[MOD WARNING POST #598] Should Dave Tippett Be Fired Before Next Season?

[Bonsai Tree]

This whole debate to me seems like arguing about yesterday's weather. PhoPhan is spot on. It would be nice, though, to get a new set of assistant coaches.

 

[hbk]

I was much angrier at Tippett last year after they let Maloney go then I am now. I've been impressed by the transactions and development. As a whole I'm happy with the direction.

 

[rt]

Crouse has shown significant development and has Keller looked remotely physically ready for NHL? If that's all you have then Tippett has had a pretty successful development season.

I think Crouse has been irreparably stunted. Keller is fit for trash time. Yes. And that's not all I listed. And let's not act like Duclair is something minor. He alone is enough of a case for me. And anyway, my MAIN point isn't about youth. It's about losses. He racked up an inconceivable amount of them over the last half decade. It's just been an absolutely staggering amount of losses. Year after year, roster after roster. Every player but three has turned over. The entire management and coaching staff around him has turns over. The only two constants we've had are Dave Tippett and losses.

 

[SniperHF]

There are no reasonable arguments to the contrary.

If someone writes out a list of pros and cons, weights them differently than you do, and comes to a different conclusion; that's a perfectly reasonable argument. There are certainly plenty of unreasonable arguments but that wasn't the point.

The job security Tippett has managed in the face of historical awfulness is unprecedented.

The way things are always done is not necessarily evidence either. Red flag? Sure.

Is Dvo doing better than expected? Considered one of the top prospects in the world coming into this season. Great speed, good head, good motor, great shot, good hands, good defensively... did people expect him to do poorly?

Not much point in arguing what different people expected, but I think that's basically what is happening here. I don't think Dvorak is overperforming my expectations at all. He has been repeatedly over 2 years described as the most NHL ready prospect in the system by two different GMs and a variety of assistants.

 

[IPreferPi]

I voted yes, but that said Playfair needs to be finally shown the door before Tippett. Brown also needs to figure out what to do with our PP.

Crouse has shown significant development and has Keller looked remotely physically ready for NHL?

Crouse has shown he can be an effective, physical defensive forward. But that really wasn't the question with him because he already showed that promise in junior - the question was his offense. Right now the way he's being developed and utilized we'll be lucky if he ever cracks 30 points. Which frankly is a waste of someone who was rated as a top 10 talent in the 2015 draft - and that's on the team, not the player.

 

[MP]

"Head coach" isn't a tenured position or a lifetime appointment. Most coaches only last three or four years, right? All things equal?

So it's worth asking why Tippett has been kept on for so long. Has he shown any special ability to get results despite mediocre, or sub-mediocre, lineups? Has he shown any particular aptitude for developing talent (aside, perhaps, from apparent slam-dunks like OEL)? Has he coached a play style that, if nothing else, is exciting to watch? Has he been an ambassador for the team in some other capacity that would lead one to overlook the on-ice struggles of the last several years?

For years now, I haven't seen any of those things. He may be a perfectly good coach, taken on his own, but what does that matter if his skills don't translate into real-world performance?

And the million-dollar question: are there coaches available this summer who would do a better job with the kids? *Or be a better fit for a rebuilding team in some other way?

 

[Guest]

I hate to be on the fence, but my answer is very conditional.

I think ownership is probably the biggest problem right now. I will openly admit I have not followed that as much lately and I have seen some talk that Barroway may buyout the other owners. With the current ownership structure I do not think it would make much of a difference if they let Tippett go or kept him this coming year.

If we are getting new ownership led by Barroway, and they are not married to Tippett like the last group was, then I say most definitely Tip should be gone. This team needs a progressive direction, and Tip is a major roadblock on the road to that destination.

Either way, this was not a playoff year, and neither will be next year. The real goal right now is development and to try to get as much as possible out of that development. While this year was not a total write off developmentally, I do not think it was an optimized year of development either.

 

[hbk]

I think Crouse has been irreparably stunted. Keller is fit for trash time. Yes. And that's not all I listed. And let's not act like Duclair is something minor. He alone is enough of a case for me. And anyway, my MAIN point isn't about youth. It's about losses. He racked up an inconceivable amount of them over the last half decade. It's just been an absolutely staggering amount of losses. Year after year, roster after roster. Every player but three has turned over. The entire management and coaching staff around him has turns over. The only two constants we've had are Dave Tippett and losses.

Make the argument that Kingstons system was better. I can't.

Duclair was a mistake. I don't place all the blame on Tippett's shoulders but separating Duclair from Domi was a huge mistake.

This year was not about points. It was about youth development and Tippett earned his get out of jail free by delivering it. If you thought that the team point totals mattered this year then you misread the tea leaves.

 

[XX]

It was about youth development and Tippett earned his get out of jail free by delivering it.

