Most Overrated Player by The Hockey Media?

[Big Phil]

My god, who comes up with this stuff? It's not even just Makar, it's just such a random selection of players when no one would take anyone that wasn't Crosby/Ovechkin. Don't even bother throwing McDavid in to make it interesting.

I agree, but is their current age a factor? Ovechkin in 35 this September. MacKinnon will be 25. Ovechkin will end up with the better career, we know this, but do you take 5ish years of Ovechkin or 15 of MacKinnon?

I dunno maybe we look at things differently but it's nobodys fault that the Leafs played 7/8ths of the season and it was stopped is it?

It's only obscure in the sense that it's unusual, there was nothing really different abut the 70 games (out of the possible 70 that the Leafs played) than any other regular season.

Mathews playoff resume is actually pretty good when you put it into context as well, 2 series against Boston who are stingy in the playoffs and then another against the eventual SC champs in Washington.

The guy is a stud plain and simple and still getting better.

I agree, I am a Leaf fan, so I was impressed with him for sure. I just would have liked to see him break Vaive's team record and then carry the team in the playoffs.

 

[Maag80]

Datsyuk, as great as he was, didn't have any 100 point seasons at all. The same about Kovalchuk. How many seasons did it take to score 100 points for Kane?

I'm ready to be beaten now, but is not Datsyuk sometimes overrated on this forum?
I think it is described in several threads that Datsyuk is Detroit's best player ever, or Russia's best or ....... The best ever defensively or the most technical ever?
I have a hard time seeing that greatness in Pavel D.

 

[The Macho King]

Again, just responding to someone else who set the parameters and declared Stamkos first 4 years better than Matthews first 4 years.

I mean - considering the scoring environment, I don't think that's wrong. You also have two Rockets (and a 60 goal season) against a *prime Ovi*.

 

[Dingo]

Jonathan Toews, by a quite large margin, it was quite funny when media was calling him the best player in the world when he was not even the best player on his own team.

i thought there were arguments for Keith and Hossa being as good or better than Toews, as well.

Rick Nash, for many years, was given a very high standing in the media. His lack of production being pinned on being on a bad team. “If he ever goes to a good team” well, he did and got worse. There is one benefit to being the only good offensive player on a team - everyone gives you the puck, especially on the PP. Olli Jokinen had this treatment in Florida - only nobody said he was one of the best in the league.

Nash is a likeable guy, and the media clearly liked interviewing him - and so many people fall for a big guy with sick hands, forgetting that there is a lot more than that that goes into being a total package.

 

[Dingo]

I'm ready to be beaten now, but is not Datsyuk sometimes overrated on this forum?
I think it is described in several threads that Datsyuk is Detroit's best player ever, or Russia's best or ....... The best ever defensively or the most technical ever?
I have a hard time seeing that greatness in Pavel D.

4th in scoring while winning the Selke, in back to back years, while being in the limelight due to Cup runs.... His peak was short, but brilliant. After that, for anyone not watching, he was just a snazzy, two way center who missed games and had 60-70pt seasons. He was still awesome, but never healthy for a long time again.

 

[MadLuke]

My god, who comes up with this stuff? It's not even just Makar, it's just such a random selection of players when no one would take anyone that wasn't Crosby/Ovechkin. Don't even bother throwing McDavid in to make it interesting.

If you put McDavid has an option does it not make it stop to be interesting ? Would be quite close to a 100% consensus pick in that group (of do they mean drafting them at 18? if so I am not sure I get the question and the picks there).

 

[johan f]

Ovechkin and McDavid.

Ovie can score but not many seasons he has been an asset in that way the other 4 skaters can count on him to contribute playwise, especially away from puck.

McDavid: He is a superman pee wee. Skates like the wind with no hockey iq what so ever. He is the opposite of Gretz. McDavid just skate fast. Never think hockey.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Ovechkin and McDavid.

