Prospect Info: Mitch Marner Discussion Thread

[Battle Lin]

leo kadri sosh
jvr bozak marner
nylander matthews brown

this is the top 9 we all hoping for in some combination

 

[diceman934]

How does one put lead weights on their thighs in their underwear? What a ridiculous story. There is no credible info here. I lived that life. What a joke.

You lived Doug G life....now that is a joke.....

He taped them on his shorts....

As a Cornwall Royal, Gilmour taped small weights to the inside of his shorts for weigh-ins. He became adept at subtly lifting his heel when his height was measured

Here is the link: http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=461381

What is ridiculous is your claim of playing Pro hockey and not believing what I said.....as for credible information....you have none.

 

[diceman934]

I guess posting his own words is not enough proof for some....

 

[Mr Hockey*]

I guess posting his own words is not enough proof for some....

That is not quoted ...

 

[diceman934]

That is not quoted ...

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/doug-gilmour-nhl-letter-to-my-younger-self/

 

[RonEllisFan]

Wayne about same size in his rookie year

 

[PossessedHockeyCard*]

Marner is going to be sick, not Patrick Kane sick, but pretty darn sick

 

[Mess]

I think the HF board crowd has more concerns about weight than height, 5'11" is plenty for today's NHL, 164lbs is among the lightest players in the league

Not to say that will derail him, just a matter of whether its a concern this year

You're correct.

I did a quick once through the league looking for players under < 170 last year.

Johnny Gaudreau .. 157 lbs.
Paul Byron .. 159 lbs.
Tyler Ennis .. 161 lbs.
-------------------------------------------
Brendan Leipsic .. 165 lbs. (only 6 games)
Yanni Gourde .. 168 lbs. (only 2 games)

I found only 3 NHL regulars and 2 (post TD) subs that played in the NHL last year under 170lbs.

Marner is a special player so hopefully he can make it as rare exception , as its not the norm despite the league getting smaller recently. The average NHLer is 6-2/201'bs (in 2016).

 

[ULF_55]

You're correct.

I did a quick once through the league looking for players under < 170 last year.

Johnny Gaudreau .. 157 lbs.
Paul Byron .. 159 lbs.
Tyler Ennis .. 161 lbs.
-------------------------------------------
Brendan Leipsic .. 165 lbs. (only 6 games)
Yanni Gourde .. 168 lbs. (only 2 games)

I found only 3 NHL regulars and 2 (post TD) subs that played in the NHL last year under 170lbs.

Marner is a special player so hopefully he can make it as rare exception , as its not the norm despite the league getting smaller recently. The average NHLer is 6-2/201'bs (in 2016).

It is all about strength to endure getting physically taken out along the boards.

Open ice isn't as much a concern, you can be bounced around and not get injured.

If he's strong enough to take a hit by a man into the boards there should be no problem.

 

[CBinTokyo]

So I have personally met Doug, very nice man. He never wore weights. He will tell you he was a bit of a late bloomer. You are making things up.

Yes I played pro hockey. That must be an issue for you. I played in Europe and represented my Country very proud.. It's not really a big deal and was 25 years ago.

So let me get this straight, you know Doug, and you know him so well, that when you asked him for a quarter, and he didn't give you one from his Jock, that you know he never fiddled with his weigh in? I mean, you were obviously close. Maybe he mentions you in the article where he clearly says,

"Repeat it when you stuff two pounds of quarters into your jock before the weigh in. Just don’t jingle when you walk to the scale."

I think I'll take his word over yours.

To be fair, I believe you played pro hockey and are familiar with that world. That is a far cry from your word trumping the word of the man himself.

 

[Northern Dancer]

Doug Jarvis all 170 pounds of him played 964 consecutive games (current iron-man) in a much tougher NHL.
The concern over Marner is totally unwarranted.

PS: the #2 iron man Gary Unger (914 games) was also 170 pounds.

Sidebar: Both were originally Toronto Maple Leafs.

 

[Randy Randerson]

You're correct.

I did a quick once through the league looking for players under < 170 last year.

