Murray and Muckler

[BondraTime]

So he had a bad run in Edmton even though he took over the worst team in the NHL you still judge him on his results, as you did in Boston he took over a horrid team and turned it around.

But Murray takes over an elite team, can’t ever find a decent coach, team falls apart, attendance drops, the fans are apathetic, God left town and said management lied to him - so if Chirelli can turn around a bad team, how come Murray can’t maintain, improve or even turn around a good team?

No, unlike you I'm able to separate a teams record and results with judging a GM. You're the only one who seems to be using that. I'm using his body of work as a GM, you know, what his job entails.

I say he's been terrible because:

Reinhart for 16th (Barzel) and a 2nd
Hall for Larsson
Eberle for Strome
Wideman for a 6th
Wideman + 3rd for Petrovic
Strome for Spooner
Schultz for a 3rd
Lucic contract
Sekara contract
Koskinen contract

In 3 years. That's horrendous.

I see there's not much point in continuing this though, you can have it. You win

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

So he had a bad run in Edmton even though he took over the worst team in the NHL you still judge him on his results, as you did in Boston he took over a horrid team and turned it around.

But Murray takes over an elite team, can’t ever find a decent coach, team falls apart, attendance drops, the fans are apathetic, God left town and said management lied to him - so if Chirelli can turn around a bad team, how come Murray can’t maintain, improve or even turn around a good team?

Murray inherited a team with the best line in the NHL, a couple studs on defense and not much else. The cupboard was bare, used to acquire players like Bondra. Poor drafting led to a serious lack of depth.

His best defenseman fell off a cliff when his mom died, one third of his top line demanded a trade. He replenished the prospect pool with great drafting, which was about all he could do at that point.

 

[BonkTastic]

Murray inherited a team with the best line in the NHL, a couple studs on defense and not much else. The cupboard was bare, used to acquire players like Bondra. Poor drafting led to a serious lack of depth.

His best defenseman fell off a cliff when his mom died, one third of his top line demanded a trade. He replenished the prospect pool with great drafting, which was about all he could do at that point.

My dream job is literally any management position where my predecessors did all of the hard work to build a healthy business, and I get to not only take all of the credit for their hard work when the company they built without any input from me whatsoever performs well, but any failures on my part are glossed over because I just happened to be the guy in charge when all of their astute strategies and planning finally pays off.

If you guys see an ad for that job on ottawajobshop.com, can you send me a PM?

 

[Micklebot]

The Senators were not a good team for most of those picks thus higher drafting. The reason half those players got NHL games is because we sucked.

Murray got more talent out of the 2nd round picks and later than Muckler did out of the entire draft

In his first 4 drafts with his scouts, he picked up Stone, Hoffman, Silverberg, Pageau, Dzingel, Lehner, Smith. None of these guys are NHL players just because we sucked, none were drafted in the 1st round. What does Muckler have to show for his drafting, including his first rounders? Foligno, Mezsaros, Eaves, Greening, Condra, Lee, Gryba, Regin and Elliott. The difference isn't because of draft position.

 

[NorthCoast]

My dream job is literally any management position where my predecessors did all of the hard work to build a healthy business, and I get to not only take all of the credit for their hard work when the company they built without any input from me whatsoever performs well, but any failures on my part are glossed over because I just happened to be the guy in charge when all of their astute strategies and planning finally pays off.

If you guys see an ad for that job on ottawajobshop.com, can you send me a PM?

Your a couple years late and I don't think you can apply for the presidency on Ottawajobshop.

 

[NorthCoast]

Murray got more talent out of the 2nd round picks and later than Muckler did out of the entire draft

In his first 4 drafts with his scouts, he picked up Stone, Hoffman, Silverberg, Pageau, Dzingel, Lehner, Smith. None of these guys are NHL players just because we sucked, none were drafted in the 1st round. What does Muckler have to show for his drafting, including his first rounders? Foligno, Mezsaros, Eaves, Greening, Condra, Lee, Gryba, Regin and Elliott. The difference isn't because of draft position.

It's always astounded me that we have always been top 5 in the league when it comes to drafting, but suck so bad at trading. How can our amateur scouts be so good, but once a player can begin to grow facial hair it's like our scouting kryptonite.

