and heart. I can do it for you:

Guys who play with snarl and heart:
JT
Okposo
Clutterbuck
Martin
Cizikas
de Haan
Carkner
Grabner
Hamonic
Nelson

The rest either lack snarl, or lack heart, or both. At least half the lineup is snarl and heart and that's not including the addition of Kulemin. Like I said, we are fine.

Grabner has about as much snarl as a ***** cat.