Speculation: More Moves Coming?

[BLONG7]

Intangible intangibles are the bane of my experience as a Habs fan. Call it attitude, character, or culture — the fetish has clearly not gone anywhere.

The organization has struggled moving on from The Rinse and Repeat Era.............damaging at best.

 

[BaseballCoach]

no, they want to put Price on in season LTIR. You have to understand how LTIR works, it's only going to give you more cap space if you are 100% certain that player will MISS the ENTIRE season. The other players won't, so they don't matter for in season LTIR.

Yes, but why would Wideman or Dvorak go on off-season LTIR, minimum 10 games. Doesn't that cause issues using the off-season LTIR?

Did you mean to say they would go on IN-season IR?

 

[BaseballCoach]

Intangible intangibles are the bane of my experience as a Habs fan. Call it attitude, character, or culture — the fetish has clearly not gone anywhere.

I've coached three team sports including hockey. It is absolutely true that a player's character matters in sports. Attitude matters too.

Talent without character will usually under-perform to expectations. Good attitude helps overcome obstacles while not taking success for granted. Good attitude fosters learning. Bad attitude hinders learning, and dampens performance sooner or later.

Culture is a whole other thing. An individual person can have good character (honest, hard-working) or bad character (lazy, dishonest). But a person cannot have good culture, nor bad culture. Culture is more something that comes from the leadership of organization. Do the leaders have good character themselves, and do they encourage good behaviour while discouraging bad behaviour?

If you have a good team culture, players with errant behaviour or negative attitudes are quickly out of favour, and then they either find a way to improve, or they are moved out. In the best team cultures, the leaders try to help that person first. In the second best, they just trade/drop the player and move on. In the worst cultures, the bad behaviour is enabled or tolerated and the team will almost certainly underperform.

 

[ReHabs]

I've coached three team sports including hockey. It is absolutely true that a player's character matters in sports. Attitude matters too.

Talent without character will usually under-perform to expectations. Good attitude helps overcome obstacles while not taking success for granted. Good attitude fosters learning. Bad attitude hinders learning, and dampens performance sooner or later.

Culture is a whole other thing. An individual person can have good character (honest, hard-working) or bad character (lazy, dishonest). But a person cannot have good culture, nor bad culture. Culture is more something that comes from the leadership of organization. Do the leaders have good character themselves, and do they encourage good behaviour while discouraging bad behaviour?

If you have a good team culture, players with errant behaviour or negative attitudes are quickly out of favour, and then they either find a way to improve, or they are moved out. In the best team cultures, the leaders try to help that person first. In the second best, they just trade/drop the player and move on. In the worst cultures, the bad behaviour is enabled or tolerated and the team will almost certainly underperform.

These are professional athletes, not amateurs. It is taken for granted that they all have drive and determination on a near-superhuman level -- we don't need our team to over-emphasize this. Bergevin did it for ten years and still had a roster that gave up and had extended losing streaks ever year, even with Mountain Man Shea Weber in the room. In the best league of the sport, talent is necessary.

 

[BaseballCoach]

These are professional athletes, not amateurs. It is taken for granted that they all have drive and determination on a near-superhuman level -- we don't need our team to over-emphasize this. Bergevin did it for ten years and still had a roster that gave up and had extended losing streaks ever year, even with Mountain Man Shea Weber in the room. In the best league of the sport, talent is necessary.

Of course, talent matters.

But in professional sports, there are countless examples of players with talent who have poor character or a negative attitude and it affects results.

I'm pretty sure you are not blind to this, and in fact have seen plenty.

Do we really think Sean Monahan had more talent than Nail Yakupov? Not when they were drafted. But Monahan's attitude and character contributed to him learning more, getting frustrated less, and contributing to team results more.

Now I'm not saying that great attitude alone turns a third-round talent into a justified top-10 pick.

But poor attitude can knock a player down from where they might have been drafted had they shown the attitude that will drive more growth later in their career.

 

[morhilane]

Yes, but why would Wideman or Dvorak go on off-season LTIR, minimum 10 games. Doesn't that cause issues using the off-season LTIR?

Did you mean to say they would go on IN-season IR?

Wideman/Dvorak will go on IR, if even. Habs might play with 18 players and keep them on the roster to claim they have 20 (the min required) to make the cap work on the first day.

They can't paper transaction Slaf down without getting slapped in the face by the performance bonus on the recall after putting Price or anyone on LTIR. He turns into a $4.45m player if you do that.

The more I think about it, the more I believe they will have to trade Armia or Allen before the season start.

