Murray and Muckler

umma gumma

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Apr 8, 2005
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I said there were not many Hoffman's and Stone's and as shown by your list each draft resulted in that out side of 2005 which I also said.
I listed 24 players; I count at least 18 on there I feel that have as much impact as Hoffman, some more so. You talk like there were no players at all to be had.

Murray and Muckler were both bad GM's in their own way. Teams windows of winning aren't open forever and in Mucklers time even though he lost a lot of our top end talent he kept us one of the best teams in the league.
Its like Johnston, Gauthier and to a lesser extent Dudley, never existed in your world. Muckler could have sat on his ass ordering one turtleneck after another from ebay and we still would have stayed near the top.
When Murray took over he had more than enough time to turn this team around, did draft us some good players, but as a result of a poorly conceived plan took our roster all over the place. Murray was great at drafting 2nd, 3rd, and 4th liners lower in the draft but his coaching carousel, very bad trades, and signings shouldn't be over looked and has effected us as much as having a hollow farm team. The fact that most of the good players he brought in are now gone we are back to ground zero.
I know I didn't like the Paddock or Hartzburg hires as soon as they were announced but again you put it all down to one guy. Melnyk has absolutely no part to play in any of this? Divorce and lawsuits leading him to cut player salary? Dave Cameron ring a bell? Was he really going to let Murray (or Dorion for that matter) spend $2-3 million dollars on a good established coach?
 

Stylizer1

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Jun 12, 2009
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I listed 24 players; I count at least 18 on there I feel that have as much impact as Hoffman, some more so. You talk like there were no players at all to be had.


Its like Johnston, Gauthier and to a lesser extent Dudley, never existed in your world. Muckler could have sat on his ass ordering one turtleneck after another from ebay and we still would have stayed near the top.

I know I didn't like the Paddock or Hartzburg hires as soon as they were announced but again you put it all down to one guy. Melnyk has absolutely no part to play in any of this? Divorce and lawsuits leading him to cut player salary? Dave Cameron ring a bell? Was he really going to let Murray (or Dorion for that matter) spend $2-3 million dollars on a good established coach?

"Its like Johnston, Gauthier and to a lesser extent Dudley, never existed in your world."
Don't try and change the subject. At no point did I ever say anything about the roster before Muckler came here. Muckler had a job to do and at the time was no different from other teams trying to win a cup.

So out of 1440 players through 6 drafts you found 18 that are Hoffman/Stone type of players? Pretty slim odds in finding that great player, no?

If Murray did a better job then he might have invested more. Melnyk saw what good management could be for a small market. He obviously didn't want to spend to near the cap and have a bad team. Kind of like what is going on now.
 
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BondraTime

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Nov 20, 2005
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"Its like Johnston, Gauthier and to a lesser extent Dudley, never existed in your world."
Don't try and change the subject. At no point did I ever say anything about the roster before Muckler came here. Muckler had a job to do and at the time was no different from other teams trying to win a cup.

So out of 1440 players through 6 drafts you found 18 that are Hoffman/Stone type of players? Pretty slim odds in finding that great player, no?

If Murray did a better job then he might have invested more. Melnyk saw what good management could be for a small market. He obviously didn't want to spend to near the cap and have a bad team. Kind of like what is going on now.
I can't tell if this is a satire or serious.

Taken after the 1st from 2008-2014 (and I'd add quite a few names from the Muckler drafts)
2008
Atkinson
Spurgon
Josi
Stephan

2009
Lee
Hoffman
Ekholm
Barrie
Silfverberg
O'Rielly

2010
Stone
Gallagher
Klingberg
Faulk

2011
Palat
Gaudreau
Pageau
Trochek
Kucherov
Dzingel

2012
Slavin
Parayko
Gostibehere

2013
Guentzel

2014
Point

The odds haven't changed from when Muckler was here, he was just absolutely abysmal, while under Murray we were the best team at finding talent after the 1st. You could add Lehner as well if you wanted to count goalies.
 
