Miscellaneous NHL talk, summer Part two

[JojoTheWhale]

Imagine trying to justify John Carlson as a top 40 player in March.

 

[deadhead]

If you look at Carlson's last five years (i.e. his prime), doesn't he remind you of Matt Carle at his peak?
1.00 pp/60, 0.69 p1/60, Corsi 49.43%, CorsiRel -0.80, GF 52.63, xGF 49.97, xGFrel 0.27
Carle 2009-14
0.94 pp/60, 0.49 p1/60, Corsi 50.01%, CorsiRel -0.09, GF 55.49, xGF 52.43, xGFrel 1.97

 

[Striiker]

What a **** show. Kopitar dragged his team kicking and screaming into playoffs playing with corpse of Brown and some kid by name Iafallo while being his usual selke self.

MacKinnon exploded and had McDavidesque season when he was terrorizing his opponents every single time with a puck on his stick.

Giroux was on ice for like 70% of flyers goals and the play has always gone through him.

McDavid had 100 points while being literally sabotaged by his organization at every turn.

And then there's Hall who had fantastic year, but looking at nerdstats and seeing that not only was 18 yo hischier scoring at higher rate, when separated he had massive advantage over Hall. I have to admit though I'm big fanboy of him so I'm clearly biased.

On top of his elite level of play and carrying his team, Giroux also had the bonus storyline of having an incredible bounce back season, where he proved people wrong and showed he’s not declining at all.

Things like that definitely shouldn’t factor into the voting, but they definitely do because the media loves that shit, so I’m not sure why they’d suddenly ignore it now.

And I’m not even saying Giroux had to be the one to win it, but he definitely should have gotten more votes than Hall. The poor guy has never gotten the respect he deserves, from the media, Hockey Canada, or clueless “Flyers fans”, so Im not surprised he’s still being underrated.

102 points, 35 goals, career year, hardcore carries his team to the playoffs by playing out of his mind all year, and especially in the last handful of games, but nah... mediocre player. idiots.

 

[deadhead]

I don't think Giroux was disrespected, Hall had less talent around him at forward, Nico, a very talented rookie but still 18, and Bratt who had one good month before going MIA or Palmieri, who's a 2nd/3rd line forward playing on the 1st line.
Hall carried the load 16:08 at ES, Nico was only 13:44, so Hall was doing a lot of double shifting. He was also the key to their PP.

 

[Rebels57]

On top of his elite level of play and carrying his team, Giroux also had the bonus storyline of having an incredible bounce back season, where he proved people wrong and showed he’s not declining at all.

Things like that definitely shouldn’t factor into the voting, but they definitely do because the media loves that ****, so I’m not sure why they’d suddenly ignore it now.

And I’m not even saying Giroux had to be the one to win it, but he definitely should have gotten more votes than Hall. The poor guy has never gotten the respect he deserves, from the media, Hockey Canada, or clueless “Flyers fans”, so Im not surprised he’s still being underrated.

102 points, 35 goals, career year, hardcore carries his team to the playoffs by playing out of his mind all year, and especially in the last handful of games, but nah... mediocre player. idiots.

You'd have to be a completely and total f***ing numbskull to think something so outrageously stupid.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Lol@ Buff being 29.
He is so damn overrated

 

[Striiker]

You'd have to be a completely and total ****ing numbskull to think something so outrageously stupid.

Or trolling.

The line is blurred. Hard to tell anymore...

 

[Ghosts Beer]

That top 50 list has some dubious rankings, but there are players ranked worse than Giroux who you could make an argument are better. Kane is one example.

 

[deadhead]

I'm not sold on Kane, I think he's less responsible defensively than Giroux.

 

[Magua]

"I think"

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I'm not sold on Kane, I think he's less responsible defensively than Giroux.

Kane has had a hell of a career. More points/ game than Giroux. More trophies than Giroux. A great playoff history. 3 Stanley Cups. Maybe he isn’t as good defensively as Giroux, but I don’t think it’s a big enough disparity to overtake everything else. And I don’t think Giroux’s D was particularly good the last few seasons, which is a reason they moved him to wing.

 

[deadhead]

He also had Toews in his prime, Giroux is now getting Couts in his prime.

I don't think Flyer fans realize fortunate we are, Couts, Patrick, Frost, Vorobyev, Rubtsov, O'Brien, strength up the middle is not going to be an issue going forward!

 

[JojoTheWhale]

There's an interesting discussion to be had on Laine. I think you could justify having him both significantly higher because his skills are freakish enough to be an outlier and lower because you wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Deadhead, you make a good point regarding who is the Flyers’ MVP - Giroux or Couturier? It’s a tough call. Couturier has elevated the play of all of his linemates, including Giroux, who rebounded to a career year playing on Couturier’s wing. Couturier gets the difficult defensive matchups at center. Couturier was much better in the playoffs. Would the Flyers’ chances of winning in the playoffs be worse if Giroux were out, or Couturier?

Don’t know, but if people think Couturier is the bigger loss, I don’t think it’s as outlandish as some might think.

 

[Striiker]

Kane has had a hell of a career. More points/ game than Giroux. More trophies than Giroux. A great playoff history. 3 Stanley Cups. Maybe he isn’t as good defensively as Giroux, but I don’t think it’s a big enough disparity to overtake everything else. And I don’t think Giroux’s D was particularly good the last few seasons, which is a reason they moved him to wing.

Team awards have no place in a comparison between players.

Deadhead, you make a good point regarding who is the Flyers’ MVP - Giroux or Couturier? It’s a tough call. Couturier has elevated the play of all of his linemates, including Giroux, who rebounded to a career year playing on Couturier’s wing. Couturier gets the difficult defensive matchups at center. Couturier was much better in the playoffs. Would the Flyers’ chances of winning in the playoffs be worse if Giroux were out, or Couturier?