 

[ReHabs]

Of course, talent matters.

But in professional sports, there are countless examples of players with talent who have poor character or a negative attitude and it affects results.

I'm pretty sure you are not blind to this, and in fact have seen plenty.

Do we really think Sean Monahan had more talent than Nail Yakupov? Not when they were drafted. But Monahan's attitude and character contributed to him learning more, getting frustrated less, and contributing to team results more.

Now I'm not saying that great attitude alone turns a third-round talent into a justified top-10 pick.

But poor attitude can knock a player down from where they might have been drafted had they shown the attitude that will drive more growth later in their career.

Evoking the name of a notorious bust who had notoriously poor understanding of hockey doesn't really affect the point I'm trying to convey.

Compare Monahan with Crosby, both good attitudes and Good ol Canadian boys. One's much more talented than the other, despite both working hard and all that. See, it's as spurious of an example as yours.

You're completely besides the point I'm trying to make here: over-emphasis on intangible intangibles leads the Habs nowhere. In fact, it led the Habs to having Armia (3.4m), Gallagher (6.5m, NMC), and Jake Allen (3.75m) on the roster.

We should, both as a fanbase and as a critical community, move on from reductive reasoning such as what the Habs (ab)used for the past many years. Let's assume the players on the roster are not outlier-bad in terms of intangible qualities and instead focus on tangible aspects relating to their game.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Wideman/Dvorak will go on IR, if even. Habs might play with 18 players and keep them on the roster to claim they have 20 (the min required) to make the cap work on the first day.

They can't paper transaction Slaf down without getting slapped in the face by the performance bonus on the recall after putting Price or anyone on LTIR. He turns into a $4.45m player if you do that.

The more I think about it, the more I believe they will have to trade Armia or Allen before the season start.

Correct, Dvorak and Wideman can be on the cap compliance roster and put on IR next day.

Also correct about Slaf.

They do not have to trade Armia, they can waive him. If they do so, they do not need to waive Allen, Evans or anyone else who needs waivers and whose cap is over $1.150M

 

[morhilane]

Correct, Dvorak and Wideman can be on the cap compliance roster and put on IR next day.

Also correct about Slaf.

They do not have to trade Armia, they can waive him. If they do so, they do not need to waive Allen, Evans or anyone else who needs waivers and whose cap is over $1.150M

They need to trade one of Armia or Allen to avoid the 18 players situation and wouldn't need to put Price on LTIR at all if they managed that.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Evoking the name of a notorious bust who had notoriously poor understanding of hockey doesn't really affect the point I'm trying to convey.

Compare Monahan with Crosby, both good attitudes and Good ol Canadian boys. One's much more talented than the other, despite both working hard and all that. See, it's as spurious of an example as yours.

You're completely besides the point I'm trying to make here: over-emphasis on intangible intangibles leads the Habs nowhere. In fact, it led the Habs to having Armia (3.4m), Gallagher (6.5m, NMC), and Jake Allen (3.75m) on the roster.

We should, both as a fanbase and as a critical community, move on from reductive reasoning such as what the Habs (ab)used for the past many years. Let's assume the players on the roster are not outlier-bad in terms of intangible qualities and instead focus on tangible aspects relating to their game.

I agree with you that Bozo was crying while extending Gallahger due to excessive attitude-worship. This was incompetence. It wasn't hard even for the other 99% of Hab fans who saw some character pluses in Gallagher to better project his production. It was obvious to most of us that he was going to regress to being a 15 goal scorer and get injured a lot. Now, character DOES still matter. Without his compete level, Gallagher would be a 3 goal scorer or long retired.

Armia's contract is not an example of attitude-worship. If it was about attitude, Lehkonen would have got the 4 year contract and Perry would have stuck around instead of Armia. Armia was over-rated by Bozo, pure and simple.

Allen got a year too long and $1M too much because of
1. great attitude
2. a spate of recent good games

Hughes learned and did not give in to the idea promoted by some folks here who wanted RHP rewarded for 34 good games with 5 x $5M.

All this being said, character, or at least the coachability feature of it, is more important with youngsters when a club has to project their impact AFTER they learn for a few years.

Character alone should not prompt you to pick a small talent in the first round, but it can tip the balance for the Gallaghers and RHPs versus other late round possible picks. Davidson might be another example more recently, or at least so they hope. Or you can judge that the character flaws of a very young draft-year Joshua Roy were not as bad as advertised, and bet on his talent in the 5th round.

Character and attitude have a place in a logical overall approach, but "culture"? Not an individual trait.

