Most Overrated Player by The Hockey Media?

[The Panther]

The first real full-on dead-puck era season was 1997-98.

1996-97 was like a transition from higher-scoring to low-scoring, but overall the scoring that season was around the NHL's historical average rates. Definitely trending downward in a hurry, though.

And before that, 1995-96 was still quite high-scoring. Three clubs scored over 320 goals that season (Pittsburgh off the charts at 362, which was akin to Oilers/Flames in late 80s), while no team scored even 290 in 1996-97, and no team reached even 260 in 1997-98.

The reason some people think the DPE started earlier is because of the 1995 work-stoppage season, which saw scoring rates drop across the board (and for a lot of elite players). But I don't think that had anything to do with trends in the game overall, and was just down to the short season compressing games into a tight schedule.

If you ignore the weird 1995 short-season, NHL scoring rates per team / per-game went like this:

3.30 -- 1978

3.51 -- 1980

4.01 -- 1982

3.89 -- 1985

3.68 -- 1987

3.74 -- 1989
3.69 -- 1990
3.45 -- 1991
3.48 -- 1992
3.63 -- 1993
3.24 -- 1994
3.15 -- 1996
2.91 -- 1997
2.63 -- 1998
2.63 -- 1999
2.74 -- 2000
2.76 -- 2001
2.62 -- 2002
2.66 -- 2003
2.57 -- 2004


So, I guess it just depends on how you interpret "dead puck". There was a sharp downward trend in '94 and '96, but they were still way higher scoring than the '98 to '04 period.

I also think that circa '93 to '96, the newer expansion teams probably drop the scoring average a bit, making the scoring look a bit lower than it was for average teams (of course, that works both ways because clubs scored more against those teams, so I dunno how that averages out).

 

[Boxscore]

"Overrated by the MEDIA" -- Sidney Crosby 100%

Great player, but Sid has been "overrated" and blown up by the media since day 1.

 

[daver]

"Overrated by the MEDIA" -- Sidney Crosby 100%

Great player, but Sid has been "overrated" and blown up by the media since day 1.

Overrated how?

He was arguably the best prospect since Mario/Wayne, inarguably as an offensive player, and was on their level statistically leading up to the NHL. He had a pre-draft (age 18) junior career that is arguably the best of all-time, had the 2nd highest scoring finish for a rookie in their 18 year old season in NHL History, then became the only teenager to be awarded a scoring title in North American sports history.

After five years, arguably had a Top 5 career start regardless of age, and certainly Top 5 when considering his age. He is very much in the discussion with Hull and Beliveau for # 5 all-time.

If some media rate him above any of the Big Four, that is overrating him. Can you show any examples of this?

 

[Hobnobs]

Wendel Clark. Might be the most overrated by media and fans of all time

 

[Johnny Engine]

If some media rate him above any of the Big Four, that is overrating him. Can you show any examples of this?

Keeping in mind that most of the time, they'd be disregarding Howe and/or Orr's worthiness as a top-tier all-time great, which while I don't agree with that, is perfectly consistent with its own internal logic and doesn't require grossly overrating Crosby in relation to his peer Ovechkin, or the overlapping McDavid.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Keeping in mind that most of the time, they'd be disregarding Howe and/or Orr's worthiness as a top-tier all-time great, which while I don't agree with that, is perfectly consistent with its own internal logic and doesn't require grossly overrating Crosby in relation to his peer Ovechkin, or the overlapping McDavid.

Who would be disregarding Howe and Orr?

 

[DeysArena]

Wendel Clark. Might be the most overrated by media and fans of all time

I loved Clark when I was a kid, but he was definitely overrated because he played in Toronto and he was exciting to watch.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Jonathan Toews was GOAT'd in the media like he was in Crosby's tier. I love Toews tho and am glad he got such recognition.

 

[sr edler]

Wendel Clark. Might be the most overrated by media and fans of all time

I think they love him because he could fight with anybody and because he was Gilmour's bodyguard.

