Murray and Muckler

[mcnorth]

I've done it before, but today I went through the Sens draft history and looked at who was available and who was chosen since Muckler took over. Now I know some of you really hate these kinds of discussions of hits and misses, so please feel free to exit the thread now, but I think it's worth looking at and discussing as simple trivia but also to inform our opinions re: effectiveness.

It is incredible how bad we did drafting under Muckler. He and his staff totally failed to identify and select talent. I went in taking a look at who they picked and then asked myself who in the next 30 or so picks could they, or should they, have selected instead.

If you do the same under Murray's tenure, you really get an appreciation of just how good the drafting has been under his watch, and it really, at least for me, improved my optimism about guys like Puempel and some of the young guys we haven't seen make the jump just yet but who are nearing that age where guys do start to make an impression after a couple of years in the minors.

The wasteland years, the coach's graveyard, really is a result of Muckler's poor drafting. We often look at trades or free agent acquisitions as a measure of a GM, and that's fair enough, and we know Muckler was trying to 'win now'. but even then, drafting where he was, he and his staff really failed to reload for half a decade. And when you don't reload, you have to rebuild. The 2002 draft is a real horror show.

So I guess my point is - thanks Mr. Murray! It takes a while when your team fails to add a player from the draft for five years,but we're recovering.

(mods: I looked for the B. Murray thread but couldn't find one. Please merge if there's a thread I missed. Thanks.)

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[StefanW]

I've done it before, but today I went through the Sens draft history and looked at who was available and who was chosen since Muckler took over. Now I know some of you really hate these kinds of discussions of hits and misses, so please feel free to exit the thread now, but I think it's worth looking at and discussing as simple trivia but also to inform our opinions re: effectiveness.

It is incredible how bad we did drafting under Muckler. He and his staff totally failed to identify and select talent. I went in taking a look at who they picked and then asked myself who in the next 30 or so picks could they, or should they, have selected instead.

If you do the same under Murray's tenure, you really get an appreciation of just how good the drafting has been under his watch, and it really, at least for me, improved my optimism about guys like Puempel and some of the young guys we haven't seen make the jump just yet but who are nearing that age where guys do start to make an impression after a couple of years in the minors.

The wasteland years, the coach's graveyard, really is a result of Muckler's poor drafting. We often look at trades or free agent acquisitions as a measure of a GM, and that's fair enough, and we know Muckler was trying to 'win now'. but even then, drafting where he was, he and his staff really failed to reload for half a decade. And when you don't reload, you have to rebuild.

So I guess my point is - thanks Mr. Murray! It takes a while when your team fails to add a player from the draft for five years,but we're recovering.

(mods: I looked for the B. Murray thread but couldn't find one. Please merge if there's a thread I missed. Thanks.)

Yup. It definitely pays to view everything that BM has accomplished so far in the context of having a bare cupboard for prospects down in Bingo when he took over. The "mini rebuild" a few years back worked exceptionally well for the team because we players in the minors ready to step up to the big club.

I guess the knock is that aside from Karlsson he has not drafted the elite guys you need to compete. This has more to do with having mid to late round draft positions IMO, but I am sure someone will bring this point up later in the thread.

 

[mcnorth]

That 'top end' talent thing is interesting. I went in looking for that, and you look at who is scoring in the NHL and there's just not that many young guys scoring. Aside, of course, from the guys taken in the first five picks. So you can knock Murray for not finding that 'gem' but I'd argue that the diamonds just aren't out there.

In 07 JOB was a miss as a #1 when he could have had Subban, Simmonds, or Benn. In 09 he could have taken Marcus Foligno, in 2011 I guess maybe Boone Jenner is a miss. But there just hasn't been impact players available when Murray was picking. I don't think he's failed at all to identify them - they just weren't there. Perhaps time will tell as players develop and the old guard fades, but at this point I don't think that's fair to say Murray hasn't found top six talent... b/c no one has who hasn't had the luxury of a top five pick.

Which, of course, begs the question... where do you finish if you really want to rebuild? The talent is clearly at the top half of the first round and it's slim pickings everywhere else.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Murray basically saved us from turning to the Oilers: Edmonton is the cautionary tale for what happens when you draft like ass for a long time in the salary cap era

I think that's the biggest thing: times changed and what Muckler had done to try to get us to the Stanley Cup ended up costing a lot more due to the changing context. The salary cap and changes to UFA really wrecked what he had built.

I feel we are all a bit too hard on Muckler sometimes: his tenure saw us become a powerhouse and we went to SCF. He certainly paid through the nose to get us there but the whole thing collapsed with the lockout.

