MSG permit extension hits a major snag

[patnyrnyg]

Not entirely a different animal. I am no expert on the politics of NYC but I do understand there are often multiple different government agencies to try and work through. As pointed out above you have the MTA, Amtrak (and through Amtrak the federal government), plus NYC itself. Building almost anywhere else on Manhattan is likely to involve in other government agencies (who knows - Harbour Authority, various environmental or building permits, etc).

So what's the proposal here. That Dolan just go build a new arena on his own? He's going to fight that tooth and nail. He sunk one billion dollars just 10 years ago on upgrades. What would the cost of a new MSG plus land cost? I can't begin to imagine it.

Then the idea is Dolan get subsidized somehow to build a new arena. WHat government agency is going to want to give money to a billionaire sports owner? I can't begin to imagine that either.

While there are different departments in NYC with different responsibilities, they are all under the guise of the NYC government. Their employees are all paid from the NYC Treasury. Different on Long Island. For example, Nassau County controls the police department. Some of the incorporated villages and towns within Nassau County do have their own police force, but most of the County is patroled by the NCPD. The Town of Hempstead is a completely different government. Yes, they are within Nassau County, but they are not on the same hierarchy. There is also The Town of Oyster Bay, and the Town of North Hempstead all within Nassau County. Nassau Coliseum was in the confines of The Town of Hempstead. The Town of Hempstead of example handles sanitation within its borders. Nassau County has nothing to do with it. Each also run public parks, pools, beaches for example as well. At a Town of Hempstead pool, you will not see lifeguards employed by Nassau County and vice versa.

I am flabbergasted that Dolan has painted himself into a corner.

He was given 10 years to figure out a solution but he believes that Madison Sq Garden is more important than Pennsylvania Station.

It seems ludicrous to even suggest this but the Rangers and Knicks could be facing playing at MSG with only 2500 seats...........

He owns the building. The city has had 10 years to buy it from him and make arrangements, but have not done so. Yes, Dolan is petty and spiteful enough to limit attendance to 2500 until he gets a deal he wants.

 

[varsaku]

I am flabbergasted that Dolan has painted himself into a corner.

He was given 10 years to figure out a solution but he believes that Madison Sq Garden is more important than Pennsylvania Station.

It seems ludicrous to even suggest this but the Rangers and Knicks could be facing playing at MSG with only 2500 seats...........

Penn station is much bigger economic driver for the city of New York than MSG could ever be. I don't think he is fully understanding the situation he is in now. I was flabbergasted how horrible penn station is when it has to handle so many passengers. Honestly, NYC should be more harsh and take over the property, that station has been long overdue for a rebuild.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Penn station is much bigger economic driver for the city of New York than MSG could ever be. I don't think he is fully understanding the situation he is in now. I was flabbergasted how horrible penn station is when it has to handle so many passengers. Honestly, NYC should be more harsh and take over the property, that station has been long overdue for a rebuild.

Way easier said than done.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Way easier said than done.

My brother is an attorney. Said eminent domain in NY is pretty easy to prove/enforce relative to other places. The issue will be the cost. He mentioned it when the city was looking to take over the mechanic shops near Citi Field to develop the area. No idea if laws have changed since.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Another factor in this is MSG is hemorrhaging money on the construction of The Sphere in Las Vegas.

So far it is $1.2 billion over budget, at a total cost of $2.4 billion and counting. To have the funding to even finish it they sold off the majority ownership of Tao Group (huge restaurant/club conglomerate that runs basically every restaurant and night club on The Strip) for $550 million. MSG also spun off The Sphere as a separate legal entity to shield the rest of the MSG portfolio from it's costs.

Until The Sphere opens and starts generating consistent revenue, MSG is leveraged to the max and cant afford any other projects.

 

[Tawnos]

My brother is an attorney. Said eminent domain in NY is pretty easy to prove/enforce relative to other places. The issue will be the cost. He mentioned it when the city was looking to take over the mechanic shops near Citi Field to develop the area. No idea if laws have changed since.

Yeah, definitely easy to do if you're willing to pay. If the cost of enforcing eminent domain weren't somewhere over $6B (probably a low estimate, comes from the Empire State Development people) it would have happened already.

 

[Tawnos]

I am flabbergasted that Dolan has painted himself into a corner.