Just to make sure I was not totally off, I just flipped through these pages to about the year 2000:

History of NHL trades by the Ottawa Senators - NHL Trade Tracker

What trades did we outright win that involved a player that stayed and was productive for several years.

I found two steals in the Turris and Spezza/Chara trades, a few wins in Lalime, Arneson, Comrie (the first time), Smolinski, Varada....and that's about it.

8 pages. 20 trades per page, so 160 trades. 7 wins, a lot of sideways stuff, and a lot of outright fails.

Is it too much to ask to be great at both drafting and trading? Maybe, but without the budget to cover mistakes...bad trades can hurt this team much more than a bad draft.

 

[umma gumma]

2012, 2013, 2014 were all dud years for Murray in the drafting department. To date Murray's best 5 draft picks for Ottawa are Karlsson, Hoffman, Zibanejad, Stone, Silfverberg. Murray had the benefit from having higher draft picks because we were not that good of a team. Stone is the only "star" remaining from Murray's tenure.

Serioulsy, you're not making any....sense.....at....all. Like none dude. No high draft picks were used to draft the players you listed, save for Zbad.
Karlsson 15th
Hoffman 130th
Stone 178th
Silfverberg 39th

And then you have 2015:
Chabot 18th
White 21st
Chlapik 48th
Wolanin 107th
Jaros 139th.

Why don't we look at the regime before Muckler:

Fisher 44th
Neil 161st
Havlat 26th
Kelly 94th
Prusek 164th
Volchenkov 21st
Vermette 55th
Gleason 23rd
Emery 99th
Laich 193rd

All drafted without the benefit of high picks. The more I look at these lists the more I shake my head; Muckler couldn't draft to save his life. Our cupboards were bare but its obvious you can't see the correlation between poor drafting and the effects that had on the big club. Why do you think Toronto sucked for so many years despite their payroll? Because they had a drafting record similar to Muckler's. You guys talk about Muckler's trades well those trades were possible because he had the pieces to make them, pieces others put in place for him to use and waste.

 

[Tuna99]

Wow, critzing Muckler for trades when you take the total of what Murray got for Heatley, Spezza, Fisher and you got zilch.

I don’t like to play the hypothetical game - but if Muckler traded Spezza, Heatley and Fisher he would of gotten a better return then Murray. Not even mentioning Bishop.

Not to mention acquiring Ryan which is has been bad - whatever the intention was Murray pinned himself into a corner and tried to trade his way out of it.

Also he through a 1st round pick for that bad Dman, traded for an injured goalie who never panned out.

There is a reason the Sens are aset poor because Murray made brutal brutal trades that put the franchise backwards, even the Folihno for Methot trade which is called even by some wasn’t equivalent value.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

I think most of have said both GM's are without faults, but my grades are Muckler gets a D-, Murray gets a C.

So Murray > Muckler.

We are not a free agent destination, the most important aspect of this team is drafting and developing, and Murray's management team killed Muckler's in that regard.

 

[umma gumma]

Wow, critzing Muckler for trades when you take the total of what Murray got for Heatley, Spezza, Fisher and you got zilch.

I don’t like to play the hypothetical game - but if Muckler traded Spezza, Heatley and Fisher he would of gotten a better return then Murray. Not even mentioning Bishop.

Not to mention acquiring Ryan which is has been bad - whatever the intention was Murray pinned himself into a corner and tried to trade his way out of it.

Also he through a 1st round pick for that bad Dman, traded for an injured goalie who never panned out.

There is a reason the Sens are aset poor because Murray made brutal brutal trades that put the franchise backwards, even the Folihno for Methot trade which is called even by some wasn’t equivalent value.

Oh sure but you'll ignore that the farm wasn't feeding the big club for several years, you know, the bloodline to every hockey team. Its all trades. So out of touch. And convenient since it fits your narrative.

 

[Tuna99]

Oh sure but you'll ignore that the farm wasn't feeding the big club for several years, you know, the bloodline to every hockey team. Its all trades. So out of touch.

If this team is so rich in prospects from Murray answer this question - when was the last full time bottom 6 forward developed and groomed by the team?

