MSG permit extension hits a major snag
- Thread starter Fenway
- Start date
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
yup, watched it from a garage over on Howard Hughes. It's pretty mind blowing. The ad revenue they'll generate with it is going to help a ton
LadyStanley
Registered User
Especially during F1 race
Part of that is because Queens wasn't a separate city before unification. It was a county. And only the five westernmost towns in that county were annexed by the city. The remaining twins to the east were still part of Queens County, but not the Borough of Queens, for a year after the consolidation. It was quickly realized that was unworkable, so those eastern towns were split off into Nassau County. Conversely, the Bronx (originally New York City's annexed district, officially) was made a separate borough but was still part of New York County until 1914, when Bronx County was established, making it the newest county (and smallest by area) in New York State.
Brooklyn had already grown to annex all of Kings County before consolidation, so all of Brooklyn was already under a single municipal government and county court system before 1898. That's not true for any of the other outer boroughs. Big part of why it has such a strong identity.
Also to note about Busch is that it's heavy "mountain" branding (I'm sure anyone over a certain age remembers the epic jingle) was an attempt to ape the look and feel of Coors, which was getting a major name at the time but was still only available west of Texas (remember the plot of Smokey and the Bandit?)
KevFu
Registered User
I just like the "creative logistics" to achieve the goal. It's just awesome to bypass the MLB rules by naming it after yourself and launching a brand after yourself to get the result of a stadium named after your beer.
That's what John Grisham writes novels about. (BTW, as a Mets fan who posts on message boards a lot, the word "writes" is hard for me to type. Keeps coming out "Wrights").
It reminds me of when Casey Stengel was a player, manager and GM of a team and he got a better offer from another team. The owner told him he couldn't leave. So he went back to his office and....
- released player Casey Stengel
- fired manager Casey Stengel
- turned his is letter of resignation as GM.
It was built on state land, they didn't need the approval from the Town or County.
Gotchya, Do they still need to rely on the Town for certain services to the arena?
Mayor wants to extend permit 10 years however Dolan has to agree to work with MTA.
Why do I feel like the EASIEST, and most cost-efficient is for the city/state/MTA/whoever to build Dolan a new arena NEAR the area and then trade buildings with Dolan just like they are playing Monopoly?
nypost.com
Why do I feel like the EASIEST, and most cost-efficient is for the city/state/MTA/whoever to build Dolan a new arena NEAR the area and then trade buildings with Dolan just like they are playing Monopoly?
NYC recommends MSG gets a new permit — but James Dolan must cooperate with MTA rebuilding plans
The Department of City Planning recommended Monday that Madison Square Garden get a new permit to continue operating above Penn Station — with a major caveat: Owner James Dolan will have to coopera…
nypost.com
Foxy
Registered User
- Oct 5, 2020
- 133
- 215
I have a feeling nothing happens now for another 10 years. Amtrak just got a new station, LIRR just got a facelift, so I can't see either of them as desperate to spend billions on a new station again. The MTA has already said they want to spend zero dollars buying property from MSG and with Hochul and Vornado (the owners of 2 Penn) backing away from their Penn Station redesign plan, the triggering of the 30 percent clause won't happen for years, if ever.Mayor wants to extend permit 10 years however Dolan has to agree to work with MTA.
Why do I feel like the EASIEST, and most cost-efficient is for the city/state/MTA/whoever to build Dolan a new arena NEAR the area and then trade buildings with Dolan just like they are playing Monopoly?
NYC recommends MSG gets a new permit — but James Dolan must cooperate with MTA rebuilding plans
The Department of City Planning recommended Monday that Madison Square Garden get a new permit to continue operating above Penn Station — with a major caveat: Owner James Dolan will have to coopera…
In 8 years, if Gateway is underway and Metro North customers are flooding the station, then you sit down and actually try to work out a real deal. Not some last minute attempt at lets make a deal.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
Mayor wants to extend permit 10 years however Dolan has to agree to work with MTA.
Why do I feel like the EASIEST, and most cost-efficient is for the city/state/MTA/whoever to build Dolan a new arena NEAR the area and then trade buildings with Dolan just like they are playing Monopoly?
NYC recommends MSG gets a new permit — but James Dolan must cooperate with MTA rebuilding plans
The Department of City Planning recommended Monday that Madison Square Garden get a new permit to continue operating above Penn Station — with a major caveat: Owner James Dolan will have to coopera…
To me, this just underscores the hollowness of the permit threat. They ran into a wall with how far they wanted to go with the Penn Station stuff. Now they're just trying to buy another 10 years in the hopes that Dolan sells the team before it expires and they're working with someone else by then. What mechanisms do they have to claim that he's not cooperating and what are the thresholds? One person's cooperating is another person's not. A claim that he isn't will just get tied up in court.
You're right about something: at the very least that the easiest and most cost-effective solution here is to give Dolan land for a new stadium and help some with the construction costs, even if it's just clearing the land. The optics of that, though, are another story.
Obviously current functionality is the most important point to address moving forward. Though it may be worth pointing out from a righting a “historic wrong” perspective, that the current MSG has now stood on that site longer than the original above ground Penn Station did.
