[MOD WARNING POST #598] Should Dave Tippett Be Fired Before Next Season?

[Jakey53]

So let's say Tippett is fired on Monday. How will you react?

Like I said, I could care less who the coach is as long as the team is here. I would give a new coach support for a minimum of three years on a rebuilding team. We just completed two years of our rebuild which is the most difficult, so you add three years to that, we should be in the playoffs and contending. Rebuilding takes time and patience that most people here don't realize. I might not like who they hire, but he deserves a chance to prove himself.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Same question as above. Walk me through your reaction if he's canned on Monday.

I would be a bit sad, because of my belief that this wasn't his fault. I wouldn't be surprised in the least, because I know that you can't fire the team, only the coach or GM, and they already fired the GM.

I would also be concerned about who would come in to coach this team. What quality coach would be willing to coach for these bozo owners? We could be stuck with Dallas Eakins or Claude Noel.

Our society is far too concerned about finding guilty to punish and not nearly concerned enough about fixing the problem. I don't see Tippett as the problem, just the easiest target to pin blame on and punish.

 

[GiveAFlyingPuck]

There wasn't a don't care option. That's where I am.

 

[hbk]

Same question as above. Walk me through your reaction if he's canned on Monday.

Wouldn't that reinforce the gong show statement? Personally I would question direction of franchise if Tippett is canned on Monday.

 

[Jakey53]

Wouldn't that reinforce the gong show statement? Personally I would question direction of franchise if Tippett is canned on Monday.

I agree.

 

[rt]

All the good things are in spite of Dave Tippett. All the bad things are because of him.

May not be true, but it sure is easy to remember.

Yeah. I need to curb the pretend shock value hyperbole. All I'm getting is the same in return and none of it is helpful.

Here's my new take: I don't think any coach can recover from having his ass kicked for six straight years and become effective again. No matter the reasons for the losses, I think Tippett has been ruined by them. I think we've reached a point where almost any new face is an upgrade if for no other reason than it's just not Dave Tippett.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

rt, can you list Tippett's mistakes for me?

 

[rt]

Like I said, I could care less who the coach is as long as the team is here. I would give a new coach support for a minimum of three years on a rebuilding team. We just completed two years of our rebuild which is the most difficult, so you add three years to that, we should be in the playoffs and contending. Rebuilding takes time and patience that most people here don't realize. I might not like who they hire, but he deserves a chance to prove himself.

Do you have any criticisms to offer on this franchise? I would think you could find something given how terrible the team has been for a half decade and the nonsense that has been swirling around them for almost twice that time. I feel like your default stance over the years has been "change nothing" until something has been changed and then it's "that was a justifiable change, but no need for any further changes". I mean specifically with rebuild versus don't rebuild and then don't fire Maloney versus fire Maloney. I don't mean this as a personal attack. I'm actually trying to understand you better. What are some things specifically that you were upset with the franchise over? And I mean at the time, not with hindsight.

 

[SniperHF]

There's a few layers here:

A. Does Tippett deserve to be fired for THIS season? No not really.

B. Does Tippett deserve to be fired for past seasons, I'd lean toward yes but there are reasonable arguments to the contrary.

C. In the circumstances of the current front office, is there any reason for Tippett to be fired right now? No.

D. I hate almost everything about the Coach/VP role and would blow that up as soon as possible, if I were in charge yes he'd be gone. That's basically the only main reason I've ever been pro firing him and that hasn't changed at all.

Wouldn't that reinforce the gong show statement? Personally I would question direction of franchise if Tippett is canned on Monday.

I think that can be adequately explained if it happened. Barroway buys out minority owners including Tippett benefactor Drummond, points out that Chayka has done a fine job and doesn't need the helping hand he was initially promised, and the decision to go with a different style of coach based on the mix of players has been made.

If everything else stayed basically the same but Tipppett was shown the door that would not really concern me on the gong show level in the right circumstances.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

rt, can you list Tippett's mistakes for me?

Here's a short list of his mistakes.