Ovie can score but not many seasons he has been an asset in that way the other 4 skaters can count on him to contribute playwise, especially away from puck.

McDavid: He is a superman pee wee. Skates like the wind with no hockey iq what so ever. He is the opposite of Gretz. McDavid just skate fast. Never think hockey.

Lol

 

[johan f]

Lol

But you know I am right.

 

[ResilientBeast]

But you know I am right.

No I think you don't watch hockey

 

[shazariahl]

I find this absolutely comical considering you routinely try and shape the argument against Crosby because of SECONDARY/PHANTON ASSISTS

Something Gretzky probably has 4x as many as any player in the history of the league. Plenty of folks have surmised over the years Gretzky's assists totals are quite inflated but that's a whole other thread worthy argument entirely.

Mario's per game totals are on par with Gretzky's. Lemeiux had a ruined back by the time the 90's rolled around and then he battled cancer on top of it.

You're all over the place man.

Actually, several years back someone did a study of primary vs secondary assists, and listed all the top assist players in history (I think you needed 500+ assists to qualify, and obviously starting from when secondary assists were awarded). Gretzky had the highest % of primary assists of every player who made the list, and by a fairly large margin. I think the gap between Gretzky and #2 was bigger than the gap between #2 and 20.

So yes, he has more secondary assists than anyone in history because he has more assists than anyone in history even has points. But trying to portray him a the beneficiary of secondary assist compilations is factually incorrect. He is the greatest playmaker in history by a large margin, and has both raw primary assist totals and % of assists as primary assists to back it up.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Actually, several years back someone did a study of primary vs secondary assists, and listed all the top assist players in history (I think you needed 500+ assists to qualify, and obviously starting from when secondary assists were awarded). Gretzky had the highest % of primary assists of every player who made the list, and by a fairly large margin. I think the gap between Gretzky and #2 was bigger than the gap between #2 and 20.

So yes, he has more secondary assists than anyone in history because he has more assists than anyone in history even has points. But trying to portray him a the beneficiary of secondary assist compilations is factually incorrect. He is the greatest playmaker in history by a large margin, and has both raw primary assist totals and % of assists as primary assists to back it up.

As per a comment in this thread since the data was lost in a migration I'm sure. "Gretzky has 1000 primary assists"

That would be good enough to place 13th all time in assists if everyone else kept their second assists.

HSP Data: Primary and secondary assists

A comment from the OP
"Note that due to the decreasing share of primary assists over time this tends to give more credit to players from earlier periods. Nevertheless, one thing stands out: The guy with the most assists also has the highest share of primary assists. There is no doubt whatsoever that Wayne Gretzky is the greatest playmaker of all time."

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

As per a comment in this thread since the data was lost in a migration I'm sure. "Gretzky has 1000 primary assists"

That would be good enough to place 13th all time in assists if everyone else kept their second assists.

HSP Data: Primary and secondary assists

It should be noted that the NHL does provide primary and secondary assist data going all the way back to 1917-18 now. (It's under their "Scoring per Game" report for some reason.)

Here's data from 1980-81 to 1990-91 and data from 1987-88 to 1995-96 for example.

A comment from the OP
"Note that due to the decreasing share of primary assists over time this tends to give more credit to players from earlier periods. Nevertheless, one thing stands out: The guy with the most assists also has the highest share of primary assists. There is no doubt whatsoever that Wayne Gretzky is the greatest playmaker of all time."

That's a nice way of saying that they've been handing out more secondary assists over time.

