MSG permit extension hits a major snag

[93LEAFS]

I don't think anyone disagrees with the concept of robust rail access to arenas. Heck, with the opening of UBS, all the major league sports indoor arenas in the Boston–Washington corridor are either proximate to a major rail hub, or a short connecting train ride away.

TD: atop North Station
UBS: Belmont Park station for trains to points west, and Elmont station along the LIRR main line.
MSG: atop Penn Station
Prudential: A two-block walk to Newark Penn Station (which can be traversed by enclosed pedestrian bridges).
Wells Fargo: End of the Broad Street subway running to Center City (and if the 76ers arena plan does go through, it would be adjacent to Jefferson Station at Market East)
Capital One: Atop the Gallery Place/Chinatown station (a major transfer station) two stops from Union Station.

The issue here is that MSG is actively impeding the functioning of the rail station, unlike all the others.

(Also, am I the only one that finds it funny that all of the aforementioned arenas are name sponsored by banks. Even MSG is "Madison Square Garden presented by Chase" these days.)

Oh, I saw the issue. Was just adding that is the ideal set-up and the MSG situation is a mess. I'm sure it will be figured out because it would be stupid to lose a roughly 20k arena in the middle of Manhattan and I would think it'd be almost impossible to find land on Manhattan island to build elsewhere.

Among those stadiums are only TD and MSG like Toronto in the sense that not only are they at a major point for the local subway system, but also the major connecting hub for the suburban train system. I know Penn and North stations are the major train stations in their city not only for subway, but inter-city rail. Interestingly, Toronto is also sponsored by a bank (Bank of Nova Scotia)

 

[Jersey Fresh]

MSG is a shitty old arena and Penn Station is a piss-stained mess. That’s without even broaching its immediate environs around the area.

They should move if it means infrastructure improvements to Penn Station, the place is just a mess. I feel sorry for any tourists trying to navigate that place and think that’s the best the city can do.

 

[ColinM]

MSG is a shitty old arena and Penn Station is a piss-stained mess. That’s without even broaching its immediate environs around the area.

They should move if it means infrastructure improvements to Penn Station, the place is just a mess. I feel sorry for any tourists trying to navigate that place and think that’s the best the city can do.

OMG thank you for pointing this part out. Last Spring I made a trip to New York via the Newark Airport and then on to Penn Station via the Amtrack. It was a very over whelming experience doing this with 2 kids with you. Not to mention all the other tourists I was with were just as confused navigating the Amtrack / Train Station. It was enough to make want to hire a taxi to take me back to the airport.

 

[Tawnos]

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am a long-time friend of a woman who is Jim Dolan's sister and and they are estranged to put it kindly.

She told me that her brother firmly believes MSG is more important to New York than Penn Station.

Everything goes back to 1960 when it was decided to move MSG to Penn Station from 8th Av and 50th St and the leases of who got what became complicated. The one thing they were certain of didn't happen - that passenger railroads would cease to exist. That was a major miscalulation.

Dolan was given a 10 year extension to figure out a plan and here we are.

My friend told me her brother came to despise the LIRR when they were younger growing up in Oyster Bay and that clouds his thinking.

The 10-year extension was for *both sides* to figure out a plan palatable to the other. The city wants to do something with Dolan's property. It does not belong to the city. It's incumbent on the city to either figure out something that works for him or use the methods at their disposal to get him off the land. The permit isn't a good lever to do that, because he can just let the land "lie fallow" if they don't work with him. Eminent domain is the only real threat they have and that threat is crazy expensive for the city.

I'm not trying to say that Dolan is a wonderful fellow. I don't doubt anything you say about his motivations and character. In fact, I wish the facts of this situation weren't what they are because Dolan sucks. None of that matters. The city has to make proposals that are reasonable to Dolan, whether or not the city or any of the rest of us consider them reasonable from our points-of-view.

And honestly, it sounds like they've actually made quite a bit of progress on that front. Crunch time is coming though.

Also, "I am a long-time friend of a woman who is Jim Dolan's sister"... couldn't you have just said "I am a long-time friend of Jim Dolan's sister"?

 

[oknazevad]

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am a long-time friend of a woman who is Jim Dolan's sister and and they are estranged to put it kindly.

She told me that her brother firmly believes MSG is more important to New York than Penn Station.

Everything goes back to 1960 when it was decided to move MSG to Penn Station from 8th Av and 50th St and the leases of who got what became complicated. The one thing they were certain of didn't happen - that passenger railroads would cease to exist. That was a major miscalulation.

Dolan was given a 10 year extension to figure out a plan and here we are.

My friend told me her brother came to despise the LIRR when they were younger growing up in Oyster Bay and that clouds his thinking.