Only thing Muckler was out of touch with in his time in Ottawa was being a bottom feeder club who was an embarrassment to watch on an annual basis, questionable work ethic from the players who I witnessed quit on several coaches, all star players wanting out, complete disarray in the pro scouting department (which was never a thing before Murray took over), hyped prospect never working out and that’s a long list, brutal coaching hires.

The Sens have been a team giving up 40 shots for 10 years. It started under Murray and the team was so asset poor when Dorion took over we are in this mess now

 

[stempniaksen]

If this team is so rich in prospects from Murray answer this question - when was the last full time bottom 6 forward developed and groomed by the team?

Only thing Muckler was out of touch with in his time in Ottawa was being a bottom feeder club who was an embarrassment to watch on an annual basis, questionable work ethic from the players who I witnessed quit on several coaches, all star players wanting out, complete disarray in the pro scouting department (which was never a thing before Murray took over), hyped prospect never working out and that’s a long list, brutal coaching hires.

The Sens have been a team giving up 40 shots for 10 years. It started under Murray and the team was so asset poor when Dorion took over we are in this mess now

That's rich. What about the team being asset poor when Murray took over from Muckler? Or does that not count for some reason.

 

[umma gumma]

If this team is so rich in prospects from Murray answer this question - when was the last full time bottom 6 forward developed and groomed by the team?

Only thing Muckler was out of touch with in his time in Ottawa was being a bottom feeder club who was an embarrassment to watch on an annual basis, questionable work ethic from the players who I witnessed quit on several coaches, all star players wanting out, complete disarray in the pro scouting department (which was never a thing before Murray took over), hyped prospect never working out and that’s a long list, brutal coaching hires.


The Sens have been a team giving up 40 shots for 10 years. It started under Murray and the team was so asset poor when Dorion took over we are in this mess now

Yeah because he had the good fortune of others doing the work for him. He walked into a top squad WITH A GOOD FARM SYSTEM and FAILED.

Dude, how can you possibly believe anyone will take you seriously when you have no words for our farm system under Muckler, but then claim it was an issue under Murray. Your credibility in this thread is as sound as Pascal Leclair's health. No one is buying your shtick man. Even those that don't care for Murray understand how thin our assets were under Muckler.

 

[Tuna99]

Dude, how can you possibly believe anyone will take you seriously when you have no words for our asset management under Muckler, but then claim it was an issue under Murray. Your credibility in this thread is as sound as Pascal Leclair's health. No one is buying your shtick man. Even those that don't care for Murray understand how thin our assets were under Muckler.

Posts like this are just weak - the ‘everyone thinks you are stupid’ argument is what teenagers use against each other because they just really want a hug.

 

[umma gumma]

Posts like this are just weak - the ‘everyone thinks you are stupid’ argument is what teenagers use against each other because they just really want a hug.

I never said people think you're stupid. I just said no one is buying your argument. Comprehend much?

 

[Stylizer1]

Serioulsy, you're not making any....sense.....at....all. Like none dude. No high draft picks were used to draft the players you listed, save for Zbad.
Karlsson 15th
Hoffman 130th
Stone 178th
Silfverberg 39th

And then you have 2015:
Chabot 18th
White 21st
Chlapik 48th
Wolanin 107th
Jaros 139th.

Why don't we look at the regime before Muckler:

Fisher 44th
Neil 161st
Havlat 26th
Kelly 94th
Prusek 164th
Volchenkov 21st
Vermette 55th
Gleason 23rd
Emery 99th
Laich 193rd

All drafted without the benefit of high picks. The more I look at these lists the more I shake my head; Muckler couldn't draft to save his life. Our cupboards were bare but its obvious you can't see the correlation between poor drafting and the effects that had on the big club. Why do you think Toronto sucked for so many years despite their payroll? Because they had a drafting record similar to Muckler's. You guys talk about Muckler's trades well those trades were possible because he had the pieces to make them, pieces others put in place for him to use and waste.

No one is saying Muckler had a good draft record. The only thing that is evident is Murray had better scouts.

Once the cap was put in it made trading players a lot more difficult. When you look at the players taken outside the first round during Mucklers draft there weren't many hoffmans and Stones. 2005 was the year he really missed out.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

No one is saying Muckler had a good draft record. The only thing that is evident is Murray had better scouts.