The best era/era comparison is probably Milan Lucic, and as much as I dislike Lucic (and think the league & the game would have been better off without him altogether, if he flipped burgers instead of playing hockey), he did bring something to those teams.

I guess, regarding the trade, some fans probably thought they already had their 1C (Gilmour), so why trade for another one while shipping out your Lucic? That's a forward/forward trade (Clark/Sundin), but regarding position, size & style of play, that must be one of the more mismatch-y trades of all time. Because while Sundin was big and strong, and great at shielding the puck, he wasn't exactly gritty and threw big hits and fought goons.

And while Gilmour was more gritty than Sundin, he was small and couldn't fight off the big guys all by himself.

I didn't follow the Leafs that closely during the 1994 playoffs, but it seems Clark overtook Andreychuk's role in the playoffs as Gilmour's main trigger guy. Andreychuk during the 1993–94 regular season had had the longest point streak of any player in the league (I think 13–14 games or something), but, as we all know, there's stuff you can do in the regular season you can't do in the playoffs. Andreychuk went ice cold, Gartner was Gartner, so they had to throw in a legitimate wrecking ball (Clark) on the 1st line to try to counter Vancouver's goon squad (Momesso, Odjick, Antoski, Hunter) and their big defense. From what I remember the Leafs had a pretty big defense themselves, but on the forward corps I think they were a little thinner or less intimidating.

Leafs felt they needed someone to scare opponent players with, so Gilmour could do his thing without being hounded too much by rock 'em sock 'em era goons.

Also, relative side note, but you rarely see Leafs fans from this era shit talk Bure because he was on fire in the Conference Finals and showcased what they dearly lacked themselves in their own main wingers.

 

[Voight]

"Overrated by the MEDIA" -- Sidney Crosby 100%

Great player, but Sid has been "overrated" and blown up by the media since day 1.

Especially after 2017.

 

[The Panther]

I think they love him because he could fight with anybody and because he was Gilmour's bodyguard.

Clark was already a folk-hero in Toronto long before Gilmour got there. In the 1985-1990 period, Wendel could have been elected mayor of Toronto.

If you go back and watch ESPN broadcasts of the 1987 Toronto-Detroit playoff series, the broadcasters are hyping it as Yzerman vs. Clark, and favorably comparing Clark to Yzerman (who, in fairness, didn't hit his peak until the following season).

Still, I don't think Clark was "over-rated" by Toronto fans. I never heard Leafs' fans arguing that Clark was a 1st-team All Star over Robitaille or Goulet or whoever. Even in his big 46-goal season, he received only 1 measly third-place All Star vote.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Clark was already a folk-hero in Toronto long before Gilmour got there. In the 1985-1990 period, Wendel could have been elected mayor of Toronto.

If you go back and watch ESPN broadcasts of the 1987 Toronto-Detroit playoff series, the broadcasters are hyping it as Yzerman vs. Clark, and favorably comparing Clark to Yzerman (who, in fairness, didn't hit his peak until the following season).

Still, I don't think Clark was "over-rated" by Toronto fans. I never heard Leafs' fans arguing that Clark was a 1st-team All Star over Robitaille or Goulet or whoever. Even in his big 46-goal season, he received only 1 measly third-place All Star vote.

Great wheels, excellent goal scorer, loads of courage and Charisma.

But very low in the hockey IQ department.

You could see why he would be overrated.

 

[hacksaw7]

The first real full-on dead-puck era season was 1997-98.

1996-97 was like a transition from higher-scoring to low-scoring, but overall the scoring that season was around the NHL's historical average rates. Definitely trending downward in a hurry, though.

And before that, 1995-96 was still quite high-scoring. Three clubs scored over 320 goals that season (Pittsburgh off the charts at 362, which was akin to Oilers/Flames in late 80s), while no team scored even 290 in 1996-97, and no team reached even 260 in 1997-98.

