Confirmed Signing with Link: (Mod warning OP)[TBL] Brayden Point signs with the Lightning (3 years, $6.75M AAV)

[Throw More Waffles]

Sure, there would had been no difference for your team this year if AM was signed at 11.6 and Marleau at 6.25 or if AM was signed at 15 mils and Marleau at 2.85... There would had been no difference between the two scenarios.....[/sarcasm]


A big overpayment on a star player you must live with it... An big overpayment on a bad player, you can pack with an asset and get rid of...

So overpaying star players like Matthews is worse than overpaying 3rd liners?

 

[nturn06]

So overpaying star players like Matthews is worse than overpaying 3rd liners?

Under the current cap, yes, highly overpaying multiple star players is worse than highly overpaing 3rd liners. Neither situation is ideal, but you can oftem move an overpaid 3rd liner at a cost, if you are willing to pay the cost... But there is no way of moving a part of your superstars salary...

Signing Lucic at 6 mils was a terrible deal for the Oilers, but I would rather have him at 6 than giving McD an extra 3-4 mils in salary. The Point is that, had the Oilers been trully a contender, they would had been willing to part with the asset needed to completely get rid of the Lucic contract.

 

[Max McBolt]

The flaw in your argument is that only Toronto players are doing this and not players in other markets like TB. The reality is that the TB player has the same creative accounting at his disposal to defer a certain portion of his taxes. The NHL team with the lower tax rate benefits the most. Everything you posted is basically irrelevant.

Brother did you read the full thing ?

The first one is talking about How pro athletes and other high earners stick-handle high Canadian income taxes.
This tax break is ONLY available to people residing in CANADA.

Also the second one about Tavares saving $12 Millions in tax breaks, he needs to have a residence in a low tax state, like Florida, or just in another state with lower taxes.
Again this tax break IS NOT available to Lightning players, because they are already in Florida.
It shows that Tavares takes home MORE MONEY than what your taxe calculator is showing.

Those arguments are valid in saying that your NUMBERS are wrong.
You cannot calculate the difference in net salary only by calculating state taxes % difference.
It does not work that way, as shown here by those tax breaks exemples that are not available to players from all the 31 teams in the league.

 

[AcerComputer]

Brother did you read the full thing ?

The first one is talking about How pro athletes and other high earners stick-handle high Canadian income taxes.
This tax break is ONLY available to people residing in CANADA.

Also the second one about Tavares saving $12 Millions in tax breaks, he needs to have a residence in a low tax state, like Florida, or just in another state with lower taxes.
Again this tax break IS NOT available to Lightning players.

Those arguments are valid in saying that your NUMBERS are wrong.
You cannot calculate the difference in in net salary on by calculating state taxes % difference.
It does not work that ways, as his shown here by those tax breaks exemple that are not available to players from all the 31 teams in the league.

Clearly Tavares was not able to pull of such a hypothetical Florida residency because he: Leafs' John Tavares buys Toronto home

Also the U.S would have their own version of some sort of trust fund to defer taxes paid.

I'll give you that it's not as much of difference based on the tax calculator. But you cannot say that TB doesn't have a tax advantage, and players are signing for what seem like a lesser cap hit, because the net pay is comparable to a higher cap hit (like Marner) in high tax markets.

 

[Hunter368]

Guys, if you want to discuss politics in this thread, you're getting a infraction. Tired of deleting posts about it.

 

[glovesave_35]

Players gotta learn to stick to their guns in these negotiations. It's not an indictment of character to want market value for yourself.

This is a pretty gross example of players being sold on "do it for the team" salaries. Toronto already showed us that you can pay premium dollar for your premium players and still ice a contender. All this talk about team-friendly deals as if it isn't just exploitation....god I wish hockey players saw the business for the business sometimes.

Toronto isn't a contender how TB is a contender.

 

[OurlordAndSaviorKuch]

Toronto isn't a contender how TB is a contender.

wat?????

 

[OurlordAndSaviorKuch]

1. You are not a neutral fan when the conversation is about the leafs.

2. Matthews is the 2nd best goal scorer in the league. Point is not on his level when it comes to the most important part of the game.

I would have no issue with Matthew's at 7.5 per over 3 years.

yeah no

 

[OurlordAndSaviorKuch]

Was it Point or the team that wanted only 3 years?