He was given 10 years to figure out a solution but he believes that Madison Sq Garden is more important than Pennsylvania Station.

It seems ludicrous to even suggest this but the Rangers and Knicks could be facing playing at MSG with only 2500 seats...........

MSG is is significantly more important to Dolan than Penn Station is. That's all that matters here.

I think the framing of your post is, at best, disingenuous. The city and the state have also had those 10 years to come up with a plan that Dolan can work with. Both sides are to blame... but deadlines are great motivators so we'll see what actually happens.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Here is an article from 2008. Implies talks about moving MSG had started and an agreement couldn't be reached and they went with the reno.

Not mentioned in the article, but the renovation began in the Summer of 2011.

Madison Square Garden considers alternate plan to Farley move

An article by Eliot Brown in today's on-line edition of The New York Observer said that "representatives of Madison Square Garden were curiously

www.cityrealty.com

Here is an article from 2006:

Plan to Move Garden Augurs Change for Midtown (Published 2006)

The developer hired to expand Penn Station also has a plan to move the New York arena and build five towers.

www.nytimes.com

"....There are political obstacles. Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg is displeased with the owners of the Garden, who ran a multimillion-dollar ad campaign against him last year that helped kill his plan for the $2.2 billion football stadium on the Far West Side. And state officials are moving quickly with the simpler Moynihan Station plan, because Gov. George E. Pataki wants a groundbreaking before he leaves office...."

"...Mr. Roth and Mr. Ross were selected last year to build Moynihan Station and a major block of space for retail, office or residential use. The developers, who would pay the state $313.8 million and a yet-to-be negotiated annual fee, would also transfer about 1 million square feet of unused development rights from the Farley building across Eighth Avenue to the northeast corner of 33rd Street for two residential towers.

Then, earlier this year, the two men struck a tentative deal with James L. Dolan, whose family controls Cablevision, the Garden, the Knicks and the Rangers. By moving the Garden, the developers would gain the enormously valuable right to build three new skyscrapers above Penn Station, with a mix of apartments, offices, a hotel and stores, while generating up to $75 million a year in property taxes for the city. The Garden, which has considered renovating, would get a modern, egg-shaped arena with many more luxury boxes...."

 

[patnyrnyg]

I am flabbergasted that Dolan has painted himself into a corner.

He was given 10 years to figure out a solution but he believes that Madison Sq Garden is more important than Pennsylvania Station.

It seems ludicrous to even suggest this but the Rangers and Knicks could be facing playing at MSG with only 2500 seats...........

If Penn Station was that important, and MSG was a huge obstacle to fixing MSG, then the city and state should have got a deal done 15 years ago.

 

[Boris Zubov]

My brother is an attorney. Said eminent domain in NY is pretty easy to prove/enforce relative to other places. The issue will be the cost. He mentioned it when the city was looking to take over the mechanic shops near Citi Field to develop the area. No idea if laws have changed since.

Not doubting you, but Dolan, if he wanted to dig in, would put up a hell of a fight. A lot of those corrupt junk yards near Shea Stadium probably didn't want the city looking too closely at their operations so it was easier to get them to cut bait.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Not doubting you, but Dolan, if he wanted to dig in, would put up a hell of a fight. A lot of those corrupt junk yards near Shea Stadium probably didn't want the city looking too closely at their operations so it was easier to get them to cut bait.

Oh, I agree. As far as the legality of the city taking the building Dolan would likely lose. But, the negotiation on price he could tie up forever. The shops at Citi Field are not worth nearly as much to anyone.

For those unfamiliar with that area, almost all of them have been torn down. No idea what is being done. Few years ago talk was it will be used as long-term parking for Laguardia while it gets it's facelift, but I think that is just about done.

 

[rsteen]

Yeah, definitely easy to do if you're willing to pay. If the cost of enforcing eminent domain weren't somewhere over $6B (probably a low estimate, comes from the Empire State Development people) it would have happened already.

Almost anything is easy if you're willing to pay...enough. Was that $6B estimate from the last go-around in 2013, or is it current?

 

[varsaku]

Oh, I agree. As far as the legality of the city taking the building Dolan would likely lose. But, the negotiation on price he could tie up forever. The shops at Citi Field are not worth nearly as much to anyone.

For those unfamiliar with that area, almost all of them have been torn down. No idea what is being done. Few years ago talk was it will be used as long-term parking for Laguardia while it gets it's facelift, but I think that is just about done.