The reason some people think the DPE started earlier is because of the 1995 work-stoppage season, which saw scoring rates drop across the board (and for a lot of elite players). But I don't think that had anything to do with trends in the game overall, and was just down to the short season compressing games into a tight schedule.

If you ignore the weird 1995 short-season, NHL scoring rates per team / per-game went like this:

3.30 -- 1978

3.51 -- 1980

4.01 -- 1982

3.89 -- 1985

3.68 -- 1987

3.74 -- 1989
3.69 -- 1990
3.45 -- 1991
3.48 -- 1992
3.63 -- 1993
3.24 -- 1994
3.15 -- 1996
2.91 -- 1997
2.63 -- 1998
2.63 -- 1999
2.74 -- 2000
2.76 -- 2001
2.62 -- 2002
2.66 -- 2003
2.57 -- 2004


So, I guess it just depends on how you interpret "dead puck". There was a sharp downward trend in '94 and '96, but they were still way higher scoring than the '98 to '04 period.

I also think that circa '93 to '96, the newer expansion teams probably drop the scoring average a bit, making the scoring look a bit lower than it was for average teams (of course, that works both ways because clubs scored more against those teams, so I dunno how that averages out).

1995-1996 there were a lot of warning signs though. The 3.14 gpg was the lowest total since 70-71 if you discount the weird 1995 season

No team in the Atlantic Division could score more than 285 goals. The Caps only scored 234 which would've been looked at as an astonishingly low total in 1994. The Devils 215 goals was downright pathetic. But I mean Flyers, Rangers, Caps, guys like Lindros, Bondra, Leclair, Messier, Graves etc. And not one of those teams could even make it 290 goals

The Habs had good offensive talent that year and couldn't even crack 270. The Sabres were under 250. The Leafs were under 250. The Blues with only 219 goals scored...in 1993-1994 a playoff team who only scored 219 goals would've seemed impossible. Calgary only scored 241 which was their lowest output since moving. And this was all during the supposed last live puck season.

To me watching a game from 1993-1994 vs a game from 1995-1996...it's a big change in the style of play even though it's only a year apart

 

[JackSlater]

Great wheels, excellent goal scorer, loads of courage and Charisma.

But very low in the hockey IQ department.

You could see why he would be overrated.

Quite overrated as a player. Also wildly entertaining. If I could build a roster for my favourite team with all players from history available Clark would be the second line LW, and that's for my enjoyment.

 

[JianYang]

I loved Clark when I was a kid, but he was definitely overrated because he played in Toronto and he was exciting to watch.

I think there's a subtle difference there. I know Clark was beloved in that market, and that comes with the territory when you are good enough to play on the top lines, and act as a bodyguard at the same time.

Fans loved their enforcers who couldn't hang on top lines, so that fondness just gets amplified for a guy like Clark who could.

He's one of those guys who I think meant more to the leafs than his actual value, and thats the accumulated goodwill that comes with the way Clark played the game. As long as leaf fans could recognize that distinction, you can argue that it was more a love affair with the player rather than overrating his abilities.

He was like the leafs version of cam neely, who was also beloved in his local market.

 

[blogofmike]

Overrated how?

He was arguably the best prospect since Mario/Wayne, inarguably as an offensive player, and was on their level statistically leading up to the NHL. He had a pre-draft (age 18) junior career that is arguably the best of all-time, had the 2nd highest scoring finish for a rookie in their 18 year old season in NHL History, then became the only teenager to be awarded a scoring title in North American sports history.

After five years, arguably had a Top 5 career start regardless of age, and certainly Top 5 when considering his age. He is very much in the discussion with Hull and Beliveau for # 5 all-time.

If some media rate him above any of the Big Four, that is overrating him. Can you show any examples of this?

Dude. It's the media.

They're morons.

Most Valuable: Making the case for Crosby as the greatest player of all-time

Crosby's portrayed as a great 2-way player and played up as a winner, but he's been a plus player in 6 of his last 23 playoff series even as his team won 13 of those series. Crosby has already been a minus player in the playoffs more often than Jagr (who played forever), and the majority of Jagr's minus runs came after his 40th birthday. He already has more sub-1.00 PPG playoff years than Jagr and Jagr is often held up as an example of a guy who didn't bring it in the playoffs.

