Proposal: Minnesota-Ottawa

TheBradyBunch

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Dec 17, 2008
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You’re right, it hasn’t been confirmed whether he will or not, but so far he hasn’t, and this is a discussion board, so let’s pretend he won’t sign, and go from there.

You’re off your ****ing rocker if you think Dumba gets traded for a 26 year old 60 point RW. A guy who’s one year from UFA.

Okay, let's assume the same for Zucker, then. And the same for William Karlsson, while we're at it. Larkin should be available for cheap, no? Again - what do we need to add to Ryan Dzingel for Zucker?

Stone scored at an 88 point pace last season despite being on a hapless team. He has scored at a 70 point pace since his the start of his rookie season. He is elite defensively and is one of the few wingers who consistently receives Selke votes. He is arguably the best player in the league in forcing turnovers. He is a top 10 winger in the game. Additionally, Stone is an RFA, and any team acquiring him would discuss a contract with him before making the deal. Zucker is in the exact same position, but I'm not deluded enough to believe that he will go to UFA next season.

All your posts are filled with pie-in-the-sky, BS assumptions that suit your wishful thinking, whereby the Wild will somehow acquire an elite winger for quarters on the dollar.

It's not going to happen.
 

BleedBlue14

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We don't have RW prospects either except for Kunin who could arguably be a tandem center with Eriksson Ek depending on what happens with Staal and Koivu.
Like I said, this deal ONLY happens if Ottawa can't sign Stone to a long term contract that they're satisfied with. Because of that as well, any high level prospect (Kunin, Greenway, Kaprizov) is a no go. That would be too much value going to Ottawa for a marginal upgrade and a shift of handedness.

Again, the basis for the deal is:

Zucker (4-6 yrs, ~$6M)
Small +

for

Stone (RFA or 1 yr deal)

I think you may be over looking that there will be at least 10-15 teams lining up trying to do the same thing. Which is fine. I’m sure the value is alright, probably favors Minn a bit if some of the better adds are off the table. Then it just becomes essentially a bidding war and trying to figure out which direction Dorion is wanting to go
 

ATdaisuki

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Dec 4, 2012
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Sens fans have believed stone could be a 70-ppg winger for a long time. He put up great numbers this year. We'll pass on what seems to essentially be a straight swap for zucker. If he were to be moved, it would probably be for a younger roster player or for a futures package.
 

AKL

Danila Yurov Fan Club President
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Okay, let's assume the same for Zucker, then. And the same for William Karlsson, while we're at it. Larkin should be available for cheap, no? Again - what do we need to add to Ryan Dzingel for Zucker?

Stone scored at an 88 point pace last season despite being on a hapless team. He has scored at a 70 point pace since his the start of his rookie season. He is elite defensively and is one of the few wingers who consistently receives Selke votes. He is arguably the best player in the league in forcing turnovers. He is a top 10 winger in the game. Additionally, Stone is an RFA, and any team acquiring him would discuss a contract with him before making the deal. Zucker is in the exact same position, but I'm not deluded enough to believe that he will go to UFA next season.

All your posts are filled with pie-in-the-sky, BS assumptions that suit your wishful thinking, whereby the Wild will somehow acquire an elite winger for quarters on the dollar.

It's not going to happen.

If you want to make a thread asking the same question about Zucker, Karlsson, Larkin or whoever else, feel free to. This one is about Stone, and with Ottawa being a complete tire-fire, Hoffman getting traded, Karlsson likely getting traded, or best case scenario, he stays another year before leaving in UFA, talk of Duchene being shopped, it's a perfectly valid question to ask whether Stone feels like re-signing with a team that will likely be a bottom 5 or 10 team for the foreseeable future for his prime years.

Stone may have put up an 88 point pace, but he still only put up 62 points. I get why you would want to keep him if you think he can consistently be an 88 point player, but he doesn't have that value. And he's scored at a 66 point pace since being drafted, yet again, has never even put up 66 points. And again, it's not a delusion to think Stone may want to explore his options next year considering the status of Ottawa as a team and an organization. Comparing Ottawa's situation and desirability to RFA's/UFA's to Minnesota's is a brain-dead move at best.

We're also not trying to acquire him for quarters on the dollar. Zucker is the same age, will likely come cheaper, and has only marginally lower offensive production.

I think you may be over looking that there will be at least 10-15 teams lining up trying to do the same thing. Which is fine. I’m sure the value is alright, probably favors Minn a bit if some of the better adds are off the table. Then it just becomes essentially a bidding war and trying to figure out which direction Dorion is wanting to go

I would fully expect there to be a bidding war for Stone if he becomes available. 10-15 teams sounds right. Maybe even 5-10 serious contenders. I would expect Zucker+small add would be in the top half as far as quality over quantity in those deals. Again, assuming Zucker is signed and Stone isn't, the value doesn't really favor Minnesota all that much. Some fans might argue adding to a signed Zucker to get an unsigned Stone favors Ottawa, even if the add isn't a top prospect.
 

