Value of: Mitch Marner or Nylander for a TOP D-MAN.

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

To those who think the Leafs should trade one of Marner/Nylander... who do you see as the ideal return?

This isn't the play yet. Dubas has followed the hockey GM play book pretty much to a T.

He traded a leader in the locker room to change the culture last summer (Kadri and his me first play)
He then fired a Coach who was too tough on them and hired a players coach.
He traded to add more "character " in the room (Clifford)
He stood pat at the TDL to say he believes in the talent in the room.

Next move after the season ends will be to make a big trade without touching the big 4, Reilly and Anderson. But it will be some significant players to the team locker room. Most likely KK plus as KK is well liked but has been seen as a discipline issue.
When that doesn't work he will deal Nylander / Anderson or both to show the big 4 that they are touchable. But that will not be until the next TDL at the earliest.

Better strap in as its going to be a bumpy ride. Dubas has painted himself into a corner by not trading Barrie for assets and re-signing Muffin. GM's are going to squeeze him on trades now knowing he removed any flexibility he had. The Muffin signing was very poorly timed unless the cap is going up by 6 or 7 million.

 

[FerrisRox]

But all of this has nothing to do with cap management. It has everything to do with asset management which Dubas is starting to show he struggles with.

You're living in a fantasy land if you think this doesn't have to do with cap management.

Multiple times during the summer there was talk about Gardiner returning to Toronto but they couldn't make the numbers work.

Part of why they took a bath on the Kadri trade was because they made a lopsided deal cause they need Colorado to eat some of the Barrie cap hit cause otherwise the Leafs couldn't afford to take him on.

Dubas has maxed out the cap and doesn't have the money to replace players that leave, of course its about cap management.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

You're living in a fantasy land if you think this doesn't have to do with cap management.

Multiple times during the summer there was talk about Gardiner returning to Toronto but they couldn't make the numbers work.

Part of why they took a bath on the Kadri trade was because they made a lopsided deal cause they need Colorado to eat some of the Barrie cap hit cause otherwise the Leafs couldn't afford to take him on.

Dubas has maxed out the cap and doesn't have the money to replace players that leave, of course its about cap management.

Yes that talk was generated mainly from Gardiner's end. He was the one who needed to make the financial concessions. The Leafs had already moved on. They had Reilly, Muffin and Dermott on the left side with a young stud dman in Sandin waiting in the wings that they fully expected to call up at some point this season. None of these players have shown the ability to play the right side. I don't know how low the number needed for him to return but I am betting it was really low as he would have block two young Dmen that management really likes. If he was right handed and they couldn't afford him then you can say it was a cap issue.

As for the Kadri trade look at the salary that was coming back from Calgary to understand why the Avs had to retain on Barrie. The Avs retaining on Barrie did not lower the value of the trade.
In fact the Avs trade allowed the Leafs to get a better center than the center they were getting from Calgary. Most people before the season started would have said the better defenseman was Barrie as well.
If he had received a lesser package then the cancelled trade with Calgary because the Avs had to retain then you can say he got lesser value because of the cap.

So I guess I don't really live in fantasy land do I.

 

[FerrisRox]

Yes that talk was generated mainly from Gardiner's end.

Please share how you know that it came from Gardiner's end it wasn't a mutual discussion.

This should be great!

As for the Kadri trade look at the salary that was coming back from Calgary to understand why the Avs had to retain on Barrie. The Avs retaining on Barrie did not lower the value of the trade.

Wait a minute - what?

So whether the Avs retained half his salary or not, you think the price tag to acquire him would be the same? Is that what you're saying?

In fact the Avs trade allowed the Leafs to get a better center than the center they were getting from Calgary. Most people before the season started would have said the better defenseman was Barrie as well.

No, not a single person would have told you Barrie was better than Brodie *defensively* which is what the Leafs needed. I don't think even Barrie would have told you he was better without the puck than Brodie.

There's a reason that the Calgary trade was what they tried to do first, and that's because Brodie was a much better fit for what Toronto needed.

If he had received a lesser package then the cancelled trade with Calgary because the Avs had to retain then you can say he got lesser value because of the cap.

So I guess I don't really live in fantasy land do I.

With all due respect, you've made it abundantly clear that you do.

 

[Cor]

Trouba for Marner in the offseason then .

Rangers would need to add but I’m not against it

 

[Tit]

To those who think the Leafs should trade one of Marner/Nylander... who do you see as the ideal return?

Miro Heiskanen, Bowen Byram, etc Elite young D. At least for Marner.
Nylander second tier obviously.

 

[57special]

Marner is a terrific player, but very, very few teams are willing or able to take on that cap hit unless the Leafs take a lot of cap back. A salary like that raises a lot of eyebrows, and will wreak havoc on the salary structure of a team. Not many teams are signing up for that, especially if it's not a not for an elite #1C or #1D.

Nylander, last year's butt of jokes, is far easier to move, and has a better chance of netting a decent top pairing Dman, or at least a 2/3 ...don't ask me who.

 

[FilTheThrill91]

Miro Heiskanen, Bowen Byram, etc Elite young D. At least for Marner.
Nylander second tier obviously.

No way you fetch Heiskanen for Marner. The Leafs are in the same position the Oilers were in when they traded Hall. Both are wingers, Marner has a much less team friendly contract and every GM in the league is going to go into negotiations with Dubas knowing they have him by the balls because he is a desperate on improving the Leafs blue line with minimal cap space at his disposal. I hate to break it to you but when the Leafs trade one of these young guys they will lose the trade because nobody is going to let Dubas get his top pairing D without paying a premium.

 

[Tit]

No way you fetch Heiskanen for Marner. The Leafs are in the same position the Oilers were in when they traded Hall. Both are wingers, Marner has a much less team friendly contract and every GM in the league is going to go into negotiations with Dubas knowing they have him by the balls because he is a desperate on improving the Leafs blue line with minimal cap space at his disposal. I hate to break it to you but when the Leafs trade one of these young guys they will lose the trade because nobody is going to let Dubas get his top pairing D without paying a premium.

Not true. We are not desperate to trade away Marner at all, try again. The hall trade for oilers is a terrible and is in no way a comparable.

 

[slg1963]

Rangers would need to add but I’m not against it

We will add Lias Anderson

 

[Cor]

We will add Lias Anderson

Would probably need to include something other than an under performing prospect who wants out.

But In a hypothetical Marner to Rangers trade I could see a Bracco/Andersson swap as part of the value to Toronto.

 

[seanlinden]

No way you fetch Heiskanen for Marner. The Leafs are in the same position the Oilers were in when they traded Hall. Both are wingers, Marner has a much less team friendly contract and every GM in the league is going to go into negotiations with Dubas knowing they have him by the balls because he is a desperate on improving the Leafs blue line with minimal cap space at his disposal. I hate to break it to you but when the Leafs trade one of these young guys they will lose the trade because nobody is going to let Dubas get his top pairing D without paying a premium.

On the 1st bolded... sure, but then that same GM is going to realize that he doesn't care what kind of position Dubas is in, he only cares about the player he's acquiring and wants to make sure one of the other 29 teams doesn't get in on it.

On the 2nd bolded..for what it's worth... the Leafs cap situation is not really that dire -- they have $77.7m comitted to 18 players for next year. Figure a cap of $84m, and it's $6.7m to spend.

Current players not included in that are Barrie, Ceci, Dermott, Mikheyev, Clifford, Malgin, Spezza, Gauthier.

Their needs will be a #2/3 defenceman, a #4/5 defenceman if they move Dermott, Mikheyev ($1.25m?) and some guys to fill out the 4th line & press box up front.

The Leafs can easily spend $4m on a defenceman and not bat an eye. If they move one of Kerfoot/Johnsson, who realistically, they're not going to miss with the emergence of Engvall and Mikheyev, that number likely jumps to $6.5m. If they move both, around $8.5m.

 

[slg1963]

Would probably need to include something other than an under performing prospect who wants out.

But In a hypothetical Marner to Rangers trade I could see a Bracco/Andersson swap as part of the value to Toronto.

You can keep Bracco, Trouba, Anderson and a 3rd? Our 1st is out of the question and our 2nd belongs to the Hurricanes.

 

[shortfuze]

Marner is a terrific player, but very, very few teams are willing or able to take on that cap hit unless the Leafs take a lot of cap back. A salary like that raises a lot of eyebrows, and will wreak havoc on the salary structure of a team. Not many teams are signing up for that, especially if it's not a not for an elite #1C or #1D.

Nylander, last year's butt of jokes, is far easier to move, and has a better chance of netting a decent top pairing Dman, or at least a 2/3 ...don't ask me who.

To get a player like Marner almost all teams will find a way to fit his salary in. toronto wont be taking much/if any salary back. only for the player they are trading for.

 

[shortfuze]

No way you fetch Heiskanen for Marner. The Leafs are in the same position the Oilers were in when they traded Hall. Both are wingers, Marner has a much less team friendly contract and every GM in the league is going to go into negotiations with Dubas knowing they have him by the balls because he is a desperate on improving the Leafs blue line with minimal cap space at his disposal. I hate to break it to you but when the Leafs trade one of these young guys they will lose the trade because nobody is going to let Dubas get his top pairing D without paying a premium.

you are so wrong. some of those guys might play hardball but will be watching the other GM's actually trying to make a trade with equal value. cause the rest of them are smart enough to realize that they will be getting a great player and will have to give up something of equal value. cause they will be battling each other to get Marner. this isnt childs play.

 

[57special]

I disagree that teams would fall all over themselves to get Marner. That contract just creates a potential problem for a GM looking to sign, or re-sign, other top players.
Managing the cap matters. Successful teams like BOS do it.

