Speculation: More Moves Coming?

[Scriptor]

There aren’t many examples of agents going into GMing directly and succeeding. In typical Habs fashion, the organization thinks it is smarter than everyone else. I would caution against the “he knows what he is doing” line of rationalization. Bergevin was a veteran NHL player and widely known as a good, funny teammate and had positive experience with the successful Blackhawks organization. How did that work out?

Gorton was fired by his former organization. Adam Nicholas was unceremoniously allowed to leave his former organization. Bobrov doesn’t haven’t a particularly good reputation. MSL never coached pro-hockey in his life. We don’t need to pretend they’re all best-in-class in order to feel good about ourselves.

But that’s besides the point. Habs fans in general worship the organization, they (rightfully) have a religious devotion to the CH. What it does is it makes partisans and zealots out of fans.

You can be an anti-[former GM] partisan and then find yourself pro-[current GM] out of sheer desperation to feel good and positive about the team you worship. I’ve noticed this big time from my time on Twitter. Conversely, some big time Bergevin equivocators who attacked others as Subbanistas and caused so much trouble within the Habs commentary space have been cautious about the post-Bergevin Habs.

So you’re right that fans don’t fit in neat boxes but in general everybody here loves the Habs so damn much that it borders on fanatical and irrational. For example, I think it is lunacy to so openly want Shane Wright and Matvei Michkov’s demise and failure but that hasn’t stopped many commentators (and those in the media too, from Grant McCagg and up) from prancing on what they think are the graves of those teenager’s careers.

What matters most is Hughes demonstrating he knows how to build a relevant team. So far he hasn’t added the players to improve the roster — so, imo, the jury’s out. Not good but not bad, TBD.

Hilarious take on Fan insanity.

Of course, you can be completely sane and just shut down anything the Habs' management does instead.

Every GM gets fired, even those who have won Cups before, BTW. The question, from the moment they are hired, is not 'IF', but 'WHEN', rather.

Skepticism is easy to defend until we win a Cup. Then, continued skepticism will be easy to defend until we win another Cup, and so on. It just doesn't add much to the conversation since just says the opposite of everything else that is said, like a droning, "No it isn't," as an answer to anything proposed.

Great work not saying anything relevant.

I don't think anything you are saying is exclusive to any organization. It's closer to the norm with respect to the relationship of fans with pro sports.

Speaking generally... New regime comes in. Commence honeymoon phase. Shit generally doesn't stink. Then, the deeper the tenure goes, the more critical things get, and then it gets to the point where the same regime is considered the dumbest on the planet. It's sensationalized at each phase. I've seen it rinsed and repeated enough times that it's better to keep an even keel at this stage rather than to be overly critical or jumping for joy on a long term project in its infancy.

This regime will come and go. The hope is that before their time comes, they will have at least built something that the fans can enjoy.

As far as player agents joining the GM game, I think it's more of a newer phenomena so not much sample size. Mike Gillis was the first one that comes to my mind and that was only around 15 years ago. He had his fall like most others, but he also had the greatest stretch in Canucks history as far being a contender goes, and their status in the league at the time. He brought some fresh new concepts at the time. One example was the employment of sleep doctors, which I thought was interesting as a west coast team that travels frequently.

A success story was Patrick Roy's agent taking over the helm as GM in Colorado.

 

[salbutera]

Hilarious take on Fan insanity.

Of course, you can be completely sane and just shut down anything the Habs' management does instead.

Every GM gets fired, even those who have won Cups before, BTW. The question, from the moment they are hired, is not 'IF', but 'WHEN', rather.

Skepticism is easy to defend until we win a Cup. Then, continued skepticism will be easy to defend until we win another Cup, and so on. It just doesn't add much to the conversation since just says the opposite of everything else that is said, like a droning, "No it isn't," as an answer to anything proposed.

Great work not saying anything relevant.


A success story was Patrick Roy's agent taking over the helm as GM in Colorado.

Only because he had an unlimited budget to spend - once the significant advantage was removed / cap came into being, Lacroix sucked donkey dong in his GM functions

 

[Scriptor]

Only because he had an unlimited budget to spend - once the cap came into being Lacroix sucked donkey dong

His infatuation for donkeys wasn't known at theme of the hire, but, it is true that many GMs failed in a Cap world where they were better before. Assembling talent is one thing. Assembling talent within a financial framework is another.

Most GMs also have Capologists (Cap experts) as part of their management teams today.