Who developed and took a significant step forward? Lawson "5 goals" Crouse?

It took trading Hanzal for Dvorak to get the time and consistent linemates he was owed at the beginning of the year.

 

[Jakey53]

Do you have any criticisms to offer on this franchise? I would think you could find something given how terrible the team has been for a half decade and the nonsense that has been swirling around them for almost twice that time. I feel like your default stance over the years has been "change nothing" until something has been changed and then it's "that was a justifiable change, but no need for any further changes". I mean specifically with rebuild versus don't rebuild and then don't fire Maloney versus fire Maloney. I don't mean this as a personal attack. I'm actually trying to understand you better. What are some things specifically that you were upset with the franchise over? And I mean at the time, not with hindsight.

There you go again, going back half a decade or more. No coach or GM, including DT and DM should be judged on their record on the circumstances at the time which was beyond their control. As far as I'm concerned, both did an outstanding job considering what they were up against. Since IA bought the team, they have put DT and Chyaka on a more level playing field, and we have seen positive results from more scouts, better draft picks etc. but it takes time for these prospects to mature.What pissed me off the most about this ownership, looking from the outside in which usually doesn't give you a clear picture, is the BS with Glendale, but on the flip side I feel the COG are as much to blame. I also would have started the rebuild one year earlier, but I understand why they waited that one year. As far as criticizing the franchise, it goes back to when the team first came here and every owner until IA, who is at least trying and giving the team a chance at success. Every owner, every politician, every city involved has made this a three ring circus and makes the state look like a bunch of ---holes. There is plenty of blame to go around. I prefer to never look back as it does no one any good, rather look ahead to the future. This is the most I've been excited for a team since the Tkachuk, Roenick era.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

There you go again, going back half a decade or more. No coach or GM, including DT and DM should be judged on their record on the circumstances at the time which was beyond their control. As far as I'm concerned, both did an outstanding job considering what they were up against. Since IA bought the team, they have put DT and Chyaka on a more level playing field, and we have seen positive results from more scouts, better draft picks etc. but it takes time for these prospects to mature.What pissed me off the most about this ownership, looking from the outside in which usually doesn't give you a clear picture, is the BS with Glendale, but on the flip side I feel the COG are as much to blame. I also would have started the rebuild one year earlier, but I understand why they waited that one year. As far as criticizing the franchise, it goes back to when the team first came here and every owner until IA, who is at least trying and giving the team a chance at success. Every owner, every politician, every city involved has made this a three ring circus and makes the state look like a bunch of ---holes. There is plenty of blame to go around. I prefer to never look back as it does no one any good, rather look ahead to the future. This is the most I've been excited for a team since the Tkachuk, Roenick era.

A smart business evaluates the history of its employees and accountability is still there regardless of the state of the business.

 

[Snarky Coyote]

I think it is time to move on from DT, its partially because of the way he has handled his business this year (consistently underachievement and underdevelopment), partially all the bad luck this team has had for his tenure and partially because something needs to be done, and he is the easiest thing to change. He is a good coach, just not in his element at the moment and ownership needs to send some inkling that the last few years are unacceptable.

 

[Jakey53]

A smart business evaluates the history of its employees and accountability is still there regardless of the state of the business.

You don't get it and you never will.

 

[rt]

There you go again, going back half a decade or more. No coach or GM, including DT and DM should be judged on their record on the circumstances at the time which was beyond their control. As far as I'm concerned, both did an outstanding job considering what they were up against. Since IA bought the team, they have put DT and Chyaka on a more level playing field, and we have seen positive results from more scouts, better draft picks etc. but it takes time for these prospects to mature.What pissed me off the most about this ownership, looking from the outside in which usually doesn't give you a clear picture, is the BS with Glendale, but on the flip side I feel the COG are as much to blame. I also would have started the rebuild one year earlier, but I understand why they waited that one year. As far as criticizing the franchise, it goes back to when the team first came here and every owner until IA, who is at least trying and giving the team a chance at success. Every owner, every politician, every city involved has made this a three ring circus and makes the state look like a bunch of ---holes. There is plenty of blame to go around. I prefer to never look back as it does no one any good, rather look ahead to the future. This is the most I've been excited for a team since the Tkachuk, Roenick era.

Okay, I'll attempt to fish an answer out of that.

Jake's criticisms:

1. Maybe the rebuild could've started one year earlier but totally understandable that it didn't.
2. The "BS" with Glendale, but that's mostly Glendale's fault.
3. Stuff before IA was bad but IA is trying and that's appreciated.

Somebody get a fire extinguisher!!!

 

[rt]

Make the argument that Kingstons system was better. I can't.

Duclair was a mistake. I don't place all the blame on Tippett's shoulders but separating Duclair from Domi was a huge mistake.