Once the cap was put in it made trading players a lot more difficult. When you look at the players taken outside the first round during Mucklers draft there weren't many hoffmans and Stones. 2005 was the year he really missed out.

GM stands for General Manager, so that falls under General Management.

 

[umma gumma]

No one is saying Muckler had a good draft record. The only thing that is evident is Murray had better scouts.

Once the cap was put in it made trading players a lot more difficult. When you look at the players taken outside the first round during Mucklers draft there weren't many hoffmans and Stones. 2005 was the year he really missed out.

And boy did he ever miss out. A free star player and Muckler chooses a kid from high school.

And who hires/chooses the scouts?

Now that there is a cap in place drafting is more paramount than ever. Hate to see how we'd fair if Muckler was still running the while to deal with financial constraints in regards to trades all while having an owner that won't spend.

 

[umma gumma]

I feel like you need a snickers

 

[umma gumma]

When you look at the players taken outside the first round during Mucklers draft there weren't many hoffmans and Stones. 2005 was the year he really missed out.

Ok sure, lets have a look:

2002
Duncan Keith 54th
Frans Nielsen 87th

2003
Loui Eriksson 33rd
Patrice Bergeron 45th
Shea Weber 49th
Corey Crawford 52nd
David Backes 62nd
Jimmy Howard 64th
Joe Pavelski 205th
Dustin Byfuglien 245th

2004
Alex Edler 91st
Kris Versteeg 134th
Pekka Rinne 258th
Mark Streit 262nd

2005
Anze Kopitar
Marc Staal
Tukka Rask
(sorry, had to do it)
-------------
James Neal 33rd
Paul Stastny 44th
Kris Letang 62nd
Johnathan Quick 72nd
Ben Bishop 85th
Keith Yandle 105th

2006
Brad Marchand 71st

2007
P.K Subban 43rd
Wayne Simmonds 61st
Jamie Benn 129th

Huh. Would any of these suffice?

Just say it. His drafting was horrendous and it had a serious effect on the franchise's future. We were one of the youngest teams in the NHL but that began to shift the other way as there was no young talent to take up any spots. If we had any decent drafting during his tenure having some young talent to fill the roster just as our owner begins his cost cutting ways would have made the whole transition less painful.

 

[Stylizer1]

Ok sure, lets have a look:

2002
Duncan Keith 54th
Frans Nielsen 87th

2003
Loui Eriksson 33rd
Patrice Bergeron 45th
Shea Weber 49th
Corey Crawford 52nd
David Backes 62nd
Jimmy Howard 64th
Joe Pavelski 205th
Dustin Byfuglien 245th

2004
Alex Edler 91st
Kris Versteeg 134th
Pekka Rinne 258th
Mark Streit 262nd

2005
Anze Kopitar
Marc Staal
Tukka Rask
(sorry, had to do it)
-------------
James Neal 33rd
Paul Stastny 44th
Kris Letang 62nd
Johnathan Quick 72nd
Ben Bishop 85th
Keith Yandle 105th

2006
Brad Marchand 71st

2007
P.K Subban 43rd
Wayne Simmonds 61st
Jamie Benn 129th

Huh. Would any of these suffice?

Just say it. His drafting was horrendous and it had a serious effect on the franchise's future. We were one of the youngest teams in the NHL but that began to shift the other way as there was no young talent to take up any spots. If we had any decent drafting during his tenure having some young talent to fill the roster just as our owner begins his cost cutting ways would have made the whole transition less painful.

So the best year, there were 9 players out of 260 who are at the top?

The way teams are built today is not how it was done by most of the league before the cap. Nobody was saying "our farm team sucks", "Mucker is setting us to fail". The reason Toronto sucked for so long, they kept trying to buy a championship instead of drafting one. Ottawa had the luxury of being an expansion team and had 5 solid seasons of really good drafting and winning as a result from it. That's what made us the model franchise. When the Sens couldn't get over the hump they brought in Muckler and he did what was normal to win. He traded futures for players to help us win and did a bad job at picking one of those players on your list.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

View attachment 179055

The desperation?