In addition to frequently being outscored in the playoffs, he kills no penalties (on par with Beliveau in that regard to be fair) and is sheltered from defensive zone faceoffs (77% offensive zone starts in this year's playoffs where he scored 2 points in 6 games and was a -2).

Crosby's playoff haven't been horrible overall (they have been on occasion), but they haven't been great. If he's a 7/10 and people act like he's a 10/10, all of a sudden his fans are going to think you're saying the guy is a 4/10 when you point out that he's overrated.

 

[MadLuke]

He was like the leafs version of cam neely, who was also beloved in his local market.

I think that the type of comparison that can make him sound overrated:

From 86-87 to 95-96 Neely scored at a 54 goal by 82 games rate, only Lemieux-Hull were above that
NHL Stats

Is his peak at a 58 per 82:
NHL Stats

Only between Lemieux-Hull (like almost anyone in history would have been, arguably everyone) and #14 in ppg

Clark between is short prime of 89-90 to 93-94 was not in the top 100 scoring in the league.

Per games, #35 in goal between Larmer and Verbeek, point at #87 between Darren Turcotte and Michel Goulet.

Cam Neely was a superstar that played few game, Clark at his best an argument could be made was Pat Verbeek playing few game with a cool Mustache, but Verbeek did it many time, when Clark did it one season. The Sundin trade make a strong argument for how much he got overrated by everyone too, not just the media.

 

[JianYang]

I think that the type of comparison that can make him sound overrated:

From 86-87 to 95-96 Neely scored at a 54 goal by 82 games rate, only Lemieux-Hull were above that
NHL Stats

Is his peak at a 58 per 82:
NHL Stats

Only between Lemieux-Hull (like almost anyone in history would have been, arguably everyone) and #14 in ppg

Clark between is short prime of 89-90 to 93-94 was not in the top 100 scoring in the league.

Per games, #35 in goal between Larmer and Verbeek, point at #87 between Darren Turcotte and Michel Goulet.

Cam Neely was a superstar that played few game, Clark at his best an argument could be made was Pat Verbeek playing few game with a cool Mustache, but Verbeek did it many time, when Clark did it one season. The Sundin trade make a strong argument for how much he got overrated by everyone too, not just the media.

The comparison was meant to compare playing styles, which would draw alot of admiration from their fans.

I'm not suggesting that Clark was as good as neely. I just called him the leafs version of neely.

 

[Dingo]

Since ive been watching, that i can remember

Lindros - just way too much hype before he did anything at all. Awesome player, especially for the time, but the hoopla as “The Next One” was obscene.

Rick Nash - folded in playoffs and best on bests. there was always an excuse for him (not from him, great guy)

Marty Brodeur - Excellent goalie. without a doubt the last steady top, top tier goalie in hockey. Media pushed his card a bit, i think to downplay Hasek via longevity and team wins.

Crosby- there was simply never a time when he wasnt presented

edit, ipad problems

toews and McDavid finish my list.

 

[Volica]

Not really. Overrated doesn't mean terrible.

Ranking the NHL's 100 Greatest Players: Nos. 20-1

For me Crosby at #9 seems high and it's really more noticeable when someone is ranked in the top 10 by the media (as opposed to my windmill tilting against Norm Ullman being 100 spots too high at #101 on the Top 200.)

Now the Dionne pick is probably the most overrated there (some may go for Messier, Yzerman or Coffey, and that's only if you don't click outside the Top 20 to find Gartner, Lafontaine, Shanahan, etc.) but Crosby at #9 is overrated to me and not atypical of media rankings.

Seeing Martin Brodeur as the second greatest goalie of all time, and a top 20 player of all time, for me, is out of line.
I don't deny that he was a tremendous player, but... man; I try to imagine how different his career would have been if Calgary selected him rather than Trevor Kidd; and he had to deal with being a team holding on to dear life just to exist.

