Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LIX: Great Expectations by Charles Dickens and oh the #13 Lottery Pick

Status
Not open for further replies.

mja

Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt
Jan 7, 2005
12,647
29,096
Lucy the Elephant's Belly
If he arrives a tenth of a second earlier, he prevents a goal and it's a great play. If he reaches out with his stick a poke checks the puck off of Evans' stick, he still blows him up, but it's a great play.

Look, I'm an old school guy - I've been watching since the mid-80's - but that hit is just not acceptable anymore, if it ever was. It's just not ok to scramble a guy's brains over hockey, especially with that level of intention. We know too much now, we know we're talking about more than just a guy getting his bell run. We're talking about potentially lifelong impact to his quality of life. f*** that.

And even in the old days, that hit would have started a line brawl.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
128,076
165,984
Armored Train
Look, I'm an old school guy - I've been watching since the mid-80's - but that hit is just not acceptable anymore, if it ever was. It's just not ok to scramble a guy's brains over hockey, especially with that level of intention. We know too much now, we know we're talking about more than just a guy getting his bell run. We're talking about potentially lifelong impact to his quality of life. f*** that.

And even in the old days, that hit would have started a line brawl.

Yeah it's a message sender, which would be expected to feature immediate bench clearing counter-messaging.
 

CutOnDime97

Too Showman
Mar 29, 2008
15,589
9,786
I'm torn on this hit. Yes, it is charging and yes it is bad for the players to feature such brain-mushing things.

And yet there's some Unga-Bunga part of my brain going "HARD PLAYOFF HOCKEY, LEGIT PLAY" anyhow.
Thing is if he's trying to prevent the goal why not go for the puck with your stick? It's a really strange hit for sure
 
  • Like
Reactions: BernieParent

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
I'm torn on this hit. Yes, it is charging and yes it is bad for the players to feature such brain-mushing things.

And yet there's some Unga-Bunga part of my brain going "HARD PLAYOFF HOCKEY, LEGIT PLAY" anyhow.

There's a fine line in both the NHL and NFL between dirty hits with intent to injure, and clean hits that might injure, but that's wasn't the intent.
Get rid of hitting and the NHL is ice capades with sticks and pucks, some players might like that, but I'd find it boring.
One thing I like about watching playoff hockey is the increase in intensity, with players flying around and hitting anything that moves.

Now I have no problem cutting back on dirty stuff, like cross checking someone in the face or prone on the ice, that's just dirty play.

But defensemen should know fear when they go for the puck along the back boards, that's what separates the "men from the boys," can you coolly gather the puck and make a good pass just before some forward tries to make you part of the boards, and even better, can you do so and then either avoid the hit or like Patrick with Friedman, position yourself to give as good as you get.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,854
86,240
Nova Scotia
As I head out, I wonder this....if Mark S HAD touched Evans stick, causing the puck to roll off...and the hit continues as it played out, would it be considered a great play and a bad result?
 
  • Like
Reactions: BernieParent

Cody Webster

Registered User
Jul 18, 2014
25,248
23,362
Thing is if he's trying to prevent the goal why not go for the puck with your stick? It's a really strange hit for sure
That's what has me torn. If he goes for the puck, he's close enough that he likely prevents the goal, while still blowing him up.

If he prevents the goal and still blows him up, I bet 90% of the people look at that play as a great play/hit
 

Cody Webster

Registered User
Jul 18, 2014
25,248
23,362
As I head out, I wonder this....if Mark S HAD touched Evans stick, causing the puck to roll off...and the hit continues as it played out, would it be considered a great play and a bad result?[/QUOTE]
I basically just said that same thing. My answer is absolutely. 90% of the people that hate this hit would love it if he prevented the goal, imo
 

flyersnorth

Registered User
Oct 7, 2019
4,429
6,841
I'm torn on this hit. Yes, it is charging and yes it is bad for the players to feature such brain-mushing things.