Don’t know, but if people think Couturier is the bigger loss, I don’t think it’s as outlandish as some might think.

Giroux for sure.

The gap in points is too big to ignore and Giroux was absolutely insane to end the year and drag this team into the playoffs. From March onwards, Giroux had 28 points in 19 games ...

 

[FlyTimmo]

Kane semi-recently, had one of the most dominant seasons of the decade. 46 goals, 106 points... 17 point lead on the next closest player. Not to mention it was in the lowest scoring season since before the lockout.

Giroux has had plenty of very good seasons, and is probably ~ equal to Kane during their prime years, but Giroux hasn't quite touched Kane's level of dominance in 15-16.

 

[Adtar02]

I don't think Giroux was disrespected, Hall had less talent around him at forward, Nico, a very talented rookie but still 18, and Bratt who had one good month before going MIA or Palmieri, who's a 2nd/3rd line forward playing on the 1st line.
Hall carried the load 16:08 at ES, Nico was only 13:44, so Hall was doing a lot of double shifting. He was also the key to their PP.

The reason hall out scored teammates by so much was he played with different one on pp than 5v5.

 

[baudib1]

Flyers
Goals for 251
Goals Against 243

Devils
Goals for 248
Goals Against 244

Giroux had 34 goals and 68 assists, Hall had 39 and 54. It's really hard to argue the talent surrounding the two wasn't similar.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Laine is a flat out great it's not all down to his skillset. Dude can do everything albeit he takes a bit longer to get places.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Team awards have no place in a comparison between players.



Giroux for sure.

The gap in points is too big to ignore and Giroux was absolutely insane to end the year and drag this team into the playoffs. From March onwards, Giroux had 28 points in 19 games ...

Being a huge playoff force in 3 Stanley Cup wins has “no place” in the Kane vs. Giroux discussion? Really? I think it has some place. Certainly not none.

And my point about it being worthy of discussion to debate whether losing Giroux or Couturier would be more damaging to the Flyers’ chances *in the playoffs* seems worthy of considering that Couturier was a much more effective player this playoffs than Giroux, even playing severely injured. I have never discounted what Giroux did in March to help them get there. He was amazing. But Couturier was amazing this season, too, & better in the playoffs. It’s not as clear cut who’d they’d miss more in the playoffs as you seem to believe.

 

[Striiker]

Being a huge playoff force in 3 Stanley Cup wins has “no place” in the Kane vs. Giroux discussion? Really? I think it has some place. Certainly not none.

And my point about it being worthy of discussion to debate whether losing Giroux or Couturier would be more damaging to the Flyers’ chances *in the playoffs* seems worthy of considering that Couturier was a much more effective player this playoffs than Giroux, even playing severely injured. I have never discounted what Giroux did in March to help them get there. He was amazing. But Couturier was amazing this season, too, & better in the playoffs. It’s not as clear cut who’d they’d miss more in the playoffs as you seem to believe.

Then you should be talking about his individual playoff numbers, not the fact that his team ended up winning the Cup. If his team ended up losing in the cup finals, but he performed exactly the same, it wouldn’t have been any less impressive. It would just mean his team wasn’t as good.


For the second part, I should have been more clear. I was responding to the first part, about which one was the Flyers MVP last year.

And your description of this years playoffs is off. Couturier only was “much more effective” in one game of the two games when he was away from Crosby’s line and playing against far weaker competition. At which point Giroux was playing with Filppula. When he was with Giroux, they were both struggling because of the matchup. In games they won, they both looked good. What set Couturier apart was that crazy last game that they lost, but that alone doesn’t re-write what happened in the others.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Then you should be talking about his individual playoff numbers, not the fact that his team ended up winning the Cup. If his team ended up losing in the cup finals, but he performed exactly the same, it wouldn’t have been any less impressive. It would just mean his team wasn’t as good.


For the second part, I should have been more clear. I was responding to the first part, about which one was the Flyers MVP last year.

And your description of this years playoffs is off. Couturier only was “much more effective” in one game of the two games when he was away from Crosby’s line and playing against far weaker competition. At which point Giroux was playing with Filppula. When he was with Giroux, they were both struggling because of the matchup. In games they won, they both looked good. What set Couturier apart was that crazy last game that they lost, but that alone doesn’t re-write what happened in the others.

My claim was that Kane was a huge contributor to 3 Stanley Cup wins & that should be factored into his evaluation as a player.

Do you disagree?

And Couturier had 9 points in 5 playoff games, & a monster game with a torn MCL when you excuse Giroux’s previous playoff failings on injuries. Giroux had 3 points in 6. Don’t act like there was a negligible difference in their playoff accomplishments this season.

 

[Striiker]

My claim was that Kane was a huge contributor to 3 Stanley Cup wins & that should be factored into his evaluation as a player.

Do you disagree?

And Couturier had 9 points in 5 playoff games, & a monster game with a torn MCL when you excuse Giroux’s previous playoff failings on injuries. Giroux had 3 points in 6. Don’t act like there was a negligible difference in their playoff accomplishments this season.

Kane’s performance should be factored in.
Winning the cup should not.
As I literally just explained.

And like I said, you’re misrepresenting their playoff performances. Not sure if it’s intentional or accidental. The difference in their performances was a single game, which was obviously an anomaly.

 

[deadhead]

Striiker must have a serious man crush on G.
Wonder if he has his "Fat Head" on his wall of his bedroom.

 

[Magua]

So weird to admire and defend one of this franchise’s greatest players ever. Just rub your nips to VandeVelde and Weise and Hagg and call it a day.