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topshelf15

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May 5, 2009
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Again let the man RIP ,doesnt matter what happened ...Its more than obvious that he cared about the welfare of the team,city and its fans....EM just got in the way
 

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
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Ottabot City
I can't tell if this is a satire or serious.

Taken after the 1st from 2008-2014 (and I'd add quite a few names from the Muckler drafts)
2008
Atkinson
Spurgon
Josi
Stephan

2009
Lee
Hoffman
Ekholm
Barrie
Silfverberg
O'Rielly

2010
Stone
Gallagher
Klingberg
Faulk

2011
Palat
Gaudreau
Pageau
Trochek
Kucherov
Dzingel

2012
Slavin
Parayko
Gostibehere

2013
Guentzel

2014
Point

The odds haven't changed from when Muckler was here, he was just absolutely abysmal, while under Murray we were the best team at finding talent after the 1st. You could add Lehner as well if you wanted to count goalies.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter who Murray drafted because after this season the vast majority of them will be gone.

Muckler was bad with drafting and clearing his throat, Murray was bad with trades and media relations. :)
 

Tuna99

Registered User
Sep 26, 2009
14,716
6,804
I can't tell if this is a satire or serious.

Taken after the 1st from 2008-2014 (and I'd add quite a few names from the Muckler drafts)
2008
Atkinson
Spurgon
Josi
Stephan

2009
Lee
Hoffman
Ekholm
Barrie
Silfverberg
O'Rielly

2010
Stone
Gallagher
Klingberg
Faulk

2011
Palat
Gaudreau
Pageau
Trochek
Kucherov
Dzingel

2012
Slavin
Parayko
Gostibehere

2013
Guentzel

2014
Point

The odds haven't changed from when Muckler was here, he was just absolutely abysmal, while under Murray we were the best team at finding talent after the 1st. You could add Lehner as well if you wanted to count goalies.

I don’t think this is the ‘Who was better at drafting’ Argument, it’s who had the better club.

Murray was better at drafting, Muckler was better at everything else.
 

PoutineSp00nZ

Electricity is really just organized lightning.
Jul 21, 2009
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Ottawa
I don’t think this is the ‘Who was better at drafting’ Argument, it’s who had the better club.

Murray was better at drafting, Muckler was better at everything else.

Was he?

Biggest trade I remember him making was the bondra trade and that was an utter disaster.

The best thing he ever did was hire Murray.

The Smolinki trade was pretty solid too
 

BondraTime

Registered User
Nov 20, 2005
28,481
23,062
East Coast
I don’t think this is the ‘Who was better at drafting’ Argument, it’s who had the better club.

Murray was better at drafting, Muckler was better at everything else.
He was better at being given the better club, that's for sure. The fact that's what your making your hill is quite comical, it's not even relevant to comparing their GM resumes. It's things you do once you become GM, not what you were given and started with, that's not work by you, that's work by your predecessors.

No one would argue who had the better club, that's literally just looking at how they did, not what's being discussed at all, and if it is, it's an awful way to judge a GM. People are saying that he made bad decisions, drafting and player movement.

You could pull Joe Schmoo off the street and give him the team Muckler was given and they'd have won the presidents trophy, though no work of their own, like Muckler.
 
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PoutineSp00nZ

Electricity is really just organized lightning.
Jul 21, 2009
20,046
5,653
Ottawa
He was better at being given the better club, that's for sure. The fact that's what your making your hill is quite comical, it's not even relevant to comparing their GM resumes. It's things you do once you become GM, not what you were given and started with, that's not work by you, that's work by your predecessors.

No one would argue who had the better club, that's literally just looking at how they did, not what's being discussed at all, and if it is, it's an awful way to judge a GM. People are saying that he made bad decisions, drafting and player movement.