Team, Point wanted long term is the rumor.

 

[OurlordAndSaviorKuch]

Jesus Tampa keeps getting lucky with deals like these. Kucherov at 4, Point at 6.5, it's like they are living in an entire different era than every other teams salary-wise. It keeps getting higher for everybody else while Tampa pays their guys on a 2012 chart.

Not sure how good management is luck? Also players buying in and taking less to keep the core together to keep our window open longer isn’t luck either.

 

[KINGS17]

Players gotta learn to stick to their guns in these negotiations. It's not an indictment of character to want market value for yourself.

This is a pretty gross example of players being sold on "do it for the team" salaries. Toronto already showed us that you can pay premium dollar for your premium players and still ice a contender. All this talk about team-friendly deals as if it isn't just exploitation....god I wish hockey players saw the business for the business sometimes.

Players say all the time all they want to do is win. Are they full of BS?

 

[BoltzManConstant]

wat?????

Pretty sure he was just saying that Toronto is a much weaker "contender" than Tampa.

 

[Max McBolt]

Clearly Tavares was not able to pull of such a hypothetical Florida residency because he: Leafs' John Tavares buys Toronto home

Also the U.S would have their own version of some sort of trust fund to defer taxes paid.

I'll give you that it's not as much of difference based on the tax calculator. But you cannot say that TB doesn't have a tax advantage, and players are signing for what seem like a lesser cap hit, because the net pay is comparable to a higher cap hit (like Marner) in high tax markets.

Tampa Bay DOES have a tax advantage.
And it is NOT the main reason why they have better contracts.

--------------------------------

Vegas has about the same state taxes % as Tampa Bay.

And they pay Mark Stone $9.5 million/year.
Exact same salary as Nikita Kucherov, the league's MVP.
Stone's best season is 73 points.
Kucherov's best season is 128 points. 55 more points.

What explains that Tampa Bay was able to pay Kucherov at this price after his 100 points season, and that Vegas had to give Marc Stone the same money even tho he is clearly in a lower tier than Kucherov ?

Tax break ? Nope.

What about Dallas and Jamie Benn ?
Jamie Benn makes $9.5 million average per year on a contract that he signed in 2016.
How come Tampa Bay was able to sign Kucherov to the same amount in 2018, when the cap for the upcoming season was going to be $8 million higher than when Jamie Benn signed his contract.

Tax break ? Nope.

Dallas has about the same state taxes % as Tampa Bay.


So why is it that Tampa got better deals ?

Because the GMs did a great job at implementing a great internal cap structure.
They also managed to sell their vision and team concept to the players.
The players are willing to leave some money on the table instead of aiming for the maximum payout possible to create a winning team and to stay in a great environment to play their sport.

That's the difference between why Tampa Bay manages to get great deals even in comparisons to teams with the exact same taxe state income %.

----------------------------------

Tampa Bay is also a prime destination regarding Media Exposure, Weather, and yes Taxes.
Those are obvious advantages that not all markets have access to.
Canadian markets are at a disadvantage regarding those 3 factors, and they could definitively impact the willingness of a player to take a pay cut.

Don't you think that a lot of players in Montreal and Toronto would be willing to take a $500 000 pay cut just to not be expose to the crazy Medias in those pressure cookers, and also live by the beach with palm trees year round ?

Needless to say, no need for tax break to be willing to take a pay cut for a better environment.
And now you can add a little pay cut for advantages taxes. Yes.
Even tho it is NOT as simple as calculating different state taxes % like showed in the previous exemples of tax break available to Canadian market, it is still and advantage.
Add to that the amazing job of the GMs to build and sell a team winning culture and you have great deals comparing to the rest of the league.

Doesn't account fully, or even mostly, for the difference.

So going back to this quote, taxes DO NOT account fully, or even mostly, for the difference.

Taxes DO make a difference, but nowhere to the extend that a lot of people makes it out to be.

The way people bring up "taxes loophole" as the main reason for Tampa Bays successes and great contracts is ridiculous and borderline moronic.

 

[Aoko]

Tampa Bay DOES have a tax advantage.
And it is NOT the main reason why they have better contracts.

--------------------------------

Vegas has about the same state taxes % as Tampa Bay.