I'm not surprised that arrogant schmuck thinks an arena that can, even on a day with both teams having games and a show in the theater, serve at most 43,418 people (max capacity for hockey, basketball, and the theatre combined) is more important than the average daily ridership of 277,000 (combined Amtrak, NJ Transit and LIRR figures for 2017).

Oh, I saw the issue. Was just adding that is the ideal set-up and the MSG situation is a mess. I'm sure it will be figured out because it would be stupid to lose a roughly 20k arena in the middle of Manhattan and I would think it'd be almost impossible to find land on Manhattan island to build elsewhere.

Among those stadiums are only TD and MSG like Toronto in the sense that not only are they at a major point for the local subway system, but also the major connecting hub for the suburban train system. I know Penn and North stations are the major train stations in their city not only for subway, but inter-city rail. Interestingly, Toronto is also sponsored by a bank (Bank of Nova Scotia)

Somehow I completely forgot to put Barclays as well. Transfer point for 7 subway routes, connected to the LIRR's Atlantic Terminal. iIn fact, it sits atop the Terminal's yard, hence the original working name of Atlantic Yards. (Also, it's... named for a bank)

Of those, North Station, Penn Station, Atlantic Terminal, and Newark Penn are major commuter stations, and only Atlantic Terminal doesn't also have intercity trains (though North Station is only one Amtrak route, the Downeaster that runs to Portland, Maine. South Station is Amtrak's main station there, as it is the terminal for the lines going south and west of Boston.

OMG thank you for pointing this part out. Last Spring I made a trip to New York via the Newark Airport and then on to Penn Station via the Amtrack. It was a very over whelming experience doing this with 2 kids with you. Not to mention all the other tourists I was with were just as confused navigating the Amtrack / Train Station. It was enough to make want to hire a taxi to take me back to the airport.

You think it's bad now, you should have seen it before the Moynihan Train Hall extension opened. Or even before the mid-90s renovations.

 

[KevFu]

Yes. Also move UBS Arena to Switzerland.

Madison Square isn't the naming rights sponsor of the Garden, that was the location of it for 45 years.

I guess "50th & 8th Garden" didn't have the same ring to it when they built a new arena in 1925.

 

[Tawnos]

Madison Square isn't the naming rights sponsor of the Garden, that was the location of it for 45 years.

I guess "50th & 8th Garden" didn't have the same ring to it when they built a new arena in 1925.

I would argue that Madison Square Garden *is* the naming rights sponsor of the arena, since MSG is a brand as much as a building.

 

[KevFu]

I would argue that Madison Square Garden *is* the naming rights sponsor of the arena, since MSG is a brand as much as a building.

It is now, but that certainly wasn't the case in 1925.

It's like the jokes about college conference names. The Atlantic 10 is neither Atlantic, nor 10.

 

[Tawnos]

It is now, but that certainly wasn't the case in 1925.

It's like the jokes about college conference names. The Atlantic 10 is neither Atlantic, nor 10.

I would say that keeping the name is 1925 is what turned it into a brand.

 

[KevFu]

I would say that keeping the name is 1925 is what turned it into a brand.

Most definitely. If they named it something new and geographically accurate like "Midtown Station Garden" then almost 100 years later, would the Islanders and Devils be playing on MSG Network?

Okay, bad example!

 

[BKIslandersFan]

MSG is a shitty old arena and Penn Station is a piss-stained mess. That’s without even broaching its immediate environs around the area.

They should move if it means infrastructure improvements to Penn Station, the place is just a mess. I feel sorry for any tourists trying to navigate that place and think that’s the best the city can do.

Demolish MSG, move Rangers to Hamilton and Knicks to Seattle. Win win.

 

[Kane One]

Most definitely. If they named it something new and geographically accurate like "Midtown Station Garden" then almost 100 years later, would the Islanders and Devils be playing on MSG Network?

Okay, bad example!

Well MSG would still be short for Midtown Station Network so yes!

My point earlier though was very sarcastic and more of a “who cares lol” type of response.

Citi Field and Busch Stadium are the only stadiums where I don’t mind the naming rights. Everything else is gross.

The story behind Busch Stadium rights is pretty interesting though if you want to look it up.

 

[Fenway]

As a Red Sox fan, I will always be grateful that Bud Selig moved heaven and earth to prevent the Dolan family from buying the Red Sox in 2001. They were the highest bidder.....

 

[patnyrnyg]

The simplest way of explaining it is that there is simply one less "layer" of government for NYC.

The Islanders had to deal with TOWN of Hempstead, and Nassau COUNTY trying to get projects done, so they switched from Hempstead to Elmont and to get a project done with those two layers of government.

COUNTY government does not exist for the five boroughs of New York City. So Dolan is only dealing with the NYC government, not Manhattan AND New York County.

The consolidation of the five boroughs into the unified New York City government in 1898 was one of the smartest maneuvers in the history of government. (There are county courts in different boroughs, but that's it).

Isn't Elmont part of the Town of Hempstead?

 

[patnyrnyg]

MSG is a shitty old arena and Penn Station is a piss-stained mess. That’s without even broaching its immediate environs around the area.

They should move if it means infrastructure improvements to Penn Station, the place is just a mess. I feel sorry for any tourists trying to navigate that place and think that’s the best the city can do.

Penn Station is for commuters, not for tourists. Unless you want to consider locals coming in to be tourists for the day as tourists.

When I was working in Manhattan, there was a learning curve for navigating the place. That is never going to change.

 

[patnyrnyg]

OMG thank you for pointing this part out. Last Spring I made a trip to New York via the Newark Airport and then on to Penn Station via the Amtrack. It was a very over whelming experience doing this with 2 kids with you. Not to mention all the other tourists I was with were just as confused navigating the Amtrack / Train Station. It was enough to make want to hire a taxi to take me back to the airport.

On the Rangers board there is a stickied thread about NYC. Had you posted there and I saw it, I would have advised AGAINST doing what you did. If you are flying to Newark (wise choice as it is MUCH better to use Newark than JFK, or Laguardia) better off getting taxi/uber into Manhattan. The extra money is worth it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I would say that keeping the name is 1925 is what turned it into a brand.

Incidentally, there were actual plans for a nationwide chain of Madison Square Garden-branded arenas in the 1920s.

The one that got off the ground was Boston Garden, which originally opened under the name “Boston Madison Square Garden”.

When Tex Rickard died of a sudden heart attack in 1929, he was well on his way to starting up arenas in Chicago (“Chicago Madison Square Garden” was already incorporated) and Philadelphia. I have seen references to similar concepts under development in Baltimore and New Jersey, and according to Wikipedia there were 3 more cities identified as MSG sites.

Had Rickard survived, the MSG corporation would look very different today. And for that matter so would the NHL. He was very high on hockey as a winter anchor for the schedule at these buildings, so one can assume the NHL would have had more like an Original Ten Era. And that would have had major domino effects on the present state of the league.

 

[aqib]

It is now, but that certainly wasn't the case in 1925.

It's like the jokes about college conference names. The Atlantic 10 is neither Atlantic, nor 10.

Boston Garden's original name was "Boston Madison Square Garden" It was built by Tex Ricard who founded the Rangers and built the previous Madison Square Garden before this one. Madison Square Garden has been a global brand for generations, mainly for boxing. My dad told me he knew Madison Square Garden growing up in Pakistan without TV because of boxing.

 

[Foxy]

Incidentally, there were actual plans for a nationwide chain of Madison Square Garden-branded arenas in the 1920s.

The one that got off the ground was Boston Garden, which originally opened under the name “Boston Madison Square Garden”.

When Tex Rickard died of a sudden heart attack in 1929, he was well on his way to starting up arenas in Chicago (“Chicago Madison Square Garden” was already incorporated) and Philadelphia. I have seen references to similar concepts under development in Baltimore and New Jersey, and according to Wikipedia there were 3 more cities identified as MSG sites.

Had Rickard survived, the MSG corporation would look very different today. And for that matter so would the NHL. He was very high on hockey as a winter anchor for the schedule at these buildings, so one can assume the NHL would have had more like an Original Ten Era. And that would have had major domino effects on the present state of the league.

I'm not sure if the new concert venue in Vegas is officially named MSG Sphere or just Sphere. I've seen both names on Twitter, but the world may finally get a chain of MSG branded venues.

 

[aqib]

Brooklyn was certainly taken care of when the NYC Subway was built out but Queens was neglected by comparison.

Robert Moses had no use for Brooklyn and that became clear when the Dodgers wanted to move to roughly where Barclays Arena is today. He told O'Malley it would be better to move to Queens where Shea Stadium was built and we all know what happened.

It wasn't just about the Dodgers (although it was mentioned in the article that Brooklyn on its own probably would have built them a stadium). It also said that in the 80s when companies were leaving NYC and going to the suburbs, Brooklyn might have been able to compete for them as a separate city.

Also, Brooklyn is the only one that still talks about where they would rank in they were a separate city. You never hear people from Queens saying "if Queens was a separate city it would be the 4th largest city in America" like you do people from Brooklyn.