AKL

Danila Yurov Fan Club President
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Sens fans have believed stone could be a 70-ppg winger for a long time. He put up great numbers this year. We'll pass on what seems to essentially be a straight swap for zucker. If he were to be moved, it would probably be for a younger roster player or for a futures package.

Good reply, thank you. I think this would be the smart thing for Ottawa to do if they have to move him. Hopefully that's what your ownership and management see as your best move as well.
 

TheBradyBunch

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We're also not trying to acquire him for quarters on the dollar. Zucker is the same age, will likely come cheaper, and has marginally lower offensive production.

I've seen you make this argument and was about to address it anyways.

Zucker has scored 80 fewer points than Stone over the past 4 years. If not for the Sens being out of the playoffs, Stone likely would have played more games and passed Zucker's raw totals, too. If you insist on looking at pace since being drafted, Stone has paced 66 points per 82 - Zucker has paced 43. Stone is leaps and bounds ahead of Zucker. Stone has been significantly better than Zucker at every single point of their careers in every facet of the game. You are consistently applying arguments to Stone that you won't dare apply to Zucker. That, to me, reeks of homerism and intellectual dishonesty. If Fenton believes that Stone is a 60 point winger who simply fulfills a handedness need, other teams will offer far, far more. Likely a moot point anyway, as I have little concern about Stone signing.

Anyways, I'm done - plenty of other folks will continue to tell you how unappealing your proposal is.
 

AKL

Danila Yurov Fan Club President
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I've seen you make this argument and was about to address it anyways.

Zucker has scored 80 fewer points than Stone over the past 4 years. If not for the Sens being out of the playoffs, Stone likely would have played more games and passed Zucker's raw totals, too. If you insist on looking at pace since being drafted, Stone has paced 66 points per 82 - Zucker has paced 43. Stone is leaps and bounds ahead of Zucker. Stone has been significantly better than Zucker at every single point of their careers in every facet of the game. You are consistently applying arguments to Stone that you won't dare apply to Zucker. That, to me, reeks of homerism and intellectual dishonesty. If Fenton believes that Stone is a 60 point winger who simply fulfills a handedness need, other teams will offer far, far more. Likely a moot point anyway, as I have little concern about Stone signing.

Anyways, I'm done - plenty of other folks will continue to tell you how unappealing your proposal is.

Stone has also received significantly better offensive minutes as well as 2 minutes more of PP time per game for three years. Like I said, Stone's P/60 is only marginally higher than Zucker's.
I'll also add, to your point earlier, that Stone has only finished above 18th in Selke voting once (6th). So no, he's not an "elite" defensive winger either. Especially if you consider that he's only averaged like :47 seconds of SH TOI/g over the last three years? You'd think an elite defensive player on a squad as bad as Ottawa would have more.

It's not a bad proposal as it was presented. You just think it's bad because you think Stone is a bonafide 70-80 point Selke winger (he's not), and you won't even entertain the idea that he may not re-sign with you.
 

2Pair

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Man, If they ever have an "on pace for" playoffs, Stone will be a superstar.
 
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AKL

Danila Yurov Fan Club President
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Man, If they ever have an "on pace for" playoffs, Stone will be a superstar.

A career 66 point pace while never once hitting 66 points might land him in the finals.
 

Clamshells

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Yes, Stone is marginally better because the only thing he has over Zucker is more than a one year track record. To go along with that, Stone has also seen significantly more PP time and premier offensive minutes in general over the past 3 years, and even still does not score at a significantly higher P/60 rate. His career high in points is 64, which is how many Zucker scored last year. Zucker is also the better goal scorer.

Keep Zucker then. Sens fans are not interested.
 

AKL

Danila Yurov Fan Club President
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Stone is really good. Obviously the '+Dumba' stuff is ridiculous, but it's more than just a 'small +' too.

When the premise is that Zucker is signed for 4-6 years and Stone is still an RFA or only on a 1 year contract, it's not.
 

AKL

Danila Yurov Fan Club President
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I think I have to side with Ottawa fans on this one. It does seem like a pretty one-sided premise designed to get a specific answer.

If someone wants to make a thread propsing a trade for Zucker with the assumption he doesn't sign a long term contract, more power to them. I'll discuss the deal as it's presented. However, as I stated earlier, it's not out of question to wonder if Stone will/won't sign a deal to stay in Ottawa through his prime years.
 