 

[BaseballCoach]

They need to trade one of Armia or Allen to avoid the 18 players situation and wouldn't need to put Price on LTIR at all if they managed that.

The day after Cap Compliance is achieved, they put Price on LTIR, Dvorak and Wideman on IR, and play with the 22 or 23 healthy players of their choice.

There is not enough room to play 20 healthy players, with two spares at least on away game days and have all three injured guys on the cap too.

However, there is enough room if Armia and Allen are BOTH traded without taking back any cap.

But who is doing that with us?

I think there is a better chance of making a deal built around Price for someone like Joseph.

 

[montreal]

Yes, but why would Wideman or Dvorak go on off-season LTIR, minimum 10 games. Doesn't that cause issues using the off-season LTIR?

Did you mean to say they would go on IN-season IR?

i was just responding to the poster for saying they are trying to avoid placing any players on LTIR before the season starts so I didn't want to go into IR vs LTIR so I thought I would keep it simple and just point out they aren't concerned with those players just Price for in season LTIR.

 

[Frankenheimer]

I've coached three team sports including hockey. It is absolutely true that a player's character matters in sports. Attitude matters too.

Talent without character will usually under-perform to expectations. Good attitude helps overcome obstacles while not taking success for granted. Good attitude fosters learning. Bad attitude hinders learning, and dampens performance sooner or later.

Culture is a whole other thing. An individual person can have good character (honest, hard-working) or bad character (lazy, dishonest). But a person cannot have good culture, nor bad culture. Culture is more something that comes from the leadership of organization. Do the leaders have good character themselves, and do they encourage good behaviour while discouraging bad behaviour?

If you have a good team culture, players with errant behaviour or negative attitudes are quickly out of favour, and then they either find a way to improve, or they are moved out. In the best team cultures, the leaders try to help that person first. In the second best, they just trade/drop the player and move on. In the worst cultures, the bad behaviour is enabled or tolerated and the team will almost certainly underperform.

I recall during my best soccer days (“semi-pro” lol) playing on a team full of young, hyper active, yet very talented players. There was one lone right back who was good but clearly a senior player, slower and wily (at the time, 35, which I wish I was now). We called him the Sheriff (no connection). This guy was so important to the team I can’t tell you. Everyone looked up to him and he was always calming the team down. He was not replaceable. Sure, you can’t have a team full of Sheriffs, but you need a couple. And the team was successful. Didn’t we have an older backup goalie who helped Price at one point?

Edit: I guess I’m thinking of Budaj

 

[HabzSauce]

I recall during my best soccer days (“semi-pro” lol) playing on a team full of young, hyper active, yet very talented players. There was one lone right back who was good but clearly a senior player, slower and wily (at the time, 35, which I wish I was now). We called him the Sheriff (no connection). This guy was so important to the team I can’t tell you. Everyone looked up to him and he was always calming the team down. He was not replaceable. Sure, you can’t have a team full of Sheriffs, but you need a couple. And the team was successful. Didn’t we have an older backup goalie who helped Price at one point?

Edit: I guess I’m thinking of Budaj

Yea culture and attitude is most definitely a massive factor in sports. Not just sports but everything in life. No idea why it would be different for pro hockey.

You for sure need talent but toxicity can sometimes overshadow that ala Buffalo and Winnipeg in recent years. Even if that team oozes with talent, the negative culture/negative attitudes will eventually cost them games/development/etc.

good attitude is what all the gamers have. I can't think of one superstar that isn't obsessed with winning. All the good players have it, as do all the overachievers.

and as for development, we are monkey see monkey do. Having young players around strong leaders will only help them in the long run.

 

[Steve Shutt]

no, they want to put Price on in season LTIR. You have to understand how LTIR works, it's only going to give you more cap space if you are 100% certain that player will MISS the ENTIRE season. The other players won't, so they don't matter for in season LTIR.

I think we're both saying the same thing and agree there's no need or benefit to place Wideman or Dvorak on in-season LTIR. I don't know the extent of Wideman's injury but they could always place him retroactively if it looks like he'll be out for a long time

 

[Deus ex machina]

The day after Cap Compliance is achieved, they put Price on LTIR, Dvorak and Wideman on IR, and play with the 22 or 23 healthy players of their choice.

There is not enough room to play 20 healthy players, with two spares at least on away game days and have all three injured guys on the cap too.

However, there is enough room if Armia and Allen are BOTH traded without taking back any cap.

But who is doing that with us?