 

[ToDavid]

This isn't the play yet. Dubas has followed the hockey GM play book pretty much to a T.

He traded a leader in the locker room to change the culture last summer (Kadri and his me first play)
He then fired a Coach who was too tough on them and hired a players coach.
He traded to add more "character " in the room (Clifford)
He stood pat at the TDL to say he believes in the talent in the room.

Next move after the season ends will be to make a big trade without touching the big 4, Reilly and Anderson. But it will be some significant players to the team locker room. Most likely KK plus as KK is well liked but has been seen as a discipline issue.
When that doesn't work he will deal Nylander / Anderson or both to show the big 4 that they are touchable. But that will not be until the next TDL at the earliest.

Better strap in as its going to be a bumpy ride. Dubas has painted himself into a corner by not trading Barrie for assets and re-signing Muffin. GM's are going to squeeze him on trades now knowing he removed any flexibility he had. The Muffin signing was very poorly timed unless the cap is going up by 6 or 7 million.

Calling Muzzin Muffin really helps us know to not take your comments seriously. Thank you, we really appreciate it.

 

[Jerkbait]

Would like a young D-man for Marner or Nylander. Who do you think the Leafs could get for either?

I think leafs would like 2 pcs for either .. 2 good young d man with term.. john marino comes to mind of course just as apc... I think kapanen goes first for a S man.

 

[Spazkat]

I think leafs would like 2 pcs for either .. 2 good young d man with term.. john marino comes to mind of course just as apc... I think kapanen goes first for a S man.

You think the Pens of all teams are going to trade you their prized ELC D man for an 11M winger?

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Calling Muzzin Muffin really helps us know to not take your comments seriously. Thank you, we really appreciate it.

Why so serious???

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Adam Larsson.

 

[typicalsavage]

This isn't the play yet. Dubas has followed the hockey GM play book pretty much to a T.

He traded a leader in the locker room to change the culture last summer (Kadri and his me first play)
He then fired a Coach who was too tough on them and hired a players coach.
He traded to add more "character " in the room (Clifford)
He stood pat at the TDL to say he believes in the talent in the room.

Next move after the season ends will be to make a big trade without touching the big 4, Reilly and Anderson. But it will be some significant players to the team locker room. Most likely KK plus as KK is well liked but has been seen as a discipline issue.
When that doesn't work he will deal Nylander / Anderson or both to show the big 4 that they are touchable. But that will not be until the next TDL at the earliest.

Better strap in as its going to be a bumpy ride. Dubas has painted himself into a corner by not trading Barrie for assets and re-signing Muffin. GM's are going to squeeze him on trades now knowing he removed any flexibility he had. The Muffin signing was very poorly timed unless the cap is going up by 6 or 7 million.

did Muzzin steal your wife or something. The biggest sign of someone w

You think the Pens of all teams are going to trade you their prized ELC D man for an 11M winger?

The 11M winger thats top 20 in points despite missing 12 games and is Scoring at a 95 point pace and pks and is a solid two way player? I get the Pens dont have the cap but when you pull out all the negatives of a player its obvious youre coming into the thread with an agenda to post to push a bs narrative and proves you dont really have any knowledge of hockey. Literally any team in the league would kill to have Marner and make room for him.

 

[Wiggleboom]

I think if the Leafs can add a top-15 D-man they instantly become a real Cup contender. Not the favorite, but in that top group of 6-8 teams with a legit shot. Their current roster is too lopsided towards forwards and weak on D to ever be more than in that second tier of teams that make the playoffs but do t have a real chance to go all the way.

in order to get that level of D-man, they will have to trade one of their big 4 and likely even need to add if it is Marner or Nylander. The problem is that those types of D-men are so rarely traded, but it does happen. Seth Jones was traded before he became that. One option is Doughty of course if they believe he still has a few years of elite play left. He also wouldn’t cost as much since his contract is so big. But they would have to move some big money out to fit him.

 

[Space Coyote]

Adam Larsson.

Laine for Larsson.

 

[Spazkat]

The 11M winger thats top 20 in points despite missing 12 games and is Scoring at a 95 point pace and pks and is a solid two way player? I get the Pens dont have the cap but when you pull out all the negatives of a player its obvious youre coming into the thread with an agenda to post to push a bs narrative and proves you dont really have any knowledge of hockey. Literally any team in the league would kill to have Marner and make room for him.

Holy crap- defensive much? I didn't think it was necessary to point out Marner's virtues since everyone knows the type of player he is/what they'd be getting. He's a good player... that much is obvious. The problems come with the things I mentioned. High ceiling ELC players are worth their weight in gold in today's NHL . For most teams bringing in an 11M player isn't really viable mid season, and may not be an option at all without a similar amount of salary going back out. How many teams can do that without radical restructuring? And how many that could would be willing to?