And they pay Mark Stone $9.5 million/year.
Exact same salary as Nikita Kucherov, the league's MVP.
Stone's best season is 73 points.
Kucherov's best season is 128 points. 55 more points.

What explains that Tampa Bay was able to pay Kucherov at this price after his 100 points season, and that Vegas had to give Marc Stone the same money even tho he is clearly in a lower tier than Kucherov ?

Tax break ? Nope.

What about Dallas and Jamie Benn ?
Jamie Benn makes $9.5 million average per year on a contract that he signed in 2016.
How come Tampa Bay was able to sign Kucherov to the same amount in 2018, when the cap for the upcoming season was going to be $8 million higher than when Jamie Benn signed his contract.

Tax break ? Nope.

Dallas has about the same state taxes % as Tampa Bay.


So why is it that Tampa got better deals ?

Because the GMs did a great job at implementing a great internal cap structure.
They also managed to sell their vision and team concept to the players.
The players are willing to leave some money on the table instead of aiming for the maximum payout possible to create a winning team and to stay in a great environment to play their sport.

That's the difference between why Tampa Bay manages to get great deals even in comparisons to teams with the exact same taxe state income %.

----------------------------------

Tampa Bay is also a prime destination regarding Media Exposure, Weather, and yes Taxes.
Those are obvious advantages that not all markets have access to.
Canadian markets are at a disadvantage regarding those 3 factors, and they could definitively impact the willingness of a player to take a pay cut.

Don't you think that a lot of players in Montreal and Toronto would be willing to take a $500 000 pay cut just to not be expose to the crazy Medias in those pressure cookers, and also live by the beach with palm trees year round ?

Needless to say, no need for tax break to be willing to take a pay cut for a better environment.
And now you can add a little pay cut for advantages taxes. Yes.
Even tho it is NOT as simple as calculating different state taxes % like showed in the previous exemples of tax break available to Canadian market, it is still and advantage.
Add to that the amazing job of the GMs to build and sell a team winning culture and you have great deals comparing to the rest of the league.



So going back to this quote, taxes DO NOT account fully, or even mostly, for the difference.

Taxes DO make a difference, but nowhere to the extend that a lot of people makes it out to be.

Incredible post.

But it's easier for people to blame everything on taxes. People don't typically like to give credit when they can help it.

Case and point, needlessly pointing out it's only a three year contract. Implying that paying him will be a problem in 3 years. Mooks need to pay attention to what they're doing. Then they would realize there's no problem.

The good ol' days when we were supposed to be worried about signing Hedman, Stamkos, Vasilevskiy, Kucherov and Point to long term extensions. It was going to tear apart our core.

Hahahahahahahahah.

 

[Deen]

Can't see Tkachuk getting more. Thanks Tampa.

 

[Donnie D]

Florida Panthers every year seem to sign one of the top free agents, and this year was no difference when they signed Bobrovsky. The Panthers main issues have been either unlucky with the year they were drafting high compared to TB (Ekblad vs Hedman) or just good drafting in general (Vasilevskiy, Kucharov, Palat, Point, Killorn, or free agent signings Tyler Johnson & Yan Gourdi). TB sucess has very little to do with any of the points you mentioned, except taxes where they have about a 25% advantage in taxes compared to a team like Toronto.

If you look at the post I made a couple spots up you will see that the Marner contract of $10.893M/yr in Toronto, with a net pay of 5,090,504/yr is equivalent to $8.591M cap hit in TB. That's over $2.3M difference and approx a 26.8% cap hit advantage for TB.

Marner could have signed for $8.59 per year and made up the difference in endorsements playing in Toronto.

 

[DFC]

Players say all the time all they want to do is win. Are they full of BS?

Some are, some aren't.

 

[DFC]

Tampa Bay DOES have a tax advantage.
And it is NOT the main reason why they have better contracts.

--------------------------------

Vegas has about the same state taxes % as Tampa Bay.

And they pay Mark Stone $9.5 million/year.
Exact same salary as Nikita Kucherov, the league's MVP.
Stone's best season is 73 points.
Kucherov's best season is 128 points. 55 more points.

What explains that Tampa Bay was able to pay Kucherov at this price after his 100 points season, and that Vegas had to give Marc Stone the same money even tho he is clearly in a lower tier than Kucherov ?

