Morgan Rielly

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
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It should be given consideration of course but not weighted so heavily to discount what Karlsson's been doing. Also perhaps Zeke only meant that Karlsson shouldn't be considered this year? Because his usage in San Jose is way softer than anything he had in Ottawa, its disingenuous to suggest that he is some sort of career-sheltered player and it leans into an ancient "4th forward" narrative that should've long been put to bed.

As for Rielly although he has taken more difficult usage than Karlsson this season, if we had Vlasic on our side I doubt this would even be the case, he does not have the most difficult usage on the team. Behind Hainsey and Zaistev by any metric and pretty on point with Gardiner, somehow despite being middle of the pack for usage on his team and playing less time than either Burns or Karlsson they are subject to criticism for taking on sub par players and Rielly lauded for his workload? Unless we're playing against all star teams every game and the Sharks are taking on the Oilers something smells fishy.

Rielly's having a terrific season and deserves to be in the top defensmen discussion at least of the year so far, but we don't need to try and cut giants off at the knees to show everyone how tall Rielly is.

to be even more specific - I was speaking directly to Randy's attention to the "underlying" numbers - when it comes to those numbers, I aggressively believe that you can't compare underlying numbers at par between guys who get elite top pair usage and those who get 2nd/3rd pair usage. You can't say that having better underlying numbers in much softer usage is actually a real advantage, imo.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
It should be given consideration of course but not weighted so heavily to discount what Karlsson's been doing. Also perhaps Zeke only meant that Karlsson shouldn't be considered this year? Because his usage in San Jose is way softer than anything he had in Ottawa, its disingenuous to suggest that he is some sort of career-sheltered player and it leans into an ancient "4th forward" narrative that should've long been put to bed.

As for Rielly although he has taken more difficult usage than Karlsson this season, if we had Vlasic on our side I doubt this would even be the case, he does not have the most difficult usage on the team. Behind Hainsey and Zaistev by any metric and pretty on point with Gardiner, somehow despite being middle of the pack for usage on his team and playing less time than either Burns or Karlsson they are subject to criticism for taking on sub par players and Rielly lauded for his workload? Unless we're playing against all star teams every game and the Sharks are taking on the Oilers something smells fishy.

Rielly's having a terrific season and deserves to be in the top defensmen discussion at least of the year so far, but we don't need to try and cut giants off at the knees to show everyone how tall Rielly is.

a couple more things:

Rielly does in fact face the toughest even strength quality of competition on the team by opponent's ice time. His 29.76 es toiqoc does lead the leafs dmen (11th of the 144dmen with 500+ minutes), and by a lot over anyone but hainsey, who ranks 24th. Jake and Zaits are facing tougher competition than they did in previous years, but still rank well back in 53rd and 55th in toiqoc)

And I'm not sure why you think Vlasic would or should get tougher usage than Rielly. Vlasic gets slightly tougher usage (ranks 7th), but gets demolished in that competition (-7.4cfrel, -9.1xgfrel).

the natural comps between the two teams, based on opponents' ice time:

(i'll add rough cf/xgf averages in brcakets0

Rielly 11th (50.0pos%, -2.9rel) - Vlasic 7th (49.7pos%, -8.2rel)
Hainsey 24th (48.2pos%, -5.2rel) - Braun 27th(49.0pos%, -9.1rel)

These two pairs get legit elite top-pair usage, neither is doing especially well in it, but the leafs' pair is doing better, and Rielly clearly faring better than any of the others. And where Hainsey seems to be clearly dragging Rielly down, vlasic and braun seem more even in their ineptitude).

Gardiner 53rd (53.0pos%, +2.1rel) - Karlsson 77th (59.9pos%, +7.9rel)
Zaitsev 55th (51.1pos%, -0.9rel) - Burns 105th (56.7pos%, +2.2rel)

Jake/Zaits actually are getting stronger competition than usual, borderline top pair usage, but still well behind the top pairs. But they're doing quite well in this usage. Meanwhile Karlsson and Burns are getting strictly 2nd pair type quality of competition. Burns is actually only getting borderline 2nd pair competition. To his credit, Karlsson is absolutely crushing it against secondary competition, but still, imo you just can't call that a clear advantage over guys who are facing elite usage. But at least I see the argument there. As for Burns, his underlying numbers are only good, not great, against not even clearcut top-4 competition. Burns should not be in any Norris conversation, and never should have been.

But, like i said, it seems like SJ is finally figuring it out and dialling down Vlasic's usage (8th is tough but this guy has led the league by a healthy margin pretty much every year of the last 5), and dialling up Karlsson's.
 

Marshy

Behind Enemy Lines
Oct 3, 2007
8,145
9,201
Ottawa
Could an All-Star team made up entirely of players not making the All-Star game, win the All-Star game?
 