 

[Stylizer1]

Murray basically saved us from turning to the Oilers: Edmonton is the cautionary tale for what happens when you draft like ass for a long time in the salary cap era

I think that's the biggest thing: times changed and what Muckler had done to try to get us to the Stanley Cup ended up costing a lot more due to the changing context. The salary cap and changes to UFA really wrecked what he had built.

I feel we are all a bit too hard on Muckler sometimes: his tenure saw us become a powerhouse and we went to SCF. He certainly paid through the nose to get us there but the whole thing collapsed with the lockout.

We are only a #1 goalie away from that.

 

[Stylizer1]

That 'top end' talent thing is interesting. I went in looking for that, and you look at who is scoring in the NHL and there's just not that many young guys scoring. Aside, of course, from the guys taken in the first five picks. So you can knock Murray for not finding that 'gem' but I'd argue that the diamonds just aren't out there.

In 07 JOB was a miss as a #1 when he could have had Subban, Simmonds, or Benn. In 09 he could have taken Marcus Foligno, in 2011 I guess maybe Boone Jenner is a miss. But there just hasn't been impact players available when Murray was picking. I don't think he's failed at all to identify them - they just weren't there. Perhaps time will tell as players develop and the old guard fades, but at this point I don't think that's fair to say Murray hasn't found top six talent... b/c no one has who hasn't had the luxury of a top five pick.

Which, of course, begs the question... where do you finish if you really want to rebuild? The talent is clearly at the top half of the first round and it's slim pickings everywhere else.

Exactly.

We are fighting to be an average team.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

We may still have some of our young guys turn in to top end talent, it's not out of the question.

 

[Micklebot]

We are only a #1 goalie away from that.

Well, a #1 goalie and 6 top 10 picks in the last 7 years, including 3 consecutive 1 OA.

What makes the Oilers so deplorable is despite the high picks, the elite talent up front, they still suck to an epic proportion. We're not a great team because we haven't been in a position to draft elite talent.

 

[Back in Black]

Muckler was told to get to the Finals at all costs, and he lost his job for it, and in the process emptied the cupboard.

Murray inherited a Stanley Cup Finals team and had to rebuild the Farm team.

My choice, thank Murray for his farm team rebuild, and move in a new direction, just like they thanked Muckler.

This rebuild has been going on almost a decade now.

 

[pepty]

I The wasteland years, the coach's graveyard, really is a result of Muckler's poor drafting. We often look at trades or free agent acquisitions as a measure of a GM, and that's fair enough, and we know Muckler was trying to 'win now'. but even then, drafting where he was, he and his staff really failed to reload for half a decade. And when you don't reload, you have to rebuild. The 2002 draft is a real horror show.

So I guess my point is - thanks Mr. Murray! It takes a while when your team fails to add a player from the draft for five years,but we're recovering.

(mods: I looked for the B. Murray thread but couldn't find one. Please merge if there's a thread I missed. Thanks.)

The first part of your post regarding the improvement of the Sens drafting under Murray compared to Muckler is reasonable.However it is quite a leap to go on to your second point, that all of Murray's failures and shortcomings can be laid at the door of Mucklers drafting. The team started its dive midway though the season following the trip to the Finals.. Teams that draft poorly will generally lose their edge over time not plummet.

And though Murray's drafting is definitely better than Mucklers, it is arguable if it
was better than than his predecessors, same for his trades and deadline deals.Drafting is important but there is more to being a GM than drafting.

Muckler was told to get to the Finals at all costs, and he lost his job for it, and in the process emptied the cupboard.

Murray inherited a Stanley Cup Finals team and had to rebuild the Farm team.

My choice, thank Murray for his farm team rebuild, and move in a new direction, just like they thanked Muckler.

This rebuild has been going on almost a decade now.

True enough, Muckler was hired to win now, nevertheless his drafting could have been better.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Exactly.

We are fighting to be an average team.

We are an average team that seems to be slowly getting better

Losing Spezza was a serious setback

You know what the real problem is in Edmonton right now? The fact that management doesn't have the balls to tell the fans "We screwed up after getting to the SCF and haven't drafted well until MacT became the GM. Considering where we are now and where we hope to get to it's going to take at least 5, 6 or 7 years to improve".