Tax break ? Nope.

What about Dallas and Jamie Benn ?
Jamie Benn makes $9.5 million average per year on a contract that he signed in 2016.
How come Tampa Bay was able to sign Kucherov to the same amount in 2018, when the cap for the upcoming season was going to be $8 million higher than when Jamie Benn signed his contract.

Tax break ? Nope.

Dallas has about the same state taxes % as Tampa Bay.


So why is it that Tampa got better deals ?

Because the GMs did a great job at implementing a great internal cap structure.
They also managed to sell their vision and team concept to the players.
The players are willing to leave some money on the table instead of aiming for the maximum payout possible to create a winning team and to stay in a great environment to play their sport.

That's the difference between why Tampa Bay manages to get great deals even in comparisons to teams with the exact same taxe state income %.

----------------------------------

Tampa Bay is also a prime destination regarding Media Exposure, Weather, and yes Taxes.
Those are obvious advantages that not all markets have access to.
Canadian markets are at a disadvantage regarding those 3 factors, and they could definitively impact the willingness of a player to take a pay cut.

Don't you think that a lot of players in Montreal and Toronto would be willing to take a $500 000 pay cut just to not be expose to the crazy Medias in those pressure cookers, and also live by the beach with palm trees year round ?

Needless to say, no need for tax break to be willing to take a pay cut for a better environment.
And now you can add a little pay cut for advantages taxes. Yes.
Even tho it is NOT as simple as calculating different state taxes % like showed in the previous exemples of tax break available to Canadian market, it is still and advantage.
Add to that the amazing job of the GMs to build and sell a team winning culture and you have great deals comparing to the rest of the league.



So going back to this quote, taxes DO NOT account fully, or even mostly, for the difference.

Taxes DO make a difference, but nowhere to the extend that a lot of people makes it out to be.

Take your logic and critical thinking elsewhere. It's not welcome here.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Marner could have signed for $8.59 per year and made up the difference in endorsements playing in Toronto.

Yea but if the gm is going to give it to you...

 

[thadd]

Re op: I have no clue how politics got into this one. What the hell.
Anyhow, if Points continues to be as awesome as he's been up till now he'll be in line for 13M+ when his next contract comes around.
1 season before Alex Killorn's contract expires.
Will be interesting to see how they fit that in there.

 

[Zhamnov5GoalGame]

Not completely true. All he has to do is accept the QO and he becomes a UFA. Or he declines and becomes a UFA.

Sorry don't have time to read 26 pages to see if this answer comes up. About the second point. Wouldn't he just have arbitration rights? I don't understand what you're saying about him declining and just walking. If they extend a qualifying offer wouldn't his only recourse (beyond holding out) be to file for arbitration?

 

[sparxx87]

Sorry don't have time to read 26 pages to see if this answer comes up. About the second point. Wouldn't he just have arbitration rights? I don't understand what you're saying about him declining and just walking. If they extend a qualifying offer wouldn't his only recourse (beyond holding out) be to file for arbitration?

No. The 3 year bridge would leave him 1 more RFA year. The Leafs would be forced to qualify him at somewhere between 12-15M. He could negotiate long term or sign the one year QO and become UFA the following season.

A 3 year back loaded bridge for a player looking to cash in probably isn’t a good play.

 

[Zhamnov5GoalGame]

No. The 3 year bridge would leave him 1 more RFA year. The Leafs would be forced to qualify him at somewhere between 12-15M. He could negotiate long term or sign the one year QO and become UFA the following season.

A 3 year back loaded bridge for a player looking to cash in probably isn’t a good play.

I assume you mean the Bolts?
Have the details of his AAV been broken down.
If his last year is 9million isn't the qualifying offer starting point the same as the last year?

 

[sparxx87]

I assume you mean the Bolts?
Have the details of his AAV been broken down.
If his last year is 9million isn't the qualifying offer starting point the same as the last year?

Nah, the person you’re replying to is talking Marner and the Leafs lol .. explaining why the 3 year bridge option wasn’t quite the same from both agents.

 

[Zhamnov5GoalGame]

Nah, the person you’re replying to is talking Marner and the Leafs lol .. explaining why the 3 year bridge option wasn’t quite the same from both agents.

Right, sorry I was skimming too quick.