Pushing for Mike Riberio.
Pushing for Dave Moss to be resigned as this player single-handily screwed us out of Jack Eichel.
Unfair treatment of youth and vets when it comes to poor play.

For the 1st 2 I wouldn't put all of the blame on Tippett as Maloney was Tippett's puppet/tool until Maloney finally decided to grow a pair and object to anything that Tippett wanted and that included refusing the offer for the 3OV pick to acquire Doug Hamilton.

 

[rt]

rt, can you list Tippett's mistakes for me?

I think harm is a better word than mistake. I don't care about intent in this context. So what harm has he done?

Alienating Turris. Though we do have Dvorak to show for this in VERY round about and VERY lucky way that Tippett deserves no credit for. 99 times out of 100 we don't end up with that result.

Taking firm, public anti-rebuild and youth movement stances with the media for two years longer than appropriate. This influenced management decisions that delayed progress unnecessarily.

His constant proclivity to play favorites and not base playing time on merit or long term growth but only on his pet project plumber vets. This has slowed development. Also a culture killer.

His system is boring, predictable and easily mitigated. It's also ill-fitting for young talent. This has caused excessive losses and potentially ******** development. Also a culture killer.

He managed to get Maloney fired and himself promoted and long term, high dollar extensions for himself and his whole worthless staff. We are now saddled with a bunch of expensive losers that we can't cut ties with for anything less than a small fortune.

****ing up Duclair is also an unsavory little chapter.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

For me it's simple. I don't care what kind of coach Tippett is or how he's received in the room or what his reputation is.

In general terms, the only reason to extend a coach long-term is if he is producing definite success and tangible results, like Scotty Bowman in Montreal or Mike Babcock in Detroit. The blunt fact of the matter is that almost all coaches are in about the same orbit in terms of effectiveness, strategy, and tactics at the NHL level. What distinguishes them is the chemistry between them and their team - or the lack thereof.

I don't blame Dave Tippett for everything bad that has happened with this team. But I do think that on any other team in the league, he'd have been fired a long time ago for no other reason than there needs to be a culture change around the Coyotes. But he's sacrosanct with the Coyotes because the owners are too poor and don't want to be bothered with searching for a new coach, and he's sacrosanct with the fans because, for three or four years when he was first hired, he turned the franchise's fortunes around from the Gretzky years and took us back to the playoffs.

If he were fired on Monday, my attitude towards it would be tempered by who else would get fired with him. I think the Coyotes need a complete overhaul of the coaching staff. If they fired Tippett only to install Playfair, it would accomplish nothing, IMO. Might as well keep Tippett at that point.

 

[Kaizen]

I would be a bit sad, because of my belief that this wasn't his fault. I wouldn't be surprised in the least, because I know that you can't fire the team, only the coach or GM, and they already fired the GM.

I would also be concerned about who would come in to coach this team. What quality coach would be willing to coach for these bozo owners? We could be stuck with Dallas Eakins or Claude Noel.

Our society is far too concerned about finding guilty to punish and not nearly concerned enough about fixing the problem. I don't see Tippett as the problem, just the easiest target to pin blame on and punish.

Good point - Tip hasn't punched substantially above his weight for a couple of years but the question that must be considered is who would the replacement be?

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

For me it's simple. I don't care what kind of coach Tippett is or how he's received in the room or what his reputation is.

In general terms, the only reason to extend a coach long-term is if he is producing definite success and tangible results, like Scotty Bowman in Montreal or Mike Babcock in Detroit. The blunt fact of the matter is that almost all coaches are in about the same orbit in terms of effectiveness, strategy, and tactics at the NHL level. What distinguishes them is the chemistry between them and their team - or the lack thereof.

I don't blame Dave Tippett for everything bad that has happened with this team. But I do think that on any other team in the league, he'd have been fired a long time ago for no other reason than there needs to be a culture change around the Coyotes. But he's sacrosanct with the Coyotes because the owners are too poor and don't want to be bothered with searching for a new coach, and he's sacrosanct with the fans because, for three or four years when he was first hired, he turned the franchise's fortunes around from the Gretzky years and took us back to the playoffs.