And yet there's some Unga-Bunga part of my brain going "HARD PLAYOFF HOCKEY, LEGIT PLAY" anyhow.

Same.

Ten years ago, that was a legitimate hockey hit. Headhunting was a thing that got the crowd going, part of the neanderthal warrior code.

But I would never want to see a Flyer demolished like that, and the same is true for any hockey player, with the notable exception of Tom Wilson. He is subhuman trash.

We just know too much now about brain injuries.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
128,076
165,984
Armored Train
Same.

Ten years ago, that was a legitimate hockey hit. Headhunting was a thing that got the crowd going, part of the neanderthal warrior code.

But I would never want to see a Flyer demolished like that, and the same is true for any hockey player, with the notable exception of Tom Wilson. He is subhuman trash.

We just know too much now about brain injuries.


Yep.

But that part of the mind that enjoys seeing someone just get lit up occasionally still persists beneath the logic and knowledge.
 

flyersnorth

Registered User
Oct 7, 2019
4,429
6,841
Yep.

But that part of the mind that enjoys seeing someone just get lit up occasionally still persists beneath the logic and knowledge.

Totally. We are animals, after all.

I remember that Campbell hit on Umberger. Made me sick to my stomach. But I remember thinking at the time "damn, he needs to have his head up" or more likely, "his teammate totally sent him a suicide pass."

Blaming the victim, which was par for the course at the time.

Rock'em sock'em hockey! Haha remember those vids?
 

bennysflyers16

Registered User
Jan 26, 2004
84,688
62,750
As I head out, I wonder this....if Mark S HAD touched Evans stick, causing the puck to roll off...and the hit continues as it played out, would it be considered a great play and a bad result?

I think good play , horrid result. But he made ZERO effort at using his stick to actually save an inevitable goal.
 

BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
24,674
44,301
Chasm of Sar (north of Montreal, Qc)
I'm not saying that hit should be allowed. All I'm saying is the charging rule is so poorly and vaguely written that you can't point to a specific thing and say, that's exactly why he should be suspended. We all know that hit has no place in the game but they have done nothing to really write it out of the game.

Beyond that the NHL seems to care very little about intent I situations like this. I agree MS just wanted to blow Evans up but it wouldn't be hard for him to argue that he was trying to beat him to the corner of the net and to separate him from the puck. Plus he could argue if he continues to stride until the point of contact and reaches to make a stick play there would still be a very violent collision but with both players in a vulnerable spot.

I think the persistent that the NHL has set indicates they don't think this is an egregious charge. A major yes and possibly a fine but not a major suspension. The Wilson-Schenn hit you mentioned only resulted in a major and a fine and there were more issues you could point too that were clearly wrong with the hit.

I would like to see the rule rewritten so intentional contact above a certain speed (which can be easily tracked now) is automatically a suspendable offense. Because if there isn't something black and white written into that charging rule its just to murky for the DoPS to make the correct common sense decision.

P.S. The wild card is how the DoPS wildly reacts to there being an injury to the hit player. That combined with the optics of the stretcher coming out could massively sway the outcome of this suspension. Which by itself is a huge issue to me. The suspension of the hitter should be based entirely on their intent and action and not the resulting injury. MS should be taught a lesson based on his shitty actions regardless of the severity of injury to Evans. MS shouldn't get a lighter suspension if Evans had seen him coming and bailed out of the play.

Thanks for your response, Gap. This is the dilemma of defining penalties on a spectrum. Hitting is allowed and even encouraged, so what are the boundaries? To me, the rules are the signs against which intent can be logically intuited. Strides, straight line, and other markers of intent to hit are the evidence; however, it isn't easily quantified, and your proposal of a minimum speed will likely only open up more questions, not to mention excessively punish the better skaters. Plus, context is key; a player could have taken 6-7 hard strides to get into position, only to have the puck unexpectedly on the stick of a player in his trajectory.