16thOverallSaveUs

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I think the add would have to be a 1st from us. Stones numbers are just better. Even though their even strength points are similar, Stone is a better power play guy and more serviceable in defensive situations. From what I’ve seen out of Stone from limited viewings, he has the potential to be elite. There’s points where I wonder how he sees a play developing. He’s such a smart player. I would love to have him, but with the uncertainty of his future, I wouldn’t give up Zucker, not to mention Zucker + a 1st. With an extension in place, that’s a different story.

Regardless, Ottawa should probably trade him for a package including good younger players.
 

16thOverallSaveUs

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Just laughable? How so? They simply asked how much of an add to get Zucker. They didn’t even say this and this for this. It’s not like he threw out a bunch of scraps and was like and we’re taking Stone home.

It was a simple question. Zucker + What gets you Stone. I mean come on. How is that laughable?
 

Digitalbooya

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Just laughable? How so? They simply asked how much of an add to get Zucker. They didn’t even say this and this for this. It’s not like he threw out a bunch of scraps and was like and we’re taking Stone home.

It was a simple question. Zucker + What gets you Stone. I mean come on. How is that laughable?
I think some posters just choose not read or assume that a + means something small (it doesn't, I actually was curious what else it would take in this scenario). There have been some good knowledgeable responses from Ottawa posters and it's not like it's common to see a Minnesota-Ottawa thread so there's knowledge to be had about each team's players.

Here's the OP again for everyone. Please read the bold:
:wild
Stone
:sens
Zucker
+

How far off in value is this and do Senators fans have any interest in a deal like this?

Not sure what the + would be, but open to a discussion about it.
 

TheBradyBunch

Registered User
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I think some posters just choose not read or assume that a + means something small (it doesn't, I actually was curious what else it would take in this scenario). There have been some good knowledgeable responses from Ottawa posters and it's not like it's common to see a Minnesota-Ottawa thread so there's knowledge to be had about each team's players.

Here's the OP again for everyone. Please read the bold:

The issue with the premise of Zucker + for Stone is that Zucker is not, in any way, shape, or form, the right centerpiece in a Mark Stone trade. Zucker is a very good piece - he would be amazing with Duchene, imo, and I'd happily give up other pieces for him - but he will never be the offensive engine of a team. That's what Stone is and has the ability to be. That is what the Senators need.

If Stone is dealt, it will be for a prospect with star potential or a DMan on a similar level as him (i.e Dumba). When you have responses saying that Stone is just marginally better than Zucker, that doesn't leave much room for discussion. When you have responses saying that we should assume Stone won't re-sign, that doesn't leave much room for discussion.

OP asked if Senators fans have any interest in a deal like this - the response has been a resounding (unanimous?) no. And rightfully so. The only player on Minnesota who is a viable centerpiece in a Stone trade is Dumba. If he is off the table, there's no discussion to be had. Zucker and the Wild's top prospect is not interesting in this scenario.
 
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gwh

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Mar 4, 2013
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:wild
Stone
:sens
Zucker
+

How far off in value is this and do Senators fans have any interest in a deal like this?

Not sure what the + would be, but open to a discussion about it.

Not so keen on giving up the best 1st checker on the team. On the otherhand Stone sure is huge and BB likes large bodies. Wild needs to trade out LWs and get more RWs.

I think this could be one of the trade options if Stone refuses to sign. Ottawa gets player with term+add, BB gets player with size .
 

Bjornar Moxnes

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Stone has also received significantly better offensive minutes as well as 2 minutes more of PP time per game for three years. Like I said, Stone's P/60 is only marginally higher than Zucker's.
I'll also add, to your point earlier, that Stone has only finished above 18th in Selke voting once (6th). So no, he's not an "elite" defensive winger either. Especially if you consider that he's only averaged like :47 seconds of SH TOI/g over the last three years? You'd think an elite defensive player on a squad as bad as Ottawa would have more.

It's not a bad proposal as it was presented. You just think it's bad because you think Stone is a bonafide 70-80 point Selke winger (he's not), and you won't even entertain the idea that he may not re-sign with you.

Selke voting is stupid honestly. Forsberg was 10th in 2015-2016, Arvidsson got votes in 2016-2017, Sissons got votes in 2017-2018.
 

KnuckChuckinTkachuk

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Sooo Zucker has 1 good season, yes 1.. where he scores 33 goals on a near 15% shooting and now he holds similar value to Stone? The guy that's been a 2 way force for about 3 years now and would be considered for Team Canada. LOLLLL to the OP trying to argue they are "similar or marginal".. not even close. He's Ottawa's BEST FORWARD.

Contracts aside, Zucker doesn't hold Stones jockstrap... close this crap thread.
 

Sureves

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Put it this way, Zucker can't be the centrepiece in a trade for Stone. The + in your proposal would need to be more valuable than Zucker
 
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