Johnny Gaudreau .. 157 lbs.
Paul Byron .. 159 lbs.
Tyler Ennis .. 161 lbs.
-------------------------------------------
Brendan Leipsic .. 165 lbs. (only 6 games)
Yanni Gourde .. 168 lbs. (only 2 games)

I found only 3 NHL regulars and 2 (post TD) subs that played in the NHL last year under 170lbs.

Marner is a special player so hopefully he can make it as rare exception , as its not the norm despite the league getting smaller recently. The average NHLer is 6-2/201'bs (in 2016).

That whole list of players is 5'8"-5'9" as well (hockeydb listings), so Mitch at 164lbs is a little less dense than they are too.

It is all about strength to endure getting physically taken out along the boards.

Open ice isn't as much a concern, you can be bounced around and not get injured.

If he's strong enough to take a hit by a man into the boards there should be no problem.

Open ice I think is where you need the weight a little more....Newton's 3rd Law of motion and all.....near the boards you can at least use the boards for leverage as long as you're not completely overpowered by your opponent, ie weight vs. strength

I haven't been able to find complete combine results for Marner, just top 10's in each test for the 2015 draft class, but it looks like he only scored high in the anaerobic fatigue test. He's also put on almost 5lbs since the combine, if that's an consolation to us: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2...raft-combine-complete-fitness-testing-results

(side note: that picture of Nylander doing a pull up at his combine makes me wonder why we were ever concerned about his size)

 

[Randy Randerson]

Doug Jarvis all 170 pounds of him played 964 consecutive games (current iron-man) in a much tougher NHL.
The concern over Marner is totally unwarranted.

Jarvis would probably be considered an outlier for his size though, no? Especially playing in that era. He's also 2 inches shorter and 6lbs heavier than current Marner, a little denser body.

The Marner weight topic is probably more just something to pass the time on HF boards in august, but we don't have enough info to dismiss it as totally unwarranted either. If he plays at 5'11" and 164lbs, he'll be one of the lightest and least dense bodies in the league (unless we're talking about some of the larger light players like Wayne Simmonds, but then we get into a smaller size gap between them and their competitors)

We'll have to see how he handles playing against men for the first time

 

[Mess]

It is all about strength to endure getting physically taken out along the boards.

Open ice isn't as much a concern, you can be bounced around and not get injured.

If he's strong enough to take a hit by a man into the boards there should be no problem.

Agreed

For the first few years I think Leaf Nation fans are going to hold their collective breaths every time Marner puts himself into a dangerous situation or takes a big hit, hoping he bounces right back up.

In time with experience smaller players learn how to avoid these situations, while adapting their games to prevent unnecessary punishment and avoid danger zones as self preservation for their own livelihood and longevity. Only going to the net when its safe and picking their spots when the coast is clear.

Marner has been a small player all his life in comparison to his age group and as such has already learned some of the tricks in open ice to pivot or leave his skates to minimize the impact on him in collisions to absorb big hits better without taking the full brunt of a bigger player verses smaller player head-on impact and getting run over in the railroad tracks.

As you pointed out however as a winger you're often cornered and pinned against the boards where escapability to avoid getting blasted into the boards by a +200 lbs player is going to hurt and leave a mark and becomes unavoidable.

One of the reason perhaps Hunter upon drafting Marner saw him as a future centre as opposed to a winger, was because of that very concern of keeping him in open ice up the middle or the point on the PP which decreases the odds of taking unnecessary punishment getting smushed into the boards.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Some of the dumbest people I ever met played at very high levels. I have no doubt many post here.

I can definitely say that the people I know who played junior or above always amazed me at how little they knew about their league despite having the skill to play at that level.

On the flip side, the people who knows the sport the best, especially at the junior hockey level....never played a second of competitive high level ice hockey.

Playing the sport you end up knowing the X's and O's and positioning and routines coaches use in practices. But being so close and sheltered within the team environment means you end up knowing very little about the politics and everything else that goes into a league.

I've had to explain the cycle of junior hockey to junior hockey players, as an example.

 

[mallory67]

You're correct.