You could pull Joe Schmoo off the street and give him the team Muckler was given and they'd have won the presidents trophy, though no work of their own, like Muckler.

Muckler was handed a team skilled enough to win the Stanley Cup. They were young, unproven and a little soft. His job was to add the few pieces they needed to win a championship.

That was his one job. And he failed.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
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Was he?

Biggest trade I remember him making was the bondra trade and that was an utter disaster.

The best thing he ever did was hire Murray.

The Smolinki trade was pretty solid too

Biggest trade was clearly Hossa for Heatley, which was great for the first couple years, but obviously backfired in the long run. After that, yeah, I guess the terrible Bondra deal.
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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Muckler was handed a team skilled enough to win the Stanley Cup. They were young, unproven and a little soft. His job was to add the few pieces they needed to win a championship.

That was his one job. And he failed.

Not only did he fail, he set the franchise back years
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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If Muckler set the franchise back years (in his time Ottawa was an elite team, a destination team, full house, playoff every year).....,

....What did Murray do?

Try to fix the damage Muckler caused while dealing with an increasingly erratic owner.
 

Tuna99

Registered User
Sep 26, 2009
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Try to fix the damage Muckler caused while dealing with an increasingly erratic owner.

so if Murray couldn’t hire a decent coach the entire time he was here, or win a trade of his elite players the entire time he was here, or develop any of his top tauted prospects (Lazar, Cowen, Weircoche, Lehrer) and make more then 1 decent FA acquisition - I guess Muckler did that to him?

Murray was a horrible asset manager, the worst Ottawa has ever seen, literally beyond Rundlbald(which if he just took Tarasenko he would of been perfect) and Anderson I can’t think of a single asset he turned into something equivalent or better - he lost value on almost every move he made and some of them were straight up giveaways of top talent. Bishop, Spezza, Heatley, Fisher, Kelly, Vermette, the 1st round pick for the NYI D, Foligno.

And that’s why Ottawa sucked in Murray’s time here because he was a horrible asset manager and pro evaluator and not because amuckler didn’t draft well - Muckler wasn’t amazing at the draft but he got some decent players
 

PoutineSp00nZ

Electricity is really just organized lightning.
Jul 21, 2009
20,046
5,653
Ottawa
so if Murray couldn’t hire a decent coach the entire time he was here, or win a trade of his elite players the entire time he was here, or develop any of his top tauted prospects (Lazar, Cowen, Weircoche, Lehrer) and make more then 1 decent FA acquisition - I guess Muckler did that to him?

Murray was a horrible asset manager, the worst Ottawa has ever seen, literally beyond Rundlbald(which if he just took Tarasenko he would of been perfect) and Anderson I can’t think of a single asset he turned into something equivalent or better - he lost value on almost every move he made and some of them were straight up giveaways of top talent. Bishop, Spezza, Heatley, Fisher, Kelly, Vermette, the 1st round pick for the NYI D, Foligno.

And that’s why Ottawa sucked in Murray’s time here because he was a horrible asset manager and pro evaluator and not because amuckler didn’t draft well - Muckler wasn’t amazing at the draft but he got some decent players

Bishop you seem to be neglecting the fact that Murray acquired him for peanuts in the first place, so thats a wash. I will agree that mistakes were made in goal for Ottawa, might have been wiser to hold onto Bishop instead of Anderson.

Plus you seem to be ignoring the context for most of those trades. Spezza, Heatley and Fisher all wanted out. First round pick for Fish was fair at that point in his career. As was the second round pick for Kelly. Heatley fizzled out fast, so Michalek probably held more value overall after the trade. Spezza trade was bad, but Spezza himself also vetoed a much better trade to Nashville.

Vermette trade was fine. Leclair just couldn't stay healthy. The Nick Foligno trade is probably half the reason Ottawa's defense was ok until Methot left. Foligno is the better player at this point in his career, but Methot stabilized that defense in a serious way. That wasn't a bad trade at all.

The Turris trade was baller.

