Murray and Muckler

[Ice-Tray]

I'm not arguing he's not the best goalie in Sens history or anything. Just interesting that guys like Hiller, Anderson and Lalime are ranked so high in playoff save percentage. Bit of a small sample size I suppose. "Good Craig" is phenomenal, it's too bad he couldn't be a bit more consistent throughout his career.

Yup I agree with you. It looks like certain goalies really up their games in the playoffs just like some skaters.

I also looked at all time playoff games and wow Patty Roy with 151. Man those 90’s Devil, Wings, and Avs were so consistently good.

 

[Stylizer1]

Muckler inherited a great YOUNG team that existed in an era where players were cost controlled until they hit UFA, and the UFA age was 31. He didn't DO anything to "keep them great". He was given a ton of young elite players, and a farm system that wad the envy of the entire league, and all he had to do was put his feet up and enjoy the gift he was given.

Murray inherited an aging good team whose cup window was very quickly closing, and with no assets left in the organization to cope.

If you think the team Murray inherited was in any way set up to succeed over a long period of time in the way that the team Muckler inherited was, then there's nothing left to discuss, as we clearly aren't even having the same conversation.

Everything you are arguing changed when the cap cam in. When we went to the finals Murray had Spezza 24, Heatley 25, Emery, 23, Fisher 27, vermette 25, Redden 30, Alfie was 34 but was still very elite. No one said the team Murray inherited was set up to succeed over a long time. Teams who make it to the finals tend to not have as much depth in the minors than teams who miss the playoffs. Murray had the opportunity to tear down a team and build it the way he wanted and it resulted in a very average tenure.

If you remember Muckler did sit back and enjoy our young guns until we lost each season to Toronto. Then he had to adjust the team because of the cap and we remained at the top even though we lost some of our elite talent.

Murray inherited a core of good players and did nothing with them just like Dorion.

 

[umma gumma]

When you look at the trades made by Muckler before the cap you can see he was clearing cap room by moving Bonk, Lalime, White, Hossa, and DeVries. Other teams where doing the same. Even though we traded many core pieces we stayed elite. Looking back he should have received more in return but at the time it's what was available. Just like when Murray traded Heatley, Spezza, should have got back more but didn't Or Dorion trading Hoffman and Karlsson. During Muckler's time we traded away mostly crappy players and got back mostly crappy players. Scouting under him sucked.

When we look back at Murray's tenure we will say he had good scouts and drafted well but made bad trades too. From when he took over from Muckler to say 2011 when we started the retool he didn't add anyone either of any importance. He did trade away the 16th overall for Rundblad and that pick turned into Tarasenko. He did trade Auld for a 6th rounder which turned out to be Stone so I guess they cancel each other out.

Muckler inherited a great team and kept them great. Murray inherited a great team and tore it down slowly. At this point this team has almost no resemblance to the one he left Dorion. Dorion will still go down in history as our worst GM.

Murray inherited a good one line team with an impotent talent pool on the farm.

 

[Micklebot]

Muckler inherited a great YOUNG team that existed in an era where players were cost controlled until they hit UFA, and the UFA age was 31. He didn't DO anything to "keep them great". He was given a ton of young elite players, and a farm system that wad the envy of the entire league, and all he had to do was put his feet up and enjoy the gift he was given.

Murray inherited an aging good team whose cup window was very quickly closing, and with no assets left in the organization to cope.

If you think the team Murray inherited was in any way set up to succeed over a long period of time in the way that the team Muckler inherited was, then there's nothing left to discuss, as we clearly aren't even having the same conversation.

I'd argue there were three perceived issues with the Sens:

1. Jaques Martin, while great in the reg season, was consistently outcoached in the playoffs.
2. Goaltending was well below the standard set by the rest of the team, all apologies to Lalime who was a great guy.
3. Team toughness was seen as an issue.