If he were fired on Monday, my attitude towards it would be tempered by who else would get fired with him. I think the Coyotes need a complete overhaul of the coaching staff. If they fired Tippett only to install Playfair, it would accomplish nothing, IMO. Might as well keep Tippett at that point.

And this is the thing that those who scream "haters" "DT haters" too easy fail to understand. There was a time to defend Tippett when he was doing the right things and getting the right results and that time has passed, long passed actually. Those who want Tippett to stay are holding on to his good moments for too long and need to let it go and live in the now. Yes, 2012 was a magical season for Coyotes fans considering the **** poor years this franchise has had but that season is a fluke.

 

[rt]

For me it's simple. I don't care what kind of coach Tippett is or how he's received in the room or what his reputation is.

In general terms, the only reason to extend a coach long-term is if he is producing definite success and tangible results, like Scotty Bowman in Montreal or Mike Babcock in Detroit. The blunt fact of the matter is that almost all coaches are in about the same orbit in terms of effectiveness, strategy, and tactics at the NHL level. What distinguishes them is the chemistry between them and their team - or the lack thereof.

I don't blame Dave Tippett for everything bad that has happened with this team. But I do think that on any other team in the league, he'd have been fired a long time ago for no other reason than there needs to be a culture change around the Coyotes. But he's sacrosanct with the Coyotes because the owners are too poor and don't want to be bothered with searching for a new coach, and he's sacrosanct with the fans because, for three or four years when he was first hired, he turned the franchise's fortunes around from the Gretzky years and took us back to the playoffs.

If he were fired on Monday, my attitude towards it would be tempered by who else would get fired with him. I think the Coyotes need a complete overhaul of the coaching staff. If they fired Tippett only to install Playfair, it would accomplish nothing, IMO. Might as well keep Tippett at that point.

The OP should have assumed that at the very least Playfair and Brown go too. I just didn't want to muddy it up unnecessarily

 

[hbk]

Walk me through the expectations for this season on player development and the results. That's the standard we should be judging Tippett on this year. Otherwise this is just a thread to talk about a narrative in which u already came to a conclusion. Talk to me about this season. Educate me on where Tippett crapped the bed on developing our youth. Duclair (which I actually do blame Tippett) and who else? Perlini, Fisher, Chychrun, Martinook, Dvorak, etc all better than expected. All played well with Tippett behind the bench. All progressed significantly this season. Why am I outraged based on this season?

 

[Lilhoody]

For me it's simple. I don't care what kind of coach Tippett is or how he's received in the room or what his reputation is.

In general terms, the only reason to extend a coach long-term is if he is producing definite success and tangible results, like Scotty Bowman in Montreal or Mike Babcock in Detroit. The blunt fact of the matter is that almost all coaches are in about the same orbit in terms of effectiveness, strategy, and tactics at the NHL level. What distinguishes them is the chemistry between them and their team - or the lack thereof.

I don't blame Dave Tippett for everything bad that has happened with this team. But I do think that on any other team in the league, he'd have been fired a long time ago for no other reason than there needs to be a culture change around the Coyotes. But he's sacrosanct with the Coyotes because the owners are too poor and don't want to be bothered with searching for a new coach, and he's sacrosanct with the fans because, for three or four years when he was first hired, he turned the franchise's fortunes around from the Gretzky years and took us back to the playoffs.

If he were fired on Monday, my attitude towards it would be tempered by who else would get fired with him. I think the Coyotes need a complete overhaul of the coaching staff. If they fired Tippett only to install Playfair, it would accomplish nothing, IMO. Might as well keep Tippett at that point.

Agreed...they all need to go.

His longevity isn't just puzzling in the League, but in professional sports.

 

[RemoAZ]

I don't think even new ownership will eat that contract. Whether you like him or not, he did a hell of a job convincing ownership to give him that huge extension. Kudos to him for making himself as safe as any losing coach can be.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

I don't think even new ownership will eat that contract. Whether you like him or not, he did a hell of a job convincing ownership to give him that huge extension. Kudos to him for making himself as safe as any losing coach can be.