This year was not about points. It was about youth development and Tippett earned his get out of jail free by delivering it. If you thought that the team point totals mattered this year then you misread the tea leaves.

Why shouldn't Tippett be able to wipe the slate clean every game 82 and have a new free pass every game 1?

 

[XX]

Those in favor of keeping him should give Dave Tippett specific reasons as to why he should be given the longest leash in pro sports, rather than citing things a generic, average coach can do.

I'd be more than willing to bet that a new voice with a fresh approach would have had the team playing much better than bottom 3.

 

[Jakey53]

I voted yes, but that said Playfair needs to be finally shown the door before Tippett. Brown also needs to figure out what to do with our PP.



Crouse has shown he can be an effective, physical defensive forward. But that really wasn't the question with him because he already showed that promise in junior - the question was his offense. Right now the way he's being developed and utilized we'll be lucky if he ever cracks 30 points. Which frankly is a waste of someone who was rated as a top 10 talent in the 2015 draft - and that's on the team, not the player.

Not every player is going to get 50 + pts. in the NHL, and I really don't give a flying f--- where a player gets drafted as it is a crap shoot at best. Crouse never had big pts. in junior and I don't expect he will in the NHL, and I expect he was drafted because of his size, speed and the way he plays the game, not his production.

 

[rt]

Not every player is going to get 50 + pts. in the NHL, and I really don't give a flying f--- where a player gets drafted as it is a crap shoot at best. Crouse never had big pts. in junior and I don't expect he will in the NHL, and I expect he was drafted because of his size, speed and the way he plays the game, not his production.

He would've had big points in junior this year if he had been playing there, where he belonged. And then you COULD expect points in the NHL. You're right, you can't now. But that is BECAUSE of the way he was handled.

 

[Jakey53]

Okay, I'll attempt to fish an answer out of that.

Jake's criticisms:

1. Maybe the rebuild could've started one year earlier but totally understandable that it didn't.
2. The "BS" with Glendale, but that's mostly Glendale's fault.
3. Stuff before IA was bad but IA is trying and that's appreciated.

Somebody get a fire extinguisher!!!

Give it a break. You have your mind set and it wouldn't matter what anyone says to you won't change your mind. Like I said, this thread is stupid to begin with and all has been discussed until the cows come home.

 

[Jakey53]

He would've had big points in junior this year if he had been playing there, where he belonged. And then you COULD expect points in the NHL. You're right, you can't now. But that is BECAUSE of the way he was handled.

Yeah yeah yeah,and if we had a new coach at the start of this year and he kept Crouse you would be singing his praise and saying how great Crouse has developed this year, which he has.

 

[hbk]

He would've had big points in junior this year if he had been playing there, where he belonged. And then you COULD expect points in the NHL. You're right, you can't now. But that is BECAUSE of the way he was handled.

Not in Kingstons system. See last year for proof.

Kingston scored 179 total goals this year. They play a defensive system that makes Tippett's system look like firewagon hockey.

 

[Jakey53]

Not in Kingstons system. See last year for proof.

Kingston scored 179 total goals this year. They play a defensive system that makes Tippett's system look like girewagon hockey.

What are you talking about? rt said he would get BIG pts. in junior this year. I would think rt knows what he is talking about.

Seriously, I would expect Crouse to hit pretty good numbers as it would have been his fourth year. I was surprised when we kept him, but happy with his play and development and now understand why we kept him.

 

[PerpetualTankYear]

I would like to see the team move in an opposite direction of Tippett.

I'm not going to say Tippett is a moronic person, or a bad coach. I think he's great for some teams (like us in 2012, or the LA Kings now) but not with the 2017 Coyotes.

Tippett is great at getting big slow vets to win. Not great at developing youth and playing a faster skill game over a slow trap game.

Tippett is a great square peg, and the Coyotes are currently a round hole.

 

[hbk]

Why shouldn't Tippett be able to wipe the slate clean every game 82 and have a new free pass every game 1?

Who said anything about a free pass? Grading organization on the moves and play of its youth and we took huge steps this year as a franchise. I just think that's more relevant than a player we traded 5 years ago.

 

[hbk]

Those in favor of keeping him should give Dave Tippett specific reasons as to why he should be given the longest leash in pro sports, rather than citing things a generic, average coach can do.

I'd be more than willing to bet that a new voice with a fresh approach would have had the team playing much better than bottom 3.

We chose not to make that move last year. We chose Tippett over Maloney and gave him heavy influence in the direction going forward. I liked the trades and have enjoyed watching the young guys evolve. Maybe I'm alone on an island here. If you move Tippett you dump Chayka and we start brand new. I like the way things are going and would prefer not to make a change. I like the direction. Doesn't mean I love every decision Tippett makes. That being said we made huge strides this year. I'm excited for next year.