He addressed point 1 by bringing in Murray, who as a coach was certainly a success, the who's to say how Martin would have done in the same situation.
He tried to address point 2 by bringing in Hasek. This turned out to be a failure, and continued to be one with the acquisition of Gerber.
I guess you could argue he addressed point 3 with McGratten, though I'd argue Marshall Johnston had already done so with Chara and Neil. Please don't try and tell me swapping Hossa for Heatley changed team toughness in any way. Good 'ol Canadian kid vs heartless European tropes don't really carry much water here imo.

So in terms of addressing perceived issues, he took action, was successful in one, unsuccessful in one, and at best a wash in the third. This of course is before evaluating whether or not the perceived issues were true issues in need of being addressed, which is a little more hypothetical in nature.

When Murray took over, he needed to address the crumbling farm system, which he surely did, the goaltending, which he eventually did, fill a coaching vacancy which his promotion created, which he failed hard at. In the latter half of his tenure, additional constraints were added in terms of finances.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

I'm not arguing he's not the best goalie in Sens history or anything. Just interesting that guys like Hiller, Anderson and Lalime are ranked so high in playoff save percentage. Bit of a small sample size I suppose. "Good Craig" is phenomenal, it's too bad he couldn't be a bit more consistent throughout his career.

If he was a bit more consistent in his career he probably demands a much larger salary than he made, especially during his UFA years.

 

[Micklebot]

If you remember Muckler did sit back and enjoy our young guns until we lost each season to Toronto. Then he had to adjust the team because of the cap and we remained at the top even though we lost some of our elite talent.

This isn't really true, we faced Toronto once after Muckler was hired, so each season?

Muckler was hired in Jun 2002, we went to the conference finals losing to NJD that year.
We lost the next year to Torono in 7 because Lalime was a sieve (likely do to a back injury, but I digress). The next year, Martin was gone, Murray was in, Hossa was gone, and McGratten was brought in not to play in the playoffs.

Heck, he already started offloading our farm for unneeded pieces going into the playoffs against Toronto, like trading Laich for Bondra which made even less sense given that the knock on the team was perceived toughness and goal tending not scoring wingers.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Yup, agree. Lalime is also up there in all time stats.

If only we could score in the playoffs. Gary Roberts, or a guy like Tkachuk would have been monstrous for us.

It’s a running joke for sure, but I believe that a Gary Roberts would have been to type of player to lead the charge when the team needed an adrenaline boost.

Ah well....

Agreed, that's the thing that the Senators just didn't have back then. That guy to go into the extra gear.

Alfie was started to do that, but he was guilty of trying to do too much on his own. Hossa wasn't there yet either. We all know what happened to Spezza and Heatley when the going got tough too.

Its unfortunate cause the Senators had all the right pieces at various points, but just never had them all together at the right time.

 

[Stylizer1]

I'd argue there were three perceived issues with the Sens:

1. Jaques Martin, while great in the reg season, was consistently outcoached in the playoffs.
2. Goaltending was well below the standard set by the rest of the team, all apologies to Lalime who was a great guy.
3. Team toughness was seen as an issue.

He addressed point 1 by bringing in Murray, who as a coach was certainly a success, the who's to say how Martin would have done in the same situation.
He tried to address point 2 by bringing in Hasek. This turned out to be a failure, and continued to be one with the acquisition of Gerber.
I guess you could argue he addressed point 3 with McGratten, though I'd argue Marshall Johnston had already done so with Chara and Neil. Please don't try and tell me swapping Hossa for Heatley changed team toughness in any way. Good 'ol Canadian kid vs heartless European tropes don't really carry much water here imo.

So in terms of addressing perceived issues, he took action, was successful in one, unsuccessful in one, and at best a wash in the third. This of course is before evaluating whether or not the perceived issues were true issues in need of being addressed, which is a little more hypothetical in nature.