If our new owners are multi-billionaires, then that contract would be paid for unless Tippett gets employed by someone else.

 

[rt]

The DT/Chayka pair should've sent Crouse down. I also find it ridiculous that McGinn is getting his minutes and Keller is a spectator. Would Dvorak's progress have been even more advanced if not for early season chain yanking?

 

[XX]

B. Does Tippett deserve to be fired for past seasons, I'd lean toward yes but there are reasonable arguments to the contrary.

There are no reasonable arguments to the contrary. The job security Tippett has managed in the face of historical awfulness is unprecedented.

Let him go, some other team can overpay him and then the Coyotes are off the hook.

 

[hbk]

The DT/Chayka pair should've sent Crouse down. I also find it ridiculous that McGinn is getting his minutes and Keller is a spectator. Would Dvorak's progress have been even more advanced if not for early season chain yanking?

Crouse has shown significant development and has Keller looked remotely physically ready for NHL? If that's all you have then Tippett has had a pretty successful development season.

 

[PhoPhan]

Walk me through the expectations for this season on player development and the results. That's the standard we should be judging Tippett on this year. Otherwise this is just a thread to talk about a narrative in which u already came to a conclusion. Talk to me about this season. Educate me on where Tippett crapped the bed on developing our youth. Duclair (which I actually do blame Tippett) and who else? Perlini, Fisher, Chychrun, Martinook, Dvorak, etc all better than expected. All played well with Tippett behind the bench. All progressed significantly this season. Why am I outraged based on this season?

This is pretty much where I'm at, and to be honest, I don't really blame Tippett all that much for Duclair. Does Duclair play better with Domi? Of course, but so does virtually everyone on the team. Domi doesn't play particularly better with Duclair, and if Duclair can't score without the best playmaker on the team feeding him passes, then maybe he's not that valuable of a player.

More to the point, though, this whole debate feels kind of moot. Ownership gave him a pretty big show of confidence in the form of a promotion and a long extension, and I don't think he's done anything to change their minds. I think you're much more likely to see a move into the front office than a firing.

 

[Plub]

Walk me through the expectations for this season on player development and the results. That's the standard we should be judging Tippett on this year. Otherwise this is just a thread to talk about a narrative in which u already came to a conclusion. Talk to me about this season. Educate me on where Tippett crapped the bed on developing our youth. Duclair (which I actually do blame Tippett) and who else? Perlini, Fisher, Chychrun, Martinook, Dvorak, etc all better than expected. All played well with Tippett behind the bench. All progressed significantly this season. Why am I outraged based on this season?

Is Dvo doing better than expected? Considered one of the top prospects in the world coming into this season. Great speed, good head, good motor, great shot, good hands, good defensively... did people expect him to do poorly?

He was one of the best since camp. He was one of our best on the NHL team and yet he was sent down anyways only to be called up due to injuries. How is that good on DT's part? He preaches you earn your icetime, but that clearly wasn't the case.

What happens if no one gets injured and DVO is stuck in the minors while lesser players are getting NHL minutes? I don't give DT much credit regarding dvo, he was going to do well no matter who was coaching. Probably would have done better if he had someone who wasn't trying to get him in the minors or sticking him on the 4th line without justification.

 

[hbk]

Dvorak has assumed the heavy minute - all situation C in his rookie year. His arrival made Hanzal expendable. Dvorak was a top rated prospect who surpassed expectations. Yep hickups at the beginning but the very reason we question Crouses spot on the roster is the very reason why some of us wanted Dvorak to break in at ahL level. Speaking of Crouse. Somebody explain to me how playing Crouse on kingstons perennially offensively challenged system would have been a preferred option for Crouse? Strikes me of a Perlini situation where we were all ready to write him off as a prospect because of his coaches stupid system that didn't help his talented players be successful. This isn't exactly a Shane Doan/Jets/Kamloops system situation.