Obviously it's a hard sell for fans who've been cheering for a joke of an organization and for the young, highly skilled players who are wasting away some key developmental years in that wasteland. Still, I think it's the right thing to do. Hell, I think they might even want to do a proper rebuild: talk to all the big name players, see who wants to be here for the long haul and trade away those who don't want to be in order to kick start the rebuild. The joke is to think that they've been rebuilding when they haven't: rebuilding implies there's a strategy behind what the team is doing and the Oilers had no idea what they were doing.

Murray had a clearly defined plan and stuck to it but hit some setbacks in Alfie and Spezza bailing on the team.

 

[StefanW]

We are only a #1 goalie away from that.

No we are not. The Oilers are the meme for all that is bad amongst hockey teams not because they missed the playoffs once or twice, but because they stacked up with top shelf talent and yet manage to continue to miss the playoffs year after year after year.

We have missed the playoffs a grand total of one year in a row.

 

[mcnorth]

The first part of your post regarding the improvement of the Sens drafting under Murray compared to Muckler is reasonable.However it is quite a leap to go on to your second point, that all of Murray's failures and shortcomings can be laid at the door of Mucklers drafting. The team started its dive midway though the season following the trip to the Finals.. Teams that draft poorly will generally lose their edge over time not plummet.

That's fair enough. The epic nosedive in the standings, the exodus of talent (Redden, Heatley, Emery, and some of the rentals who we should have kept e.g. Cullen) didn't have to happen and are on management. The poor coaching hires have to be on Murray's report card. I agree, and I don't want to imply that Muckler is responsible for those. That said, it certainly would have put the organization in a better place if we still had a decent farm system that allowed Murray and coaching more options to make moves on and off the ice. But we certainly didn't have to go from SCF to missing the play-offs in, what, 24 months.

 

[mcnorth]

Murray had a clearly defined plan and stuck to it but hit some setbacks in Alfie and Spezza bailing on the team.

I think this has been a major theme in Murray's time here and one worth thinking about, especially since we all seem to think Murray is such a loyal kind of guy. Why do rentals always leave (other than money of course)? Why did Spezza, Alfie, Heatley, Redden all want to walk when on Murray's watch? Then there's Lehner rumbling and Murray making a move with a guy like Bishop... Prince now...

For a guy who we perceive as kind and reasonable, he hasn't been manager enough to manage those tough situations. And they happen everywhere in sport, but they've 'managed' to screw up our teambuilding.

 

[playasRus]

What's the happenings with Prince?

 

[mcnorth]

What's the happenings with Prince?

Just rumblings that he's unhappy and wants to be moved. That's what the internet has said, anyway. FWIW.

 

[StefanW]

Just rumblings that he's unhappy and wants to be moved. That's what the internet has said, anyway. FWIW.

It was based on a tweet by his sister or something, wasn't it?

 

[mcnorth]

It was based on a tweet by his sister or something, wasn't it?

http://the6thsens.com/2014-articles/has-shane-prince-asked-for-a-trade.html

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Muckler was told to get to the Finals at all costs, and he lost his job for it, and in the process emptied the cupboard.

Murray inherited a Stanley Cup Finals team and had to rebuild the Farm team.

My choice, thank Murray for his farm team rebuild, and move in a new direction, just like they thanked Muckler.

This rebuild has been going on almost a decade now.

The Senators were in the cup finals in 2007, 7 years ago. They didn't start the rebuild until the deadline in 2011 when they traded Fisher, Kovalev, Kelly and whatever else. Which means they've been in full rebuild mode since the 2011-2012 season.

2011-2012
2012-2013
2013-2014
2014-2015

4 years. lets say 5 if u include the 2010-2011 season, which I wouldn't since the plan was to make the playoffs that year before the wheels came off completely.

People saying the Sens have been rebuilding for 7 years, or in your case, nearly a decade, is balderdash.

Besides, how long did it take the Penguins to rebuild, or the Hawks? How are the Avalanche doing this season? How long was it between finals appearances for the Kings? This isn't a 4 or 5 year process unless a team gets very very lucky.

 

[supsens]

Muckler left a team with 3 super stars up front, so trying to act like somehow it was his the team that was a failure is a bit of a stretch.
Murray or the people in charge have managed to run off all the high end talent and get little in return, trading away your third liners and overpaid depth players isn't all that much of a rebuild. The contracts he gave out were too big and his team missed the playoffs so he was forced to dump those guys without the playoff revenue.
The star players have all decided to leave and he made some not so good trades for two of them. The third they burned and sent packing.
Trading prospects and a top 10 pick for Bobby Ryan is far from a rebuild, I see no direction or method to this. They seem to be building a 7-12th place team.
But what do i know, I build houses not NHL teams.