When Murray took over, he needed to address the crumbling farm system, which he surely did, the goaltending, which he eventually did, fill a coaching vacancy which his promotion created, which he failed hard at. In the latter half of his tenure, additional constraints were added in terms of finances.

he brought in Simpson, DeVries, in 2004 and Varada, Ray in 2003 to address toughness.

 

[Ice-Tray]

he brought in Simpson, DeVries, in 2004 and Varada, Ray in 2003 to address toughness.

We needed Gary Roberts type toughness, not Ray type toughness.

Heart, grit, in a guy that had enough skill to make plays and score, that’s what we needed.

We had toughness, and we had skill, we needed the guy who could lead the charge when the going got tough.

Currently I see BT as that type of player, which is why he is so valuable.

 

[Stylizer1]

This isn't really true, we faced Toronto once after Muckler was hired, so each season?

Muckler was hired in Jun 2002, we went to the conference finals losing to NJD that year.
We lost the next year to Torono in 7 because Lalime was a sieve (likely do to a back injury, but I digress). The next year, Martin was gone, Murray was in, Hossa was gone, and McGratten was brought in not to play in the playoffs.

Heck, he already started offloading our farm for unneeded pieces going into the playoffs against Toronto, like trading Laich for Bondra which made even less sense given that the knock on the team was perceived toughness and goal tending not scoring wingers.

You are right I kind of worded that wrong.

 

[Stylizer1]

We needed Gary Roberts type toughness, not Ray type toughness.

Heart, grit, in a guy that had enough skill to make plays and score, that’s what we needed.

We had toughness, and we had skill, we needed the guy who could lead the charge when the going got tough.

Currently I see BT as that type of player, which is why he is so valuable.

We all wanted Roberts but for what ever reason we go Ray. Probably better options than that also but none the less the guy was tough.

 

[Stylizer1]

Currently I see BT as that type of player, which is why he is so valuable.

As long as he doesn't flame out as a 3rd liner playing 13 minutes a night.

 

[Tuna99]

Wow, Mucker takes flak for not getting Gary Roberts and Murray gets a pass for getting nobody in the Spezza trade, basically nothing in the Heatley trade, turning Mike Fisher into an AHL depth winger and thinking Bobby Ryan could replace Daniel Alfredsson.

Muckler has the 2 best coaches one sens history - Murray has all the worst ones, pass.

We had an AHL defends with Weircoche, Cowen and the guy we traded a 1st for - and that’s called restocking the cupboard.

I guess winning doesn’t carry as much weight as it used to.

 

[stempniaksen]

s winning doesn’t carry as much weight as it used to.

We didn't win because of Muckler, we won in spite of him. Guy did nothing positive, minus bringing in Murray as coach.

Don't take this as an endorsement of Murray either, but Muckler was beyond awful and was lucky enough to inherit a great team from the best GM in franchise history.

 

[Tuna99]

We didn't win because of Muckler, we won in spite of him. Guy did nothing positive, minus bringing in Murray as coach.

Don't take this as an endorsement of Murray either, but Muckler was beyond awful and was lucky enough to inherit a great team from the best GM in franchise history.

Isn’t this the main problem with Murray, he couldn’t keep any player in Ottawa and Mucklers players didnt want to leave? Every summer Murray had an elite player jumping ship. Is Muckler to blame for that as well?

This is an agree to disagree subject - I liked watching those winning teams and hear about the buyin from players. Id watch any Muckler assembles team over any Murray assembled team.

And any Muckler assemblesd team would beat any Murray assembled team in a playoff series - and that’s what it’s about IMO.

 

[Neil Patrick Harris]

Wow, Mucker takes flak for not getting Gary Roberts and Murray gets a pass for getting nobody in the Spezza trade, basically nothing in the Heatley trade, turning Mike Fisher into an AHL depth winger and thinking Bobby Ryan could replace Daniel Alfredsson.

Muckler has the 2 best coaches one sens history - Murray has all the worst ones, pass.