 

[BaseballCoach]

That's a lot of f...king around for a lousy third round pick. Then he's still going to eat up 3.5m when Carey goes on LTIR. Pearson had a lot of major surgeries. He's not going to be able to fight. So, no help for Wifi there. He's going to take ice time from young player. A lot of negative there for a pick who's never going to make it.

I don't mind the f...ing around if it gets us what we want and we can reverse the demotions the next day if we want. No problem at all with it.

What drives me nuts is that last month we were told we had to eat a lot of salary on Petry because waiving someone like Armia to get cap compliant was not nice and we can't do not nice and we MUST get Price unàder the cap before season start. In fact, an unholy fan alliance of tankists with Hughes-"culture"-promoters agreed that it's genius to not use Petry to improve the team.

Now it's suddenly genius to honor a no-bury promise to a guy with no Hab history (unlike Petry) by taking on ANOTHER non-Hab with an almost double contract, and compelling us to do the very not nice things it was genius to avoid a month ago.

Big picture, DeSmith was potentially and quite plausibly our best netminder. In no universe is Pearson potentially our best forward. Not even in our top 6 if his hand is perfect. But his cap is almost double deSmith's on the same term.

I'm wondering if Hughes got the word from Molson and Gorton to go tank this year on purpose by handicapping MSL and ignoring the pleas of Suzuki, Caufield and Monahan to get more good players (they suggested Ryan O'Reilly for example but he signed elsewhere).

Now if the retort is going to be that the market was not good for Petry and deSmith now, then WAIT!!!!

Waiting is what Hughes did in 2022 when Petry first asked out, and that patience was widely praised. It got us Matheson, and it got Hughes huge respect and goodwill.

But he's blowing all the goodwill with me lately. I don't support tanking, and I don't support the halt to our build that seems to have taken place. Accumulating a few later round 2025 picks doesn't justify the shackles Hugo are putting on this team now.

 

[ReHabs]

Hilarious take on Fan insanity.

Of course, you can be completely sane and just shut down anything the Habs' management does instead.

Thankfully I haven’t seen anyone, much less myself, shut down anything the Habs have done.

MSL’s hire and the Caufield extension are both terrific moves.

The problem is many fans expect full praise at all time and evaluations that don’t produce the necessary outcome (eg “Hughes nailed it yet again! We’re so lucky!”) blow their fuse.

I would think this all or nothing approach would be left behind with the smouldering ruins of Bergevin Wins All His Trades.

Every GM gets fired, even those who have won Cups before, BTW. The question, from the moment they are hired, is not 'IF', but 'WHEN', rather.

Skepticism is easy to defend until we win a Cup. Then, continued skepticism will be easy to defend until we win another Cup, and so on. It just doesn't add much to the conversation since just says the opposite of everything else that is said, like a droning, "No it isn't," as an answer to anything proposed.

Great work not saying anything relevant.

Try some healthy skepticism my man, it’s good for you.

I think I’ve done as much as anyone to support my arguments and develop them. If you don’t like them, that’s fair enough.

I'm wondering if Hughes got the word from Molson and Gorton to go tank this year on purpose by handicapping MSL and ignoring the pleas of Suzuki, Caufield and Monahan to get more good players (they suggested Ryan O'Reilly for example but he signed elsewhere).

Can you elaborate about this? It’s the first I’ve ever heard of this topic.

 

[JoelWarlord]

This whole thing is nuts.

We moved Hoffman out and got a 2/3D and a goalie with a lifetime .912 SVP then gave them both away AND took on salary AND used a retention slot for 2 years.

Instead of Hoffman and Pitlick costing around 5.5M, we now have Pearson and Petry's retention at around the same number and received a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, Legare, and Lindstrom. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

You have got to get over this DeSmith stuff. He's a career backup, being our "best goalie" is not anything noteworthy. We were never going to carry three goalies, they aren't going to trade 26 y/o Montembeault, and we can't trade Allen. Waiving Allen to keep expiring contract DeSmith around doesn't make any sense when a 3rd is already about as good as we could expect to get for him at the deadline.

I genuinely don't understand how such a boring series of moves has got you so wound up. I understand the people that hate the Slafkovsky/Reinbacher picks, but I genuinely can't fathom turning Hoffman and Pitlick into a few picks and a couple prospects + the Petry retention being the thing that sours you on the FO. "Shackles" on this team because of 2.3M next year and expiring Tanner Pearson, come on.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I'm wondering if Hughes got the word from Molson and Gorton to go tank this year on purpose by handicapping MSL and ignoring the pleas of Suzuki, Caufield and Monahan to get more good players (they suggested Ryan O'Reilly for example but he signed elsewhere).