But in all seriousness, I don't really see a huge deal. Looking at post-expansion forwards over their "primes" (loosely defined here, but whatever),

Player	Start Season	End Season	GP	G	A	A1	A2	PTS	Primary PTS	Primary PTS%	Primary A%
Phil Esposito	1968-69	1974-75	539	418	494	316	178	912	734	80.5%	64.0%
Guy Lafleur	1975-76	1979-80	462	327	439	269	170	766	596	77.8%	61.3%
Wayne Gretzky	1980-81	1990-91	846	667	1338	932	406	2005	1599	79.8%	69.7%
Mario Lemieux	1987-88	1995-96	454	418	606	378	228	1024	796	77.7%	62.4%
Jaromir Jagr	1994-95	2000-01	495	314	446	258	188	760	572	75.3%	57.8%
Sidney Crosby	2006-07	2013-14	469	235	432	267	165	667	502	75.3%	61.8%
Connor McDavid	2016-17	2020-21 (Apr 1)	343	167	317	206	111	484	373	77.1%	65.0%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Let's say ~77% primary points is pretty typical of the highest-scoring forward of the modern era. Is the fact that "only" 75% of Crosby and Jagr's points are primary a huge deal?

 

[ResilientBeast]

It should be noted that the NHL does provide primary and secondary assist data going all the way back to 1917-18 now. (It's under their "Scoring per Game" report for some reason.)

Here's data from 1980-81 to 1990-91 and data from 1987-88 to 1995-96 for example.



That's a nice way of saying that they've been handing out more secondary assists over time.

But in all seriousness, I don't really see a huge deal. Looking at post-expansion forwards over their "primes" (loosely defined here, but whatever),

Player	Start Season	End Season	GP	G	A	A1	A2	PTS	Primary PTS	Primary PTS%	Primary A%
Phil Esposito	1968-69	1974-75	539	418	494	316	178	912	734	80.5%	64.0%
Guy Lafleur	1975-76	1979-80	462	327	439	269	170	766	596	77.8%	61.3%
Wayne Gretzky	1980-81	1990-91	846	667	1338	932	406	2005	1599	79.8%	69.7%
Mario Lemieux	1987-88	1995-96	454	418	606	378	228	1024	796	77.7%	62.4%
Jaromir Jagr	1994-95	2000-01	495	314	446	258	188	760	572	75.3%	57.8%
Sidney Crosby	2006-07	2013-14	469	235	432	267	165	667	502	75.3%	61.8%
Connor McDavid	2016-17	2020-21 (Apr 1)	343	167	317	206	111	484	373	77.1%	65.0%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Let's say ~77% primary points is pretty typical of the highest-scoring forward of the modern era. Is the fact that "only" 75% of Crosby and Jagr's points are primary a huge deal?

I don't disagree with you, this was all because IE made this ice-cold take.

I find this absolutely comical considering you routinely try and shape the argument against Crosby because of SECONDARY/PHANTON ASSISTS

Something Gretzky probably has 4x as many as any player in the history of the league. Plenty of folks have surmised over the years Gretzky's assists totals are quite inflated but that's a whole other thread worthy argument entirely.

Mario's per game totals are on par with Gretzky's. Lemeiux had a ruined back by the time the 90's rolled around and then he battled cancer on top of it.

You're all over the place man.

 

[ResilientBeast]

It should be noted that the NHL does provide primary and secondary assist data going all the way back to 1917-18 now. (It's under their "Scoring per Game" report for some reason.)

Here's data from 1980-81 to 1990-91 and data from 1987-88 to 1995-96 for example.



That's a nice way of saying that they've been handing out more secondary assists over time.

But in all seriousness, I don't really see a huge deal. Looking at post-expansion forwards over their "primes" (loosely defined here, but whatever),

Player	Start Season	End Season	GP	G	A	A1	A2	PTS	Primary PTS	Primary PTS%	Primary A%
Phil Esposito	1968-69	1974-75	539	418	494	316	178	912	734	80.5%	64.0%
Guy Lafleur	1975-76	1979-80	462	327	439	269	170	766	596	77.8%	61.3%
Wayne Gretzky	1980-81	1990-91	846	667	1338	932	406	2005	1599	79.8%	69.7%
Mario Lemieux	1987-88	1995-96	454	418	606	378	228	1024	796	77.7%	62.4%
Jaromir Jagr	1994-95	2000-01	495	314	446	258	188	760	572	75.3%	57.8%
Sidney Crosby	2006-07	2013-14	469	235	432	267	165	667	502	75.3%	61.8%
Connor McDavid	2016-17	2020-21 (Apr 1)	343	167	317	206	111	484	373	77.1%	65.0%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Let's say ~77% primary points is pretty typical of the highest-scoring forward of the modern era. Is the fact that "only" 75% of Crosby and Jagr's points are primary a huge deal?