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Agreed on what constitutes "cooperating". It is VERY subjective. There will be someone on the council/commission/whatever who expects Dolan to meet with them everyday for 8 hours per day until they figure it out. When he refuses, they will threaten to pull permit and it will get tied up in court.
Crease
Chief Justice of the HFNYR Court
- Jul 12, 2004
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Foxy
Registered User
- Oct 5, 2020
- 133
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Its official as of this morning's meeting. MSG gave close to nothing away to get 10 more years.
www.otdowntown.com
City Planning Commission Votes to Extend MSG Permit to Sit Atop Penn Station For 10 More Years
The City Planning Commission voted July 12 that Madison Square Garden be given a ten-year extension of its special permit to operate a large arena ato...
www.otdowntown.com
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
Its official as of this morning's meeting. MSG gave close to nothing away to get 10 more years.
City Planning Commission Votes to Extend MSG Permit to Sit Atop Penn Station For 10 More Years
The City Planning Commission voted July 12 that Madison Square Garden be given a ten-year extension of its special permit to operate a large arena ato...
More evidence of a toothless threat.
Foxy
Registered User
- Oct 5, 2020
- 133
- 215
Yeah lol, "Move the Trucks and dress up the façade a little bit." I know I'd get much worse from my local planning board just trying to build a fence.
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BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
What were people expecting?
Billions of dollars in that spot, brings in tons more revenue for the city and (I assume there isn't a waiver) taxes to the city/state and the only real benefit was potentially to make travelling through that station on public transit slightly better in some immeasurable way for the people that transit through the station while creating a transit issue on game/event days for some other station(s)?
ETA: Since I've been old enough to pay attention, I've always lived in sales tax/tourist heavy areas where sales/use taxes are more important due to lack of income taxes. I may overvalue bringing people into a spot to spend money.
Billions of dollars in that spot, brings in tons more revenue for the city and (I assume there isn't a waiver) taxes to the city/state and the only real benefit was potentially to make travelling through that station on public transit slightly better in some immeasurable way for the people that transit through the station while creating a transit issue on game/event days for some other station(s)?
ETA: Since I've been old enough to pay attention, I've always lived in sales tax/tourist heavy areas where sales/use taxes are more important due to lack of income taxes. I may overvalue bringing people into a spot to spend money.
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Pretty much. I have said it many times. Every few years some politician who is trying to make a name for themselves brings it up, a few people rally behind it. Nothing happens, the politician loses an election and fades back into obscurity.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
Yep. And it's like those politicians and people in NYC (and even in this thread) want Dolan to make a bunch of sacrifices out of a sense of civic duty. While that would be nice, it's not really something that can realistically be expected.
Realistically though how many times can they keep renovating MSG? At the end of this permit it will be 65 years old.
cptjeff
Reprehensible User
The latest renovation was a total rebuild down to the frame done in stages. Actually a really remarkable bit of engineering. It's essentially a 10 year old arena, not a 50 year old arena.
Also, NYC denying the permit is almost certainly going to regarded by the courts as a regulatory taking- that is, a regulation so onerous that it deprives the owner of all viable financial benefit from the property. In those cases, governments have to compensate the owner the full value of the economic loss, basically just as if they had seized the property under eminent domain. Dolan really doesn't have to give them anything here. The permit is very clearly intended to serve no legitimate governmental objective, just as a tool to extract some level of control over a private property, and courts will not be fooled.
End of the day, if NYC wants MSG out, they are going to have to buy them out, either with an in-kind replacement or to the tune of tens of billions of dollars.
Ah ok, I thought it was more along the lines of the 1992 renovation which I was around for. I figure that by the time this next permit comes to an end, they will be looking at another renovation so maybe they could work something out where the city/state kicks in part of the difference between a new arena and renovating the existing one.
City Budget Office: Madison Square Garden’s tax break doesn’t make sense
Madison Square Garden’ s enormous tax break should be eliminated because James Dolan is unlikely to move his teams from the New York City cash cow, according to a new report from the Independ…
www.bostonherald.com
The tax break, which began prior to Dolan’s reign as MSG warden, has cost New York City roughly $1 billion, according to the government agency, which it called a conservative estimate. Dolan is now saving about $43 million per year on property taxes.
The reason for the tax break — which was established in 1982 after threats from the Knicks and Rangers that they’d leave New York City — is outdated, the IBO determined.
“The current location of MSG in Midtown Manhattan and directly above Penn Station, creates optimal conditions for revenue generation that would be impossible to replicate were MSG to move to New Jersey or another major metropolitan area,” read the 30-page report titled, ‘An Examination of the Madison Square Garden Property Tax Exemption.’ “Furthermore because of league restrictions, it would likely prove challenging to co-locate the Rangers and Knicks outside of the New York area to meet both the National Hockey League (NHL) and National Basketball Association (NBA) league requirements, which are designed to prevent sports franchises within leagues from competing in the same regional markets.”
In other words, Dolan is excused from paying taxes because of an unrealistic scenario. The latest attempt to axe the exemption is a budget proposal from Democrats in the state senate. But Gov. Kathy Hochul, whose reelection campaign benefitted from major donations and support from the Dolan family, was noncommittal on the subject.
”What’s been proposed by a senator is certainly something we look at, a lot of ideas are proposed,” Hochul told Good Day New York. “I just want to make sure that we’re doing the right thing with respect to MSG.”
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