 

[Micklebot]

Muckler was told to get to the Finals at all costs, and he lost his job for it, and in the process emptied the cupboard.

Murray inherited a Stanley Cup Finals team and had to rebuild the Farm team.

My choice, thank Murray for his farm team rebuild, and move in a new direction, just like they thanked Muckler.

This rebuild has been going on almost a decade now.

He lost his job because of incompetent drafting and not getting a half decent starting goalie once the team decided to move on from Hasek.

Had Muckler done any of the following, he'd probably have lasted until the end of his contract:

- Drafted Kopitar/Staal, or even Bourdon over baby faced Albino Lee.
- Chosen Chara over Redden
- Signed or traded for a half decent goalie instead of the Gerber.

Maybe had he gotten decent value for Havlat it would have helped too. Florida had been rumoured to be shopping Luongo, and finally moved him to Vancouver, Anderson was unproven but available with great AHL numbers, but instead of finally fixing the gaping hole that had plagued the team since, well forever, he signs Gerber.

Nobody should have a problem with Muckler using assets to give the team a better chance in the playoffs, the problem was him a) not addressing team needs, Bondra... Really??? abd b) making brutal choices with prime assets (see Havlat trade, Lee pick, letting Chara walk for nothing).

It's fine to not like the job Murray has done, but Muckler was a whole new level of bad.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Muckler left a team with 3 super stars up front, so trying to act like somehow it was his the team that was a failure is a bit of a stretch.
Murray or the people in charge have managed to run off all the high end talent and get little in return, trading away your third liners and overpaid depth players isn't all that much of a rebuild. The contracts he gave out were too big and his team missed the playoffs so he was forced to dump those guys without the playoff revenue.
The star players have all decided to leave and he made some not so good trades for two of them. The third they burned and sent packing.
Trading prospects and a top 10 pick for Bobby Ryan is far from a rebuild, I see no direction or method to this. They seem to be building a 7-12th place team.
But what do i know, I build houses not NHL teams.

And next to nothing else. That was the problem.

 

[Minister of Offence]

Muckler left a team with 3 super stars up front, so trying to act like somehow it was his the team that was a failure is a bit of a stretch.
Murray or the people in charge have managed to run off all the high end talent and get little in return, trading away your third liners and overpaid depth players isn't all that much of a rebuild. The contracts he gave out were too big and his team missed the playoffs so he was forced to dump those guys without the playoff revenue.
The star players have all decided to leave and he made some not so good trades for two of them. The third they burned and sent packing.
Trading prospects and a top 10 pick for Bobby Ryan is far from a rebuild, I see no direction or method to this. They seem to be building a 7-12th place team.
But what do i know, I build houses not NHL teams.

Very few stars stay in one place their whole career. When they do
Leave, you need to have replacements or you fall.

And if you're about to fall, you get desperate and try quick fixes.

I have no way of knowing but if I was asked to bet many I'd say this desperation comes from the owner.
The owner mandates the gm and the gm goes to work. There are undoubtedly many GMs and coaches workin with unrealistic mandates

Murray hasn't had a perfect run, hell, every gm has its misses.

But being a gm that can't draft is like being an English student that can't spell.

Hockey teams are in the business of manufacturing goods. It is unequivocally important as manufacturing talent is cheaper and allows for more control. It's the root of the org.

A gm that can create a draft and development system that works will always get a job in the NHL because there's always a few, like john muckler, that can't.

The rest comes easier if you have homegrown developed talents

 

[TonySoprano11]

And what has all this great drafting gotten us? All our most promising prospects under Murray are playing here and now. Which of these prospects is lighting up the league? Which one of these Murray draftees, aside from Karlsson, is being coveted around the league and making other franchises fanbases clamoring to somehow get them from us?

What do we have to show for it? A sub .500 team? There is SO much more to GMing then drafting. In fact, I would say that drafting is probably one of the least most important things.

People on this board will just never figure that out. It's always about the new shiny around here.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Muckler was told to get to the Finals at all costs, and he lost his job for it, and in the process emptied the cupboard.

Murray inherited a Stanley Cup Finals team and had to rebuild the Farm team.

My choice, thank Murray for his farm team rebuild, and move in a new direction, just like they thanked Muckler.

This rebuild has been going on almost a decade now.

I wouldn't say Muckler emptied the farm, he just couldn't draft anyone worth a ****. In fact he typically refused to fork over what he needed to for anything useful at the deadline and always tried to hit the bargain bin for plugs like Arnason.