I think there is a better chance of making a deal built around Price for someone like Joseph.

I'm not a capologist, and correct me if i'm wrong, but is it not simpler to just put Dvorak on off-season LTIR?
He's supposed to miss the first month.

Wideman on IR, Xhekaj in the AHL (on paper) and they're 50K under the cap with a 23 player roster.

Once Price is put on LTIR, send Barron down, recall Xhekaj and they have 10.6M of cap space. Around 7M when Dvo comes back.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I'm not a capologist, and correct me if i'm wrong, but is it not simpler to just put Dvorak on off-season LTIR?
He's supposed to miss the first month.

Wideman on IR, Xhekaj in the AHL (on paper) and they're 50K under the cap with a 23 player roster.

Once Price is put on LTIR, send Barron down, recall Xhekaj and they have 10.6M of cap space. Around 7M when Dvo comes back.

The idea is not to use off-season LTIR.

 

[morhilane]

I'm not a capologist, and correct me if i'm wrong, but is it not simpler to just put Dvorak on off-season LTIR?

People really need top stop with LTIR this, LTIR that. LTIR is bad for cap management (stop accruing cap space, performance bonus are applied to cap hits on recalls and a bunch of other things) and teams would prefer to avoid it, especially those with a lots of ELC like the Habs. Pre-season LTIR is even worst with how it fix your starting cap to how much money you have on the roster at season start.

LTIR is bad unless you got a team without ELCs and need to replace a mid-season injury that will miss the remaining of the season.

 

[Steve Shutt]

Here's our 22 man roster on Day 1 (ignore lines) of the season without using any LTIR.
This version has us over the cap by $361k. Looks easily solved by paper transactioning Slaf but reading comments from some posters that might impact his performance bonus (need more details if someone could explain). Otherwise we're forced to waive one player like Ylonen, Armia, Pezz, or Lindstrom) to be cap compliant

 

[Deus ex machina]

The idea is not to use off-season LTIR.

I understand that putting Price on off-season LTIR is not a good idea because they would lose a lot of potential cap space, but not with Dvorak.
So what's the difference?

If you don't want to send down Slaf, Guhle and Barron at the start of the season because of their bonuses, there's not a lot of options left to be cap compliant without using off-season LTIR.

 

[morhilane]

Here's our 22 man roster on Day 1 (ignore lines) of the season without using any LTIR.
This version has us over the cap by $361k. Looks easily solved by paper transactioning Slaf but reading comments from some posters that might impact his performance bonus (need more details if someone could explain). Otherwise we're forced to waive one player like Ylonen, Armia, Pezz, or Lindstrom) to be cap compliant
View attachment 747904

If you send down Slaf, then put someone on LTIR and recall back Slaf, his cap hit become $4.45m because his potential performance bonus gets added to his normal cap hit.

 

[Deus ex machina]

People really need top stop with LTIR this, LTIR that. LTIR is bad for cap management (stop accruing cap space, performance bonus are applied to cap hits on recalls and a bunch of other things) and teams would prefer to avoid it, especially those with a lots of ELC like the Habs. Pre-season LTIR is even worst with how it fix your starting cap to how much money you have on the roster at season start.

LTIR is bad unless you got a team without ELCs and need to replace a mid-season injury that will miss the remaining of the season.

I don't think they have much of a choice.

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

They need to trade one of Armia or Allen to avoid the 18 players situation and wouldn't need to put Price on LTIR at all if they managed that.

There are no takers, you place either or on waivers and save a few bucks.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I understand that putting Price on off-season LTIR is not a good idea because they would lose a lot of potential cap space, but not with Dvorak.
So what's the difference?

If you don't want to send down Slaf, Guhle and Barron at the start of the season because of their bonuses, there's not a lot of options left to be cap compliant without using off-season LTIR.

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Pre-Game Talk: - 2023-2024 Habs Rookie Camp & Training Camp

there's literally no one on this board that would want to see the Habs stop rushing prospects to the NHL more then me. I can vouch for this. Lol.

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Gustave]

For FUN; considering it’s Sunday morning after a dreadful two game performance…

Would you be down to acquire both Zegras and Pinto?

The cost would be intense (1st pick 2024, 1st pick 2025, Owen Beck, probably a yound D and a couple more, just ballparking it), but wouldn’t it fit the whole age group better?

I’m always down for entertainment and this would provide a certain stability to our F core going into the future. My guess is we aren’t necessarily picking someone that much better than Zegras in the draft, and Pinto fits the 3rd line role effectively rendering Beck moot.

What say you?