Ryan Michaels

Registered User
Mar 21, 2017
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a couple more things:

Rielly does in fact face the toughest even strength quality of competition on the team by opponent's ice time. His 29.76 es toiqoc does lead the leafs dmen (11th of the 144dmen with 500+ minutes), and by a lot over anyone but hainsey, who ranks 24th. Jake and Zaits are facing tougher competition than they did in previous years, but still rank well back in 53rd and 55th in toiqoc)

And I'm not sure why you think Vlasic would or should get tougher usage than Rielly. Vlasic gets slightly tougher usage (ranks 7th), but gets demolished in that competition (-7.4cfrel, -9.1xgfrel).

the natural comps between the two teams, based on opponents' ice time:

(i'll add rough cf/xgf averages in brcakets0

Rielly 11th (50.0pos%, -2.9rel) - Vlasic 7th (49.7pos%, -8.2rel)
Hainsey 24th (48.2pos%, -5.2rel) - Braun 27th(49.0pos%, -9.1rel)

These two pairs get legit elite top-pair usage, neither is doing especially well in it, but the leafs' pair is doing better, and Rielly clearly faring better than any of the others. And where Hainsey seems to be clearly dragging Rielly down, vlasic and braun seem more even in their ineptitude).

Gardiner 53rd (53.0pos%, +2.1rel) - Karlsson 77th (59.9pos%, +7.9rel)
Zaitsev 55th (51.1pos%, -0.9rel) - Burns 105th (56.7pos%, +2.2rel)

Jake/Zaits actually are getting stronger competition than usual, borderline top pair usage, but still well behind the top pairs. But they're doing quite well in this usage. Meanwhile Karlsson and Burns are getting strictly 2nd pair type quality of competition. Burns is actually only getting borderline 2nd pair competition. To his credit, Karlsson is absolutely crushing it against secondary competition, but still, imo you just can't call that a clear advantage over guys who are facing elite usage. But at least I see the argument there. As for Burns, his underlying numbers are only good, not great, against not even clearcut top-4 competition. Burns should not be in any Norris conversation, and never should have been.

But, like i said, it seems like SJ is finally figuring it out and dialling down Vlasic's usage (8th is tough but this guy has led the league by a healthy margin pretty much every year of the last 5), and dialling up Karlsson's.

Fair enough, if I drew inaccurate conclusions about Rielly's usage it was prompted by the gut feeling there wasnt a huge difference of usage among the top 4s and misunderstanding some charts, never been a advanced stats guru.

Im also a proponent of the Norris going to a defensive stalwart but I think offensive output can reach a point where the player is impossible to ignore, regardless of context. But I appretiate your criticism, particulary of Burns who I have always had at least 5 dmen I, personally, would take over him.

As for Vlasic over Rielly defensively Im just giving him the benefit of the doubt for his career body of work, though its concievable he is simply declining.
 

Ryan Michaels

Registered User
Mar 21, 2017
4,275
5,637
to be even more specific - I was speaking directly to Randy's attention to the "underlying" numbers - when it comes to those numbers, I aggressively believe that you can't compare underlying numbers at par between guys who get elite top pair usage and those who get 2nd/3rd pair usage. You can't say that having better underlying numbers in much softer usage is actually a real advantage, imo.

And this makes more sense, agreed.
 

The Beyonder

Registered User
Jan 16, 2007
7,006
2,165
I'd rather Marner and Rielly get some needed rest and regroup for the next half rather than play a meaningless all star game that gets more boring with each passing year and is becoming a major farce at that too. The fact that Rielly and Giordano stay while Yandle goes is an absolute farce.
 
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supermann_98

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May 8, 2002
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I'd rather Marner and Rielly get some needed rest and regroup for the next half rather than play a meaningless all star game that gets more boring with each passing year and is becoming a major farce at that too. The fact that Rielly and Giordano stay while Yandle goes is an absolute farce.
You’re right but the whole game is a farce. The highest scoring defenseman in the league not at the all-star game is a joke on so many levels but who still watches this game? I haven’t watched since they tried the glowing puck that one year way back when the American audience couldn’t see the puck on their tv
 

7even

Offered and lost
Feb 1, 2012
18,643
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North Carolina
So with a primary assist (and beauty play in general to attack off the point) on Hyman's GWG vs the Pens, Cap'n Morgan has matched his career high in points with 52, in twenty-five fewer games than last year. I don't think he'll win it this year with ol' Marky Giordano giving Father Time quite the middle finger, but to think our hapless Leafs actually managed to draft AND develop their own Norris calibre defenseman? Never thought I'd see the day. I'll give that old curmudgeon Burkie credit where it's due, he made a brilliant pick at #5 in 2012. Love this kid.
 

Ziggdiezan

Registered User
Apr 10, 2015
10,847
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So with a primary assist (and beauty play in general to attack off the point) on Hyman's GWG vs the Pens, Cap'n Morgan has matched his career high in points with 52, in twenty-five fewer games than last year. I don't think he'll win it this year with ol' Marky Giordano giving Father Time quite the middle finger, but to think our hapless Leafs actually managed to draft AND develop their own Norris calibre defenseman? Never thought I'd see the day. I'll give that old curmudgeon Burkie credit where it's due, he made a brilliant pick at #5 in 2012. Love this kid.
Gio was being dragged down by Hamilton I feel like, or at least forced to play a more defensive game. His point totals are back up like it was before when he played with Brodie (who he is playing with again this year).

He is also playing 3:30 of PP a game, which is nuts and has 19 PP points.
 

7even

Offered and lost
Feb 1, 2012
18,643
14,251
North Carolina
Gio was being dragged down by Hamilton I feel like, or at least forced to play a more defensive game. His point totals are back up like it was before when he played with Brodie (who he is playing with again this year).

He is also playing 3:30 of PP a game, which is nuts and has 19 PP points.

He's damn good. Does just about everything well.
 

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