If it's not too much effort where does Ovechkin slot in?

I'd assume by virtue of goal scoring fairly close to Esposito since it's impossible to get a "secondary goal"

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

If it's not too much effort where does Ovechkin slot in?

I'd assume by virtue of goal scoring fairly close to Esposito since it's impossible to get a "secondary goal"

You nailed it!

Player	Start Season	End Season	GP	G	A	A1	A2	P	Primary PTS	Primary PTS%	Primary A%
Phil Esposito	1968-69	1974-75	539	418	494	316	178	912	734	80.5%	64.0%
Guy Lafleur	1975-76	1979-80	462	327	439	269	170	766	596	77.8%	61.3%
Wayne Gretzky	1980-81	1990-91	846	667	1338	932	406	2005	1599	79.8%	69.7%
Mario Lemieux	1987-88	1995-96	454	418	606	378	228	1024	796	77.7%	62.4%
Jaromir Jagr	1994-95	2000-01	495	314	446	258	188	760	572	75.3%	57.8%
Alex Ovechkin	2005-06	2012-13	601	371	364	230	134	735	601	81.8%	63.2%
Sidney Crosby	2006-07	2013-14	469	235	432	267	165	667	502	75.3%	61.8%
Connor McDavid	2016-17	2020-21 (Apr 1)	343	167	317	206	111	484	373	77.1%	65.0%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Here's Ovechkin's (actual?) prime as far as I can tell (last Hart win to delineate).

 

[The Panther]

Getting off topic here, but has anyone ever noticed discrepancies between how Hockey Reference and NHL.com list the primary and secondary assists? I would assume that the NHL site's are official and are almost entirely correct, but I've noticed that Hockey Ref's have several errors.

(I was watching a 1986-87 game between Montreal and Edmonton a couple of months ago, and there was a play where Steve Smith passed the puck about 1 meter to Gretzky along the boards, Gretzky made a couple of moves and threw an amazing 25-foot pass across the goal-mouth to Muni, who scored... and Hockey Ref lists Gretzky as the secondary assist and Smith as the primary.)

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

Getting off topic here, but has anyone ever noticed discrepancies between how Hockey Reference and NHL.com list the primary and secondary assists? I would assume that the NHL site's are official and are almost entirely correct, but I've noticed that Hockey Ref's have several errors.

(I was watching a 1986-87 game between Montreal and Edmonton a couple of months ago, and there was a play where Steve Smith passed the puck about 1 meter to Gretzky along the boards, Gretzky made a couple of moves and threw an amazing 25-foot pass across the goal-mouth to Muni, who scored... and Hockey Ref lists Gretzky as the secondary assist and Smith as the primary.)

I can't actually find the reference to the goal scored. Gretzky assisted on only two of Muni's goals in 86-87 (according to Hockey Reference, anyway):

Gretzky's 100th point:

100	1987-01-11	EDM		CGY	3	10:00	EV	Goal by Craig Muni, assisted by Wayne Gretzky and Jari Kurri

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Gretzky gets the primary assist here.

Gretzky's 180th point:

180	1987-03-25	EDM	@	HAR	2	02:05	EV	Goal by Craig Muni, assisted by Esa Tikkanen and Wayne Gretzky

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Gretzky gets the secondary on his 180th point according to Hockey Reference. The NHL says the same thing.

Gretzky didn't assist on any of Muni's goals in 1987-88 according to Hockey Reference.

 

[dalewood12]

Ovi and Crosby? Come on.