I know they plan on gentrifying that area and build a new soccer specific stadium for NYCFC.

New kings of Queens: NYCFC unveils spectacular images of planned stadium

MLS club New York City FC hopes to have the $780m stadium project completed in time for the team to make it their home for the 2027 MLS season.

www.espn.com

 

[Tawnos]

Almost anything is easy if you're willing to pay...enough. Was that $6B estimate from the last go-around in 2013, or is it current?

IIRC that study came out in 2021.

 

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Another factor in this is MSG is hemorrhaging money on the construction of The Sphere in Las Vegas.

So far it is $1.2 billion over budget, at a total cost of $2.4 billion and counting. To have the funding to even finish it they sold off the majority ownership of Tao Group (huge restaurant/club conglomerate that runs basically every restaurant and night club on The Strip) for $550 million. MSG also spun off The Sphere as a separate legal entity to shield the rest of the MSG portfolio from it's costs.

Until The Sphere opens and starts generating consistent revenue, MSG is leveraged to the max and cant afford any other projects.

It's all about leverage.Mr.Dolan started that process two months ago.He will have an option
and it's not in NYC proper.Interesting times ahead.

 

[Boris Zubov]

It's all about leverage.Mr.Dolan started that process two months ago.He will have an option
and it's not in NYC proper.Interesting times ahead.

Of course he has options outside of NYC, but I imagine he would only use them for leverage in negotiations with the city. Unless you have a verified source that says otherwise.

Either way it's hard to take anything seriously that suggests MSG is relocating at all, especially off the island of Manhattan.

 

[jkrdevil]

The Rangers aren’t the Rangers if they aren’t in Manhattan. A lesser extent for the Knicks as there isn’t another team on each side of the city. But still both team’s image is wrapped up in being NYC proper and specifically being in Manhattan.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

It's all about leverage.Mr.Dolan started that process two months ago.He will have an option
and it's not in NYC proper.Interesting times ahead.

True, but he'll die before he leaves Manhattan.

Not only are the Rangers ans Knicks identities tied to Manhattan (as ar their core fan base), he makes a mint on all the concerts that come through MSG. He wouldn't get nearly as many non sports dates in another borough or in Jersey

 

[oknazevad]

Oh, I agree. As far as the legality of the city taking the building Dolan would likely lose. But, the negotiation on price he could tie up forever. The shops at Citi Field are not worth nearly as much to anyone.

For those unfamiliar with that area, almost all of them have been torn down. No idea what is being done. Few years ago talk was it will be used as long-term parking for Laguardia while it gets it's facelift, but I think that is just about done.

That's where NYCFC is building their new stadium.

 

[oknazevad]

True, but he'll die before he leaves Manhattan.

Not only are the Rangers ans Knicks identities tied to Manhattan (as ar their core fan base), he makes a mint on all the concerts that come through MSG. He wouldn't get nearly as many non sports dates in another borough or in Jersey

Yeah, there are already arenas in Brooklyn and the suburbs on either side. There's really no alternate location that doesn't already have an arena. it's got to be somewhere in Manhattan. So I'm calling shenanigans on vague claims of non-NYC locations. Actually, I'm calling more than shenanigans. I'm calling bullshit.

 

[Fenway]

Unlike his father Charles, Jim Dolan has not shown any ability to mend fences in NYC.

To get the occupancy permit from the City of New York Dolan has to give up something and I am not sure he knows how to do that.

 

[rsteen]

IIRC that study came out in 2021.

In that case it's probably closer to 8B in 2023 dollars.

 

[Tawnos]

In that case it's probably closer to 8B in 2023 dollars.

More like $6.75B

 

[patnyrnyg]

True, but he'll die before he leaves Manhattan.

Not only are the Rangers ans Knicks identities tied to Manhattan (as ar their core fan base), he makes a mint on all the concerts that come through MSG. He wouldn't get nearly as many non sports dates in another borough or in Jersey

The Knicks and Rangers core fan base comes from all over the area. Manhattan's population last I checked was less than Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx and Nassau County.

That's where NYCFC is building their new stadium.

gotchya. Sucks as I love parking near there for Mets games.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Can't the Rangers and Knicks play at Izod for 3 or 4 years while MSG V is built?