Muckler made a few good moves. The Smolinski trade. The first Comrie trade. Ummmm, the Salo Schaefer trade wasn't terrible, but Salo was the better player of the two. Aside from that, his trades run from meh to god awful. The Hossa Heatley swap . . . absolute franchise cracking move. Heater had a few good seasons, but Hossa loved the city and would have played here till he retired. Like 2 years ago. Another side effect from that trade? Fellow slovak and best buddy Zdeno Chara ended up leaving via free agency shortly there after.

How bout Peter Bondra? Brookes Laiche had a hell of a career and was exactly the kinda player Ottawa needed for years. ANother second round pick lost as well.

Picks and prospects constantly traded away for rentals and non impact players.

Muckler pissed away everything the franchise had, aside from Redden, Fisher and the big three.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,288
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Victoria
Muckler was Ottawa’s worst GM in my opinion, but we’ve had some excellent ones, and a few mediocre ones.

His drafting was terrible, his trades were terrible, he bungled one of the biggest FA moments the this franchise has ever had, and he essentially squandered the best chance this team had at winning multiple championships by year after year refusing to address the glaring weakness that our team had.

Yeah after year the entire hockey universe knew and talked about our need for grit/heart/ Gary Roberts injection into the arm of the team.

And Muckler got us Arneson, and an over the hill Bondra. I remember being so mad every trade deadline when Muckler refused to address team needs and we’d get beaten by the leafs again....

Going through a rebuild is easy peasie compared to year after year of being the best team in the regular season only to see us flop in the playoffs. The fact that Muckler refused to fix the obvious need over the course of 4-5 seasons is unforgivable.

Hahaha, I had to watch all of those playoff defeats with my Leaf fan friends out here in the West Coast, and I man was it hard.... these are much happier times for me!
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
51,157
9,904
so if Murray couldn’t hire a decent coach the entire time he was here, or win a trade of his elite players the entire time he was here, or develop any of his top tauted prospects (Lazar, Cowen, Weircoche, Lehrer) and make more then 1 decent FA acquisition - I guess Muckler did that to him?

Murray was a horrible asset manager, the worst Ottawa has ever seen, literally beyond Rundlbald(which if he just took Tarasenko he would of been perfect) and Anderson I can’t think of a single asset he turned into something equivalent or better - he lost value on almost every move he made and some of them were straight up giveaways of top talent. Bishop, Spezza, Heatley, Fisher, Kelly, Vermette, the 1st round pick for the NYI D, Foligno.

And that’s why Ottawa sucked in Murray’s time here because he was a horrible asset manager and pro evaluator and not because amuckler didn’t draft well - Muckler wasn’t amazing at the draft but he got some decent players

Classic result oriented thinking. I hope you don't play poker.
 
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umma gumma

Registered User
Apr 8, 2005
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(in his [Muckler] time Ottawa was an elite team, a destination team, full house, playoff every year).....,
Many have pointed out that anyone, even you and I, could have been GM in 2003 and we still would have won the President's trophy. Muckler had ZERO to do with the points you attribute to him: Ottawa being an elite team, a destination team, full house, playoff every year. That was all the work of others before him. We were all those things when he was hired.
Murray was a horrible asset manager, the worst Ottawa has ever seen, literally beyond Rundlbald(which if he just took Tarasenko he would of been perfect) and Anderson I can’t think of a single asset he turned into something equivalent or better - he lost value on almost every move he made and some of them were straight up giveaways of top talent. Bishop, Spezza, Heatley, Fisher, Kelly, Vermette, the 1st round pick for the NYI D, Foligno.

And that’s why Ottawa sucked in Murray’s time here because he was a horrible asset manager and pro evaluator and not because amuckler didn’t draft well - Muckler wasn’t amazing at the draft but he got some decent players
Of course you can't, the trees are blocking your view of the forest. Here is an easy one: he's big, he's bald...
 

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