Can you elaborate about this? It’s the first I’ve ever heard of this topic.

Something that was reported by a beat writer after the Caufield signing, to add colour to Cole's words that he made a reasonable deal so that the team could have the flexibility to surround him and Nick with more good players over time. I just forget which beat writer it was.

 

[DAChampion]

I genuinely don't understand how such a boring series of moves has got you so wound up. I understand the people that hate the Slafkovsky/Reinbacher picks, but I genuinely can't fathom turning Hoffman and Pitlick into a few picks and a couple prospects + the Petry retention being the thing that sours you on the FO. "Shackles" on this team because of 2.3M next year and expiring Tanner Pearson, come on.

True. We can be for or against these minor movies but ultimately they're minor moves.

In the case of Baseball Coach, I think he simply wanted Petry on the roster.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Instead of Hoffman and Pitlick costing around 5.5M, we now have Pearson and Petry's retention at around the same number and received a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, Legare, and Lindstrom. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

You have got to get over this DeSmith stuff. He's a career backup, being our "best goalie" is not anything noteworthy. We were never going to carry three goalies, they aren't going to trade 26 y/o Montembeault, and we can't trade Allen. Waiving Allen to keep expiring contract DeSmith around doesn't make any sense when a 3rd is already about as good as we could expect to get for him at the deadline.

I genuinely don't understand how such a boring series of moves has got you so wound up. I understand the people that hate the Slafkovsky/Reinbacher picks, but I genuinely can't fathom turning Hoffman and Pitlick into a few picks and a couple prospects + the Petry retention being the thing that sours you on the FO. "Shackles" on this team because of 2.3M next year and expiring Tanner Pearson, come on.

Pitlick cost nothing on the cap, and so I did not count Lindstrom either. Anyone under $1.150M whom you are willing to waive is neither a burden now, nor before he was traded.

And thanks for reminding me so forcefully that the supposedly rebuilding team that you and I both cheer for is about to refuse to give a 24 yo goaltender with two straight good years in Laval any chance to make the club, out of stubborn loyalty to a declining expensive career backup with poor stats last year and frequent injuries. What happens after we lose Primeau on waivers if Allen gets hurt? Dobes to the NHL quick?

If Vancouver really thought Silovs is not as good as DeSmith, then we should have asked for Silovs instead of the 3rd rounder. Then we would have injury protection. And don't tell me that Vancouver would not be so stupid as to give up on a young goalie with potential, because apparently it is genius for us to do so.

 

[Frenchy]

Yes Marc. Trades are hard.

I was thinking the same thing , yesterday when i heard about the trade.
Damn it , i was told for years that trades are hard... they doesnt seems so hard with Hugo

 

[DAChampion]

I like these moves, but I can recognize a scenario where they turn out badly:

One of Allen and Montembeault is injured, which is subsequent to Primeau being lost to waivers.

 

[Miller Time]

Yes Marc. Trades are hard.

Lol

Thanks for the laugh

Kudos, finally a post of at least some value

 

[BaseballCoach]

I like these moves, but I can recognize a scenario where they turn out badly:

One of Allen and Montembeault is injured, which is subsequent to Primeau being lost to waivers.

LOL, a scenario with at least a 50% chance of happening (70% we lose Primeau on waivers and 75% that one of the roster goalies gets hurt).

If only we had another NHL-experienced keeper .......

 

[Miller Time]

I like these moves, but I can recognize a scenario where they turn out badly:

One of Allen and Montembeault is injured, which is subsequent to Primeau being lost to waivers.

Has there ever been a trade without a scenario that turns out badly?

LOL, a scenario with at least a 50% chance of happening (70% we lose Primeau on waivers and 75% that one of the roster goalies gets hurt).

If only we had another NHL-experienced keeper .......

Great point.

Wonder how a team would ever deal with losing a starting goalie to injury.

Maybe Vegas has a suggestion

 

[Frenchy]

I like these moves, but I can recognize a scenario where they turn out badly:

One of Allen and Montembeault is injured, which is subsequent to Primeau being lost to waivers.

I agree, if we put Primeau on waivers we are taking a huge risk . Pretty sure that a team like Colorado who are looking for a cheap backup would pick him in a heartbeat.

 

[DAChampion]

What are the odds of Primeau being picked up if he's placed on waivers?

 

[Scriptor]

A huge risk with Primeau?

Not sure he has a huge future in Montreal to begin with. Plenty of Gs as good, or better than Primeau regularly get exposed to waivers.