 

[Professor What]

I'm ready to be beaten now, but is not Datsyuk sometimes overrated on this forum?
I think it is described in several threads that Datsyuk is Detroit's best player ever, or Russia's best or ....... The best ever defensively or the most technical ever?
I have a hard time seeing that greatness in Pavel D.

I can all but guarantee that you haven't seen anyone say that Datsyuk was the best player ever in Detroit on the HOH board. That would universally be Gordie Howe. I feel just about as confident about anyone here saying that he was the best Russian player ever. Ovechkin, Tretiak, Kharlamov, Fetisov, and Mikhailov would be far more likely to be named there. If you think he's overrated, that's fine, but that comment was taking it a bit far.

 

[The Panther]

I can't actually find the reference to the goal scored. Gretzky assisted on only two of Muni's goals in 86-87 (according to Hockey Reference, anyway):

Gretzky's 100th point:

100	1987-01-11	EDM		CGY	3	10:00	EV	Goal by Craig Muni, assisted by Wayne Gretzky and Jari Kurri

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Gretzky gets the primary assist here.

Gretzky's 180th point:

180	1987-03-25	EDM	@	HAR	2	02:05	EV	Goal by Craig Muni, assisted by Esa Tikkanen and Wayne Gretzky

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Gretzky gets the secondary on his 180th point according to Hockey Reference. The NHL says the same thing.

Gretzky didn't assist on any of Muni's goals in 1987-88 according to Hockey Reference.

Yes, I must be in error. Maybe Smith scored it? Anyway, the point is not the goal itself (trivial, in Gretzky's case) but rather that Hockey Ref assigned the primary and secondary assists incorrectly (unless the Edmonton score-keeper did). It just made me wonder if there are many such discrepancies on Hockey Ref...

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

Yes, I must be in error. Maybe Smith scored it? Anyway, the point is not the goal itself (trivial, in Gretzky's case) but rather that Hockey Ref assigned the primary and secondary assists incorrectly (unless the Edmonton score-keeper did). It just made me wonder if there are many such discrepancies on Hockey Ref...

It's definitely possible. The NHL did a data trawl for its centennial and did a bunch of corrections (and by "a bunch", I mean over 6000 when it was only 70% through). It took a year for Hockey Reference to update its plus-minus numbers. It never updated its "defensive point shares" for pre-expansion players even though plus-minus data now goes back to 1959-60. That being said, a website doesn't exactly have millions of dollars to throw around like the NHL, so I wouldn't be surprised if stuff was missed (and I wouldn't blame them).

 

[jcs0218]

These days the HHOF committee is really overrating career point/goal totals from high scoring eras.

Which is allowing in a lot of merely good compilers.

I watched hockey for most of the 80s to mid 90s.

And players like Andreychuk or Ciccarelli were never really considered elite players or top 25 players. Maybe not even top 35 players.

 

[Maag80]

I can all but guarantee that you haven't seen anyone say that Datsyuk was the best player ever in Detroit on the HOH board. That would universally be Gordie Howe. I feel just about as confident about anyone here saying that he was the best Russian player ever. Ovechkin, Tretiak, Kharlamov, Fetisov, and Mikhailov would be far more likely to be named there. If you think he's overrated, that's fine, but that comment was taking it a bit far.

Absolutely, I overexagurated to get my point...
But by you, by media and overall, is Fedorov considered better than Datsyuk??

 

[Professor What]

Absolutely, I overexagurated to get my point...
But by you, by media and overall, is Fedorov considered better than Datsyuk??

I can only speak for myself definitively, and yes, I definitely think that Fedorov was greater than Datsyuk. Empirically, I can speak for this board by pointing out that panels of participants on this board ranked Fedorov 88th a couple of years ago in the top 100 players project and our current extension project ranked Datsyuk 128th. I'm not about to try to speak for the media.

So, again, it's fine if you think Datsyuk is overrated, but the statements about what this board believes were unfounded.