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, Brodeur is probably a fair nomination. It's not that he wasn't truly great -- he was -- but the North American media really went to town on him as maybe the greatest of all-time and so on, and it just isn't supportable. He was probably not even the 1st or 2nd-best of his own era!

Save Percentage:
3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8
Goals Saved Above-Average (bearing in mind he played more games per year than almost anyone):
1, 1, 2, 4, 6, 6, 8, 10 (the two seasons he was 1st, he played 77 and 78 games)

In Brodeur's defense, he was consistent every year, he put up the wins, had a superb won-lost record, and he almost always brought it in the playoffs, and three Cups speaks for itself. But talking of him as the greatest of all time is just nonsense.

 

[Hobnobs]

Seeing Martin Brodeur as the second greatest goalie of all time, and a top 20 player of all time, for me, is out of line.
I don't deny that he was a tremendous player, but... man; I try to imagine how different his career would have been if Calgary selected him rather than Trevor Kidd; and he had to deal with being a team holding on to dear life just to exist.

I mean.. Kipper did alright and Brodeur is definitely better than him. Hell, Brathwaite did very well. I do agree with him being overrated by media so you're right about that.

 

[Staniowski]

Clark was already a folk-hero in Toronto long before Gilmour got there. In the 1985-1990 period, Wendel could have been elected mayor of Toronto.

If you go back and watch ESPN broadcasts of the 1987 Toronto-Detroit playoff series, the broadcasters are hyping it as Yzerman vs. Clark, and favorably comparing Clark to Yzerman (who, in fairness, didn't hit his peak until the following season).

Still, I don't think Clark was "over-rated" by Toronto fans. I never heard Leafs' fans arguing that Clark was a 1st-team All Star over Robitaille or Goulet or whoever. Even in his big 46-goal season, he received only 1 measly third-place All Star vote.

I agree with what you've said here.

The popularity of Wendel Clark had almost nothing to do with Doug Gilmour. Wendelmania was at its peak around 1987 or so.



And I don't think overrated is the right word to describe Wendel.

 

[Boxscore]

Dude. It's the media.

They're morons.

Most Valuable: Making the case for Crosby as the greatest player of all-time

Crosby's portrayed as a great 2-way player and played up as a winner, but he's been a plus player in 6 of his last 23 playoff series even as his team won 13 of those series. Crosby has already been a minus player in the playoffs more often than Jagr (who played forever), and the majority of Jagr's minus runs came after his 40th birthday. He already has more sub-1.00 PPG playoff years than Jagr and Jagr is often held up as an example of a guy who didn't bring it in the playoffs.

In addition to frequently being outscored in the playoffs, he kills no penalties (on par with Beliveau in that regard to be fair) and is sheltered from defensive zone faceoffs (77% offensive zone starts in this year's playoffs where he scored 2 points in 6 games and was a -2).

Crosby's playoff haven't been horrible overall (they have been on occasion), but they haven't been great. If he's a 7/10 and people act like he's a 10/10, all of a sudden his fans are going to think you're saying the guy is a 4/10 when you point out that he's overrated.

The media's slurping of Crosby began day 1 and it was over-the-top ever since. The NHL was coming out of a terrible lockout and they needed a face for their "New NHL" and the marketing machine went crazy promoting him as the next Gretzky.

Every routine goal Sid scored was framed as "the greatest" and every play he made as "spectacular." I think much of the reason why some knowledgeable hockey fans began to resent Crosby was due to the fact that they were sick of the media's push to convince us he's on Gretzky's level... or better. Yes, I've heard some legit "hockey people" say Crosby is the greatest player who ever played lol. The guy has played 16 seasons in the NHL and only has 2 Art Ross and 2 Harts, yet he's the greatest ever?

So, yes, it's the media. But, when it comes to Crosby, I've never seen anything like it in my life. Again, great player, no doubt. But...