Wtf m8. It should be h8.

 

[JungleBeat]

Murray was pretty bad as a GM. Constantly handing out bad contracts and not knowing when to trade players was what made the team mediocre from 2008 - 2016.

 

[umma gumma]

So the best year, there were 9 players out of 260 who are at the top?

You said there was nothing after the 1st round while Mickler was our GM. I made a list to show you there was.

The way teams are built today is not how it was done by most of the league before the cap. Nobody was saying "our farm team sucks", "Mucker is setting us to fail". The reason Toronto sucked for so long, they kept trying to buy a championship instead of drafting one.

They kept trying to buy one because their management was inept at drafting.

Ottawa had the luxury of being an expansion team and had 5 solid seasons of really good drafting and winning as a result from it. That's what made us the model franchise.

We were a model franchise because we had the right people in place at every level. We were a solid drafting team that didn't need money to compete.

Marian Hossa 12th
Magnus Arvedson 119th
Mike Fisher 44th
Chris Neil 188th
Martin Havlat 26th
Chris Kelly 94th
Martin Prusek 164th
Anton Volchenkov 21st
Antione Vermette 55th
Tim Gleason 23rd
Ray Emery 99th
Brooks Laich 193rd

All drafted without the benefit of being an expansion team with high picks.

When the Sens couldn't get over the hump they brought in Muckler and he did what was normal to win. He traded futures for players to help us win and did a bad job at picking one of those players on your list.

That's what we're all saying. And he didn't just trade the future he did nothing to help it. When you trade away your future it is inevitable that it will hit you really hard at some point. Can you imagine Muckler trying to deal with no future? And he did a bad job picking just a bout all his selections. Is it any wonder he hasn't found work since Ottawa?

Murray was pretty bad as a GM. Constantly handing out bad contracts and not knowing when to trade players was what made the team mediocre from 2008 - 2016.

No one is saying he was great. Most are saying Muckler was worse. If you don't think not having prospects in the pipeline to fill in the holes left behind by people you've traded (or won't pay) doesn't have a long lasting affect on a team you are sorely mistaken. The saying is around the league a GM needs 5 years to make his mark. Its no wonder 5 years after Muckler was hired we had very little graduating from the farm.

 

[Stylizer1]

You said there was nothing after the 1st round while Mickler was our GM. I made a list to show you there was.


They kept trying to buy one because their management was inept at drafting.



We were a model franchise because we had the right people in place at every level. We were a solid drafting team that didn't need money to compete.

Marian Hossa 12th
Magnus Arvedson 119th
Mike Fisher 44th
Chris Neil 188th
Martin Havlat 26th
Chris Kelly 94th
Martin Prusek 164th
Anton Volchenkov 21st
Antione Vermette 55th
Tim Gleason 23rd
Ray Emery 99th
Brooks Laich 193rd

All drafted without the benefit of being an expansion team with high picks.



That's what we're all saying. And he didn't just trade the future he did nothing to help it. When you trade away your future it is inevitable that it will hit you really hard at some point. Can you imagine Muckler trying to deal with no future? And he did a bad job picking just a bout all his selections. Is it any wonder he hasn't found work since Ottawa?


No one is saying he was great. Most are saying Muckler was worse. If you don't think not having prospects in the pipeline to fill in the holes left behind by people you've traded (or won't pay) doesn't have a long lasting affect on a team you are sorely mistaken. The saying is around the league a GM needs 5 years to make his mark. Its no wonder 5 years after Muckler was hired we had very little graduating from the farm.

I said there were not many Hoffman's and Stone's and as shown by your list each draft resulted in that out side of 2005 which I also said.

Murray and Muckler were both bad GM's in their own way. Teams windows of winning aren't open forever and in Mucklers time even though he lost a lot of our top end talent he kept us one of the best teams in the league. When Murray took over he had more than enough time to turn this team around, did draft us some good players, but as a result of a poorly conceived plan took our roster all over the place. Murray was great at drafting 2nd, 3rd, and 4th liners lower in the draft but his coaching carousel, very bad trades, and signings shouldn't be over looked and has effected us as much as having a hollow farm team. The fact that most of the good players he brought in are now gone we are back to ground zero.