I did a quick once through the league looking for players under < 170 last year.

Johnny Gaudreau .. 157 lbs.
Paul Byron .. 159 lbs.
Tyler Ennis .. 161 lbs.
-------------------------------------------
Brendan Leipsic .. 165 lbs. (only 6 games)
Yanni Gourde .. 168 lbs. (only 2 games)

I found only 3 NHL regulars and 2 (post TD) subs that played in the NHL last year under 170lbs.

Marner is a special player so hopefully he can make it as rare exception , as its not the norm despite the league getting smaller recently. The average NHLer is 6-2/201'bs (in 2016).

The difference of course is that Mitch is 19 and will probably have a career playing weight in the 180's.
Maybe even 190lb.

Mitch is just young ... not small. Gaudreau and Ennis are small.

 

[Mr Hockey*]

Mitch's size is fine, he seems to handle himself good in junior. There are big boys in jr.

 

[theIceWookie]

That whole list of players is 5'8"-5'9" as well (hockeydb listings), so Mitch at 164lbs is a little less dense than they are too.



Open ice I think is where you need the weight a little more....Newton's 3rd Law of motion and all.....near the boards you can at least use the boards for leverage as long as you're not completely overpowered by your opponent, ie weight vs. strength

I haven't been able to find complete combine results for Marner, just top 10's in each test for the 2015 draft class, but it looks like he only scored high in the anaerobic fatigue test. He's also put on almost 5lbs since the combine, if that's an consolation to us: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2...raft-combine-complete-fitness-testing-results

(side note: that picture of Nylander doing a pull up at his combine makes me wonder why we were ever concerned about his size)

That only comes into play if an opposing player can hit him. People just love to gloss over that fact and assume that it's just super easy to catch smaller, more agile, elusive players in the middle of the ice. It's really not.

And being hit doesn't mean he's going to get hurt. There's honestly no scientific evidence of this in sports, it's a total conjecture based argument.

 

[Randy Randerson]

That only comes into play if an opposing player can hit him. People just love to gloss over that fact and assume that it's just super easy to catch smaller, more agile, elusive players in the middle of the ice. It's really not.

And being hit doesn't mean he's going to get hurt. There's honestly no scientific evidence of this in sports, it's a total conjecture based argument.

I didn't mean Scott Stevens-esque open ice massacres, just any physical contest in open ice without any structure to use as a stable base to push from - where the strength could come in to play. Getting hurt is one thing, but losing all the battles is another concern.

Personally I wouldn't want to plan for him never getting hit either, seems like planning for best case scenario

And in terms of science in sports, this is the same reason that NFL linemen intentionally put on weight - grounds them to use their massive strength, if you're too strong and lighter than the other body you're pushing, your body moves in the opposite direction of the force you're applying/in the direction of the force being applied by the other party.

If he's strong enough, his weight during play at the boards should be less of a concern because he can use the boards for leverage - the same reason that animals with exoskeletons are exponentially stronger than animals with endoskeletons, proportional to size - the muscles can use the skeleton as leverage. The opposite scenario is true for your tongue - strongest muscle in your body per pound, but not that strong because there's nothing to use for leverage


With all that being said, I'm not taking an extreme position on Marner being not NHL ready - I think he should go to the pros this year, would just like to see him gain a few pounds in an ideal scenario

 

[Mess]

The difference of course is that Mitch is 19 and will probably have a career playing weight in the 180's.
Maybe even 190lb.

Mitch is just young ... not small. Gaudreau and Ennis are small.

Agreed

There are currently ZERO players in the NHL who are < age 20 and < 170lbs. Marner is both and that might be 2 strikes against him already when he shows up at camp.

How much time Marner needs to age and fill-out naturally to reach that final playing weight range is what Leafs management is faced with deciding, in regards to his best long-term interest.

Are they going to let him play as the youngest & lightest player in the NHL, and how much risk to Marner is there in that decision with a prized high draft pick, when pleading patience as an organization?

If Marner was already 180-185lbs I think Leafs management would feel a lot more comfortable writing him into next years line-up in ink, instead pencil at the moment at 164lbs.

 

[Mr Hockey*]

I played at 205 ... when I dropped under 200, I was quicker but felt weaker. Mitch has to find that magic number. I remember Scott Stevens complaining he needed to drop 2 lbs

 

[ULF_55]

Agreed

There are currently ZERO players in the NHL who are < age 20 and < 170lbs. Marner is both and that might be 2 strikes against him already when he shows up at camp.

How much time Marner needs to age and fill-out naturally to reach that final playing weight range is what Leafs management is faced with deciding, in regards to his best long-term interest.

Are they going to let him play as the youngest & lightest player in the NHL, and how much risk to Marner is there in that decision with a prized high draft pick, when pleading patience as an organization?

If Marner was already 180-185lbs I think Leafs management would feel a lot more comfortable writing him into next years line-up in ink, instead pencil at the moment at 164lbs.

Well it isn't really even a rush to get him into the NHL.

This current group of Leafs' fans are a patient lot and could care less if Marner makes the NHL this year, or even next.

We are patient enough to wait for him to be 100% ready, and will not wish him into the NHL just for bragging rights.

 

[Purity*]

Jarvis would probably be considered an outlier for his size though, no? Especially playing in that era. He's also 2 inches shorter and 6lbs heavier than current Marner, a little denser body.

The Marner weight topic is probably more just something to pass the time on HF boards in august, but we don't have enough info to dismiss it as totally unwarranted either. If he plays at 5'11" and 164lbs, he'll be one of the lightest and least dense bodies in the league (unless we're talking about some of the larger light players like Wayne Simmonds, but then we get into a smaller size gap between them and their competitors)

We'll have to see how he handles playing against men for the first time

"Larger" light players? You mean taller light players?

Weight is an indicator of potential strength but it's not even close to the sole deciding factor of strength like some seem to be led to believe. People want to be led by the fact that Marner being 164 pounds is the sole indicator of how strong he is, but that's just not true, there's a good chance he's stronger than his size indicates. He's only 19 right now, once he matures into his younger 20's everybody will wonder why this was even a concern to begin with.

I'm sick of citing all of the usual examples of small players excelling in the NHL, just go take a look around people, you can start with the current Art-Ross winner.

 

[Purity*]

I think people are still caught up in this 90's and early 2000's brand of hockey when you got the likes of Stevens and Pronger looking to smash you the second they know they can get away with it.

It's quite a bit different now. When Marner is up against Shea Weber the only time he gets clocked is if he gets caught with his head down, and I'd like to think he's smart enough not to do that. It's not like in the 90's where as soon as the ref looked away he'll get smashed with crosschecks.

 

[Menzinger]

Agreed

For the first few years I think Leaf Nation fans are going to hold their collective breaths every time Marner puts himself into a dangerous situation or takes a big hit, hoping he bounces right back up.

In time with experience smaller players learn how to avoid these situations, while adapting their games to prevent unnecessary punishment and avoid danger zones as self preservation for their own livelihood and longevity. Only going to the net when its safe and picking their spots when the coast is clear.

Marner has been a small player all his life in comparison to his age group and as such has already learned some of the tricks in open ice to pivot or leave his skates to minimize the impact on him in collisions to absorb big hits better without taking the full brunt of a bigger player verses smaller player head-on impact and getting run over in the railroad tracks.

As you pointed out however as a winger you're often cornered and pinned against the boards where escapability to avoid getting blasted into the boards by a +200 lbs player is going to hurt and leave a mark and becomes unavoidable.

One of the reason perhaps Hunter upon drafting Marner saw him as a future centre as opposed to a winger, was because of that very concern of keeping him in open ice up the middle or the point on the PP which decreases the odds of taking unnecessary punishment getting smushed into the boards.

I would be extremely, extremely surprised if Centres experience less physicality in a game - especially since most people tend to want their team's to be larger down the middle because they're ecepected to play a more physical style of game.

I think the idea that the Leafs drafted Marner to be a centre due to supposed less physical risk to be preposterous