Is there another solution than placing Primeau on waivers? Hughes is starting the season with Montembeault and Allen as a platoon.

Yes, we risk losing Primeau, but just how much of a loss will that be, that's the question?

 

[Miller Time]

A huge risk with Primeau?

Not sure he has a huge future in Montreal to begin with. Plenty of Gs as good, or better than Primeau regularly get exposed to waivers.

Is there another solution than placing Primeau on waivers? Hughes is starting the season with Montembeault and Allen as a platoon.

Yes, we risk losing Primeau, but just how much of a loss will that be, that's the question?

Exactly.

Only way he'd be a "loss" is if he suddenly started playing like a solid #1, outperforming both Allen and Monty. If so, trading Monty becomes an easy alternative to recoup some value.

If he's about where he left off last season, he's just another mid-20s goalie shuffling around the league trying to find a footing (not unlike how we snagged Monty). Those type of goalies are available every year via waivers or minor trades. Very rare for them to turn into the kipprussoff-type late 20's star.

The attachment & fear of loss seems to be tied more to familiarity than anything else

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Capfriendly seems to think there's more moves coming.

At this point isn't it more advantageous to use up all of Price's LTIR ?

So another cap dump deal potentially ?

 

[eklund the clown]

What are the odds of Primeau being picked up if he's placed on waivers?

Little or none. If he is on waivers from us how good can he be?Why did we draft so many goalies this year? No loss if he is picked up or not.

 

[Ezpz]

Capfriendly seems to think there's more moves coming.

At this point isn't it more advantageous to use up all of Price's LTIR ?

So another cap dump deal potentially ?

We have 13 guys that aren't waiver eligible at forward and then Slaf and RHP too. Pezz can probably be waived and sent to Laval, but do we really believe Armia and Pearson will be the 13th/14th forwards? The NHL has a vet fetish you have to respect if you want free agents to ever sign with your team. I feel like someone has to be moved out.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

We have 13 guys that aren't waiver eligible at forward and then Slaf and RHP too. Pezz can probably be waived and sent to Laval, but do we really believe Armia and Pearson will be the 13th/14th forwards? The NHL has a vet fetish you have to respect if you want free agents to ever sign with your team. I feel like someone has to be moved out.

I'm not sure Pezzetta will get waived.

He may be less skilled than the others, but he brings something none of them bring aside from Anderson who doesn't really show it anymore and I'd say he likely gers picked up.

 

[Rapala]

I was thinking the same thing , yesterday when i heard about the trade.
Damn it , i was told for years that trades are hard... they doesnt seems so hard with Hugo

LOL
We should rename this thead "Next Move" in the spirit of accuracy.

 

[JoelWarlord]

And thanks for reminding me so forcefully that the supposedly rebuilding team that you and I both cheer for is about to refuse to give a 24 yo goaltender with two straight good years in Laval any chance to make the club, out of stubborn loyalty to a declining expensive career backup with poor stats last year and frequent injuries.

It's a shame that Primeau likely ends up being the odd man out, but it is what it is. He hasn't proven anything in the NHL and Montembeault won his spot. I hope we don't lose him but if we do then oh well, that's how we got Montembealt in the first place, it happens.

It's also irrelevant in this discussion if your position was that we should have kept DeSmith as keeping him creates the same problem even if we could snap our fingers and have the Allen contract disappear.

What happens after we lose Primeau on waivers if Allen gets hurt? Dobes to the NHL quick?

Depending on timing Dobes plays 1 game or we just pick up another scrub. Not really worried about finding a stopgap #3 goalie if necessary.

If Vancouver really thought Silovs is not as good as DeSmith, then we should have asked for Silovs instead of the 3rd rounder. Then we would have injury protection. And don't tell me that Vancouver would not be so stupid as to give up on a young goalie with potential, because apparently it is genius for us to do so.

Silovs is two years younger and is waiver exempt. Completely different situation to Primeau and likely not someone Vancouver was going to trade. On their end this trade is about saving a little on the cap and replacing Spencer Martin.

Anyway, again I just don't understand how these moves would make you so frustrated. It's just boring asset accumulation, they turned a couple scrub forwards into one scrub forward, one scrub youngish defenceman, a retained cap hit, and some picks.

 

[Jaynki]

I like these moves, but I can recognize a scenario where they turn out badly:

One of Allen and Montembeault is injured, which is subsequent to Primeau being lost to waivers.

Dont think its that tough to find a Desmith caliber goaltender.

Van did it mainly for the cap space. We did it mainly for the pick.