In broad strokes, Scheifele has two competing objectives: how do I prevent Evans from scoring while not injuring either of us? You make a great point that the speed with which he needs to be at the place he needs to is dangerously close to the boards and net, so a Superman dive will likely be very painful for him, at the least. Likewise, fully-on skating and a stick stretch puts him and Evans in a vulnerable position. And doing nothing isn't the model of determination that Scheifele wants to show, particularly in front of his home fans.

Let me just pause and objectively identify the obvious "one of these things is not like the other" list I just created. Injury to one, injury to both, or shame against expectations. This is our lot as sports fans to demand heroes while having dissonant ideas about what is heroic.

[climbs down wobbily off soapbox]

Given Scheifele's exit from the playoffs last season early in the first game, I am not unsympathetic if he has a heightened anxiety about throwing his body into the boards or net at top speed. He has few good options charging down the ice. But safety has to be a principal concern as he approaches Evans, and (I will offer) his misfortune last season should be on his mind as the potential giver of a thunderous hit.

I disagree with the merit of Scheifele arguing that he was doing all he could to prevent the goal since a) he stopped skating and b) he didn't even try to extend his stick. Probably the least bad option would be to race down, do a three-quarter stick stretch and brace to give a hit. Am I asking a lot? Yes, but it seems to me that a both/and approach would better tick off the boxes of best outcomes and would be something an experienced NHL player could process in the time he had.

I completely agree with your PS about how injury influences the DoPS's decision. They have stated as much, so this isn't inference. Wilson probably would have received a suspension had Schenn missed at least the rest of that game and one or two more. Intent is intent, careless is careless, regardless of outcome.

Sorry for the thesis on this. Occupational hazard.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Beef Invictus

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
128,076
165,984
Armored Train
Totally. We are animals, after all.

I remember that Campbell hit on Umberger. Made me sick to my stomach. But I remember thinking at the time "damn, he needs to have his head up" or more likely, "his teammate totally sent him a suicide pass."

Blaming the victim, which was par for the course at the time.

Rock'em sock'em hockey! Haha remember those vids?

Friend of mine from the track team also played football. Being fast and agile, he was tasked with punt returns. He once made the poor decision not to fair catch a punt, and got absolutely ruined with a titanic headshot. Thoroughly concussed. Felt awful for him, and it was gutwrenching watching him get stretchered off.

That Monday I was sitting with the QB and a couple other guys in the coach's office watching and reacting to the hit on repeat. Because it was probably the biggest and most ruinous hit of the year statewide, and thus a spectacle to behold. Thanks for your sacrifice, Joe.
 

BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
24,674
44,301
Chasm of Sar (north of Montreal, Qc)
As I head out, I wonder this....if Mark S HAD touched Evans stick, causing the puck to roll off...and the hit continues as it played out, would it be considered a great play and a bad result?

I begrudgingly say great play and bad result. Scheifele had to skate all-out to prevent the goal so he didn't have the option to just block Evans' access to the open net or "stand him up." Some attempt with the stick, though, likely takes a bit of an edge off the hit; however, it makes Scheifele more vulnerable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Beef Invictus

FlyerNutter

In the forest, a man learns what it means to live
Jun 22, 2018
12,473
28,480
Winnipeg
I’d argue that not suspending him and letting him go out there the next few immediate games is more of a punishment.

Edmundson is already out there saying they are ready to make his life miserable.

I’m torn on the hit itself, at that speed it’s easy to judge but it seems he was quite committed to blowing him up.
 

mdm815

Registered User
Dec 22, 2005
1,261
802
pa
If that was young Beezer getting lit up, a small part of me would wonder why he put himself in that spot. A larger part of me would be livid that a player clearly targeted him like that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tripod

TheKingPin

Registered User
Nov 16, 2005
20,639
10,102
Philadelphia, PA
I’m glad he is going to be “ok” but he still had a brain injury at work. That’s not ok at all.

Imagine how Lindros would have been in this era.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad