Miscellaneous NHL Talk XLII - The answer to life, the universe, and everything

[Appleyard]

Am I the only one that would take prime Giroux over a prime Toews? Or is that seeing thru orange-tinted glasses?

I mean, Giroux vs Toews:

Giroux:

Hart finishes: 3, 3, 4
Point finishes: 2, 3, 3, 10
P/GP finishes: 2, 6, 7

Toews:

Hart finishes: 4, 6, 10
Point finishes: -
P/GP finishes: -

Then top 10 seasons in era adjusted P/GP between the two:

1. Giroux: 1.34 (11-12, 110 point pace)
2. Giroux: 1.27 (17-18, 104 point pace)
3. Giroux: 1.17 (13-14, 96 point pace)
4. Toews: 1.15 (12-13, 94 point pace)
5. Giroux: 1.11 (12-13, 91 point pace)
6. Giroux: 1.04 (17-18, 85 point pace)
7. Toews: 1.03 (10-11, 84 point pace)
8. Giroux: 1.02 (10-11, 83 point pace)
9. Giroux: 1.00 (14-15, 82 point pace)
10. Toews: 1.00 (13-14, 82 point pace)

Of course points are not everything... but I think it is fair to say that Giroux has ALL of the best three seasons between them.

 

[Deadpool8812]

Toews may go down as the most overrated player ever once he retires

 

[renberg]

The comp of G and Toews is a tough one. One could say, who has the rings? However that really doesn’t work. If G had been on those Hawks teams in place of Toews, he’d have the jewelry. I doubt that if Toews was on the Flyers in place of G, that they would have finished any better than they did. They’re both two top grade players.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Giroux may have a better career, but prime Toews was equivalent to current Couts.

Is he though?

 

[YEM]

Toews may go down as the most overrated player ever once he retires

wouldn't anyone rather be "overrated" with his trophy case vs. underrated with no silverware?

 

[TCTC]

All the "Toews is the most overrated player in the league" talk has made him underrated, imo. Maybe it's because he's one of the least flashy top players in the league and doesn't exactly ooze charisma.
Sure, he's been lucky to play on a juggernaut like the Hawks, but he was a big reason they were so successful.
He's been the perfect counterpart to Patrick Kane.

 

[Starat327]

wouldn't anyone rather be "overrated" with his trophy case vs. underrated with no silverware?

If I'm the actual player? Sure. But from an outsider viewpoint? Not really.

 

[Appleyard]

Is he though?

Couturier the last 5 seasons at 5v5:

2.05 P/60
+7.72 CF Rel
+0.38 ExGF Rel

Toews best 5 season spell at 5v5 (10-11 to 14-15):

2.45 P/60
+6.36 CF Rel
+0.42 ExGF Rel


Toews was really good at his best... and his scoring ability was massively underrated. Partially as he was never very good on the PP despite being an EV beast.

But yeh, since 2014-15 Toews has really only had one "good" season in terms of being a 2-way player. (2017-18)

Every other year since 2014-15 he has been below average on Blackhawks in terms of ExGF Rel.


Maybe a bit of "Marian Hossa" effect?

He basically stopped playing with him halfway through 2015-16... after spending 2012-13, 2013-14 and 2014-15 glued to him.

But tbf to Toews in 2009-10 to 2011-12 he was very good and only had Hossa as a linemate 25% of the time.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

At his peak as well as the Hawks peak people were like putting him right behind Crosby.

He’s since declined himself as well as the Hawks & that overrating his died down.

That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a very good player back then & still a good player in current form though.

 

[deadhead]

Toews carried Kane, Kane is one of the worst defensive forwards in the NHL for an extended period.
As Toews declined, Kane was exposed.

 

[Appleyard]

Toews carried Kane, Kane is one of the worst defensive forwards in the NHL for an extended period.
As Toews declined, Kane was exposed.

Tbf though Toews and Kane did not really play together between 2011-12 and 2017-18.

Kane was with:

Bolland
Handzus
Richards
Anisimov
Schmaltz

And yeh, over last two have been together "more" but still Kane has played more with Strome, albeit not by much.

 

[Appleyard]

Kane has not put up positive raw or rel ExGF% since 2013-14... jeez.

But his shooting talent, having Panarin for 2 years, and Corey Crawford have saved him from total disaster.

 

[deadhead]

Kane has not put up positive raw or rel ExGF% since 2013-14... jeez.

But his shooting talent, having Panarin for 2 years, and Corey Crawford have saved him from total disaster.

Kane is the most overrated player in the league.
Compare to Sidney, who is just as talented offensively, but worked hard to become a plus defensive player.

 

[Jtown]

Kane has not put up positive raw or rel ExGF% since 2013-14... jeez.

But his shooting talent, having Panarin for 2 years, and Corey Crawford have saved him from total disaster.

take a break from advanced stats. Patrick kane is probably the most talented player in the nhl. If not for physical limitations he would be undoubtedly the best player in the league.

He is the greatest American forward of all time ainec.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

take a break from advanced stats. Patrick kane is probably the most talented player in the nhl. If not for physical limitations he would be undoubtedly the best player in the league.

He is the greatest American forward of all time ainec.

If you only look at one end of the ice...sure.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Did McDavid’s leg fall off?

 

[Jtown]

Did McDavid’s leg fall off?

Mcdavid is fantastic, but i think Kane is in a league of his own when it comes to pure skill. McDavid's physical aspects give him a leg up on anyone else in the league.

 

[Appleyard]

take a break from advanced stats. Patrick kane is probably the most talented player in the nhl. If not for physical limitations he would be undoubtedly the best player in the league.

He is the greatest American forward of all time ainec.

He is awesome and still a net positive because what he brings is so unique. So few players have the hands and shooting talent to overcome generally getting outshot and outchanced while on ice... yet he does. It is pretty amazing in itself.

But he has always sucked defensively and does even more so now... if he was a Russian he would have a worse rep as a result of that. He is also one of the more sheltered players in the league.

He is a first ballot HHoFer and deserves to be as well. But it does not change that inside the red-line he is a massive negative.

It is not just about his physical limitations... if he was still 5'10 and slight but just played defence at ~Claude Giroux level as a winger he might well be the best player in the league! Brad Marchand is smaller and fantastic defensively.

 

[VladDrag]

Mcdavid is fantastic, but i think Kane is in a league of his own when it comes to pure skill. McDavid's physical aspects give him a leg up on anyone else in the league.

I think you’re underrating McDavid’s skills. It’s not that he’s just fast, his hands work just as fast as his legs.

To just hold on the puck at that pace is very difficult, let alone make the moves he makes at that pace. Nobody in the NHL can do what he can do.

 

[Striiker]

Am I the only one that would take prime Giroux over a prime Toews? Or is that seeing thru orange-tinted glasses?

Not at all. Giroux is the correct answer.

Toews has always been overrated because of the team he's been on and the TEAM accomplishments. Unfortunately many don't understand the difference between teams and individuals when judging either.

 

[PALE PWNR]

take a break from advanced stats. Patrick kane is probably the most talented player in the nhl. If not for physical limitations he would be undoubtedly the best player in the league.

He is the greatest American forward of all time ainec.

Agreed, he's electric. One of the very few guys where you can just see when hes going to go score. He gets the puck on his stick, makes his way up ice, the anticipation grows, and he delivers, more often than not.

 

[Stizzle]

Off hand I want to say it’s Providence’s HC that is slated to be the HC next year. Hopefully he’s not as rigid as Sandelin was in bringing the college game/philosophy to that level.

Nate Leamon, from Providence, is the last person I'd want coaching a team full of talented, future NHL players. Watching his team, while JOB attended, was a chore and a half.

I'd honestly just cross any player off my draft list that is slated to attend Providence. It's that bad. Totally suppressive. Combine the worst parts of Hak and Terry Murray, and you have Nate Leamon imo.

 

[Starat327]

Nate Leamon, from Providence, is the last person I'd want coaching a team full of talented, future NHL players. Watching his team, while JOB attended, was a chore and a half.

I'd honestly just cross any player off my draft list that is slated to attend Providence. It's that bad. Totally suppressive. Combine the worst parts of Hak and Terry Murray, and you have Nate Leamon imo.

Jesus, that's damning.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Vinny Prospal played hockey this year.

Václav Prospal at eliteprospects.com

 

[FLYguy3911]