 

[Tawnos]

Incidentally, there were actual plans for a nationwide chain of Madison Square Garden-branded arenas in the 1920s.

The one that got off the ground was Boston Garden, which originally opened under the name “Boston Madison Square Garden”.

When Tex Rickard died of a sudden heart attack in 1929, he was well on his way to starting up arenas in Chicago (“Chicago Madison Square Garden” was already incorporated) and Philadelphia. I have seen references to similar concepts under development in Baltimore and New Jersey, and according to Wikipedia there were 3 more cities identified as MSG sites.

Had Rickard survived, the MSG corporation would look very different today. And for that matter so would the NHL. He was very high on hockey as a winter anchor for the schedule at these buildings, so one can assume the NHL would have had more like an Original Ten Era. And that would have had major domino effects on the present state of the league.

There was another thing that happened in 1929, so who knows how it would've turned out. Definitely a fun alternate timeline to think about though. Hell, maybe if he lives another 11 years, John Kilpatrick doesn't burn the paid-off mortgage for MSG in the Cup in 1940 and the Rangers never get cursed. I don't consider 1994 to have broken the curse, but just to have overcome it temporarily.

 

[Fenway]

Incidentally, there were actual plans for a nationwide chain of Madison Square Garden-branded arenas in the 1920s.

The one that got off the ground was Boston Garden, which originally opened under the name “Boston Madison Square Garden”.

When Tex Rickard died of a sudden heart attack in 1929, he was well on his way to starting up arenas in Chicago (“Chicago Madison Square Garden” was already incorporated) and Philadelphia. I have seen references to similar concepts under development in Baltimore and New Jersey, and according to Wikipedia there were 3 more cities identified as MSG sites.

Had Rickard survived, the MSG corporation would look very different today. And for that matter so would the NHL. He was very high on hockey as a winter anchor for the schedule at these buildings, so one can assume the NHL would have had more like an Original Ten Era. And that would have had major domino effects on the present state of the league.

Boston Madison Square Garden Club - Boston Madison Square Garden Club

Who Are We? Welcome to the official website of the Boston Madison Square Garden Club, one of the only clubs of its kind! The “Garden Club” caters to an elite group of 300+ sports and entertainment enthusiasts in and around the Boston area. We pride ourselves on accommodating our members to the...

bmsgc.org

 

[KevFu]

Well MSG would still be short for Midtown Station Network so yes!

My point earlier though was very sarcastic and more of a “who cares lol” type of response.

Citi Field and Busch Stadium are the only stadiums where I don’t mind the naming rights. Everything else is gross.

The story behind Busch Stadium rights is pretty interesting though if you want to look it up.

Oh, no need to look it up! I'm a Mets fan, but one of the first baseball books I read as a kid was Whitey Herzog's book... where the dynamic between Whitey and Gussie Busch was featured, and Whitey told that story of the stadium name.

For those also reading: Cardinals owner Gussie Busch (not sure which one, there were four), owned both the Cardinals and Anheiser-Busch Brewery. He wanted to name the new stadium Budweiser Stadium, but baseball wouldn't let him, saying they can't name their stadium after alcohol products.

So Gussie Busch named it Busch Stadium after himself... THEN two years later, launched Busch Beer from his brewery.

 

[TheWestender]

Incidentally, there were actual plans for a nationwide chain of Madison Square Garden-branded arenas in the 1920s.

The one that got off the ground was Boston Garden, which originally opened under the name “Boston Madison Square Garden”.

When Tex Rickard died of a sudden heart attack in 1929, he was well on his way to starting up arenas in Chicago (“Chicago Madison Square Garden” was already incorporated) and Philadelphia. I have seen references to similar concepts under development in Baltimore and New Jersey, and according to Wikipedia there were 3 more cities identified as MSG sites.

Had Rickard survived, the MSG corporation would look very different today. And for that matter so would the NHL. He was very high on hockey as a winter anchor for the schedule at these buildings, so one can assume the NHL would have had more like an Original Ten Era. And that would have had major domino effects on the present state of the league.

Rickard was also in the process of building the Madison Square Garden Bowl in Queens - an outdoor boxing arena holding over 70000 - before he died. Part of me wonders if we'd have seen outdoor hockey games long before they became the norm if he'd survived.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Rickard was also in the process of building the Madison Square Garden Bowl in Queens - an outdoor boxing arena holding over 70000 - before he died. Part of me wonders if we'd have seen outdoor hockey games long before they became the norm if he'd survived.

I want to say it was discussed for Yankee Stadium at one point. And Rickard was trying to build a big new stadium for the Giants as well. I think it likely would have resulted in outdoor hockey eventually, especially with that era’s fascination with novelty events.