We had an AHL defends with Weircoche, Cowen and the guy we traded a 1st for - and that’s called restocking the cupboard.

I guess winning doesn’t carry as much weight as it used to.

It's a real shame Murray never managed to draft a good defenseman.

 

[stempniaksen]

Isn’t this the main problem with Murray, he couldn’t keep any player in Ottawa and Mucklers players didnt want to leave? Every summer Murray had an elite player jumping ship. Is Muckler to blame for that as well?

This is an agree to disagree subject - I liked watching those winning teams and hear about the buyin from players. Id watch any Muckler assembles team over any Murray assembled team.

And any Muckler assemblesd team would beat any Murray assembled team in a playoff series - and that’s what it’s about IMO.

Point is that Muckler never had to "assemble a team" here, he already had a cup contending roster assembled by Marshall Johnston.

You could argue he "won" 1 trade in his entire time here, and only 3 trades total could really be deemed a success, imo.

We can obviously agree to disagree, I'm not here to change your mind. I just honestly don't know what Muckler did in his time here to be viewed that highly. Guy was a complete tirefire for most of his tenure and refused to make a move that could put us over the top.

 

[Tuna99]

It's a real shame Murray never managed to draft a good defenseman.

His 1 saving grace. He did that well and everyone has shown that as the reason he’s better then Muckler.

Don’t mention he traded away all Karlsson friends, lost his mentor, Karlsson had like 5 coaches when he was here and was expected to carry a franchise on his back (which he did) but hey, team was giving up 40 shots a night or that Dorion drafted Karlsson and Murray takes all the credit - this is a debate that no one will win

 

[Tuna99]

Point is that Muckler never had to "assemble a team" here, he already had a cup contending roster assembled by Marshall Johnston.

You could argue he "won" 1 trade in his entire time here, and only 3 trades total could really be deemed a success, imo.

We can obviously agree to disagree, I'm not here to change your mind. I just honestly don't know what Muckler did in his time here to be viewed that highly. Guy was a complete tirefire for most of his tenure and refused to make a move that could put us over the top.

The Sens were respected under Muckler, they weren’t under Murray.

 

[BonkTastic]

We didn't win because of Muckler, we won in spite of him.

I'm slowly coming to the realization that this is a point that some people refuse to consider.

Correlation ≠ Causation.

 

[stempniaksen]

The Sens were respected under Muckler, they weren’t under Murray.

That could just as easily (and probably deservedly so) fall on Melnyk.

Not sure what that has to do with Muckler's god awful track record here (trades and draft) though.

 

[BondraTime]

I'm slowly coming to the realization that this is a point that some people refuse to consider.

Correlation ≠ Causation.

It seems to be the crux of this whole argument

 

[BonkTastic]

The Sens were respected under Muckler, they weren’t under Murray.

What kind of respect, and from whom, are we talking about here?

Again, and this seems to be a running theme in this thread - these are highly subjective claims.

 

[Silencio]

Looking back now, hockey in 2005 was pretty hilarious... Ottawa didn't want to keep Marian Hossa because a 3 year $18 million deal for a 40 goal/90 point forward was "too expensive"

....though I guess things haven't actually changed that much

 

[robsenz]

Everything you are arguing changed when the cap cam in. When we went to the finals Murray had Spezza 24, Heatley 25, Emery, 23, Fisher 27, vermette 25, Redden 30, Alfie was 34 but was still very elite. No one said the team Murray inherited was set up to succeed over a long time. Teams who make it to the finals tend to not have as much depth in the minors than teams who miss the playoffs. Murray had the opportunity to tear down a team and build it the way he wanted and it resulted in a very average tenure.

If you remember Muckler did sit back and enjoy our young guns until we lost each season to Toronto. Then he had to adjust the team because of the cap and we remained at the top even though we lost some of our elite talent.

Murray inherited a core of good players and did nothing with them just like Dorion.

Dorion did something in trading star players away for depth players. And will continue to do so come TDL.