Milan Lucic Hints at Signing With Vancouver Next Off-Season.

[Disappointed EP40]

There are plenty of non-superstar veterans that play just as well between 32-34 (or close to that level), as they did during their prime years, whether they are PWF's, snipers, TWF's, Offensive defensemen, defensive defensemen, etc.

Cool. Super easy for you to name some PWFs then.

You said PWFs tend to last longer, when it seems the opposite.

 

[Disappointed EP40]

Hossa doesn't strike me as a powerforward.

Nash is 32, again he's not exactly a powerforward either.

Yea, the point is one has to reach to find 32+ PWFs that are doing well. Short window on those types IMO.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Cool. Super easy for you to name some PWFs then.

You said PWFs tend to last longer, when it seems the opposite.

Wait..........WHAT?!?!?!??!

I never said, "PWF's tend to last longer."

The argument being presented was that, "We should not sign a guy like Lucic because PWF's tend to decline once they hit the age of 30, and Lucic already showed signs of decline last year."

My argument was that Lucic may have had an "off-year" last year (as opposed to an actual decline) because Bergeron and Krejicki were injured and as result, Lucic did not have a top center to play with. I argued that, "lets see what Lucic does this season" before we pass judgement on him (I am of the opinion that Lucic will have a strong year playing alongside one of Kopitar or Carter).

I then argued that PWF's can still be good players until the age of 34, etc., and that if Lucic proved himself worthy this season, I'd be comfortable in signing him to a 6 year deal.

I never once made the statement that PWF "tend to last longer" than snipers, playmakers, TWF's, etc. Not sure where you got that from. Snipers, playmakers, and offensive defensemen tend to last much longer than PWF's, defensive defensemen (physical), and certain TWF's due to less physical demand on their bodies. However - that's not to say that PWF's, DD's, and TWF's become washed up at age 30. I don't think that's the case at all.

 

[arsmaster*]

Nash has been deemed a PWF ever since he was drafted, he's not one now?

Weird.

Are we talking about guys who drop the gloves and can play as the only definition for PWF's?

There aren't a lot of guys like Lucic in the NHL, but guys who are already slow in their primes don't age well at the NHL level if their games are predicated on power a la Lucic.

I mean who are the "real" comparables for Lucic out there....there isn't a lot, he's a rare type of player.

He'd need a Kreijci stapled to him for him to be as effective in 3 or 4 years as he is now, and even then 44 points isn't really that great for a guy who's likely to be getting $7m/yr.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Yea, the point is one has to reach to find 32+ PWFs that are doing well. Short window on those types IMO.

And that was my challenge to Y2Kanucks. Show me examples of PWF's that sharply declined once they hit 30-32.

The only guys that really fit this description are Brendan Morrow and Todd Bertuzzi.

Owen Nolan went into decline at age 34 (the age where I would want Lucic's contract to expire with the Canucks if he signed here).

Mike Richards and Ryan Malone's off-ice habits likely played more of a role in their decline, as opposed to their style of play. Vincent Lecavlier suffered a major concussion.

Darcy Tucker was more a "grinder" than a top flight PWF and so listing Tucker is an inappropriate example.

Rick Nash would be considered a PWF by many, and he's style thriving at the age of 32.

My point is this - If Lucic has a solid year, I'd absolutely be comfortable in signing him to a 6 year deal.

 

[arsmaster*]

And that was my challenge to Y2Kanucks. Show me examples of PWF's that sharply declined once they hit 30-32.

The only guys that really fit this description are Brendan Morrow and Todd Bertuzzi.

Owen Nolan went into decline at age 34 (the age where I would want Lucic's contract to expire with the Canucks if he signed here).

Mike Richards and Ryan Malone's off-ice habits likely played more of a role in their decline, as opposed to their style of play. Vincent Lecavlier suffered a major concussion.

Darcy Tucker was more a "grinder" than a top flight PWF and so listing Tucker is an inappropriate example.

Rick Nash would be considered a PWF by many, and he's style thriving at the age of 32.

My point is this - If Lucic has a solid year, I'd absolutely be comfortable in signing him to a 6 year deal.

Very few of these guys you continue to list have any similarities to Lucic.

Even Morrow who you're using is 5'11".

Rick Nash makes no sense as a comparable considering he's a top level goal scorer who has lead the league in goals prior.

Lucic's aura stems from him being able to beat people up, and that intimidation is starting to fade already (see Dalton Prout).

Every single one of the guys you list skates better as well.

 

[me2]

Singly handedly makes our fan-base look like idiots.

If Boser, McCann, Horvat, and Virtanen are all that in the tough-guy dept, we don't need Lucic.

You forgot Dorsett lollipop lollipop

 

[arsmaster*]

Are Kevin Stevens and Tim Kerr good examples of PWF's who fade after 30?

 

[God]

Shows more passion than anyone on our team plays with. Aren't you tired of seeing the players roll over and die after we get scored against?

If throwing a temper tantrum and throwing cheap shots when the team is losing is what you want to see, then I hope the WWE branches into hockey.

 

[y2kcanucks]

If throwing a temper tantrum and throwing cheap shots when the team is losing is what you want to see, then I hope the WWE branches into hockey.

Better than just going through the motions and letting your goalie get ventilated and your team getting completely embarrassed.

 

[Hardyvan123]

There are plenty of non-superstar veterans that play just as well between 32-34 (or close to that level), as they did during their prime years, whether they are PWF's, snipers, TWF's, Offensive defensemen, defensive defensemen, etc.

Dmen aren't a good example, most forwards fall off the cliff or slide down after 30.

We need to develop our young guys and draft better as well, going after a UFA only breeds false hope.

 

[arsmaster*]

Better than just going through the motions and letting your goalie get ventilated and your team getting completely embarrassed.

Umm. We did exactly that under torts. The score went from 5-1 to 9-1.

No moral victories there.

 

[Pip]

Better than just going through the motions and letting your goalie get ventilated and your team getting completely embarrassed.

It's not

 

[y2kcanucks]

Umm. We did exactly that under torts. The score went from 5-1 to 9-1.

No moral victories there.

We were a bad team, with a bad core. We are a worse team, with a rotten core. I want a complete change in our team's style of play, but that won't come for years. We're a team with no real identity, aside from being one that is easily pushed around and shy's away from physical play.

It's not

Whatever. If you enjoy watching a team that's easily pushed around, and a team that's mentally fragile then enjoy this rotten core while we have it.

 

[PM]

Better than just going through the motions and letting your goalie get ventilated and your team getting completely embarrassed.

I'm sure that would work better for a team that doesn't get a 5 minute 5-on-3 followed by a 7 minute 5-on-3 the following game for trying to stand up for once.

 

[me2]

Better than just going through the motions and letting your goalie get ventilated and your team getting completely embarrassed.

Maybe he shouldn't let in floaters and stinkers. Maybe he should ask to get pulled rather than ask to stay in if he is playing like ****.

 

[me2]

I think the OP just mentioned Hossa to illustrate his opinion that very few players are good after the age of 32 (and he used Hossa as one of his examples).

Rick Nash does play a physical style from what I understand. Not sure if he's a prototypical PWF, but I think he could qualify as a good example. Most would agree that he plays a physically demanding style, and he's yet to decline despite being 32.

That would explain why he has a sedin like hits total for the last couple of years, something like 55 in 150-160 games. He has toned back on the physical side. Also he could skate well to begin with, losing a step when you have a some to spare is survivable.

Clowe. Arguably the best comparable going around, big, physical, 60 points plus multiple times, fights.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Maybe he shouldn't let in floaters and stinkers. Maybe he should ask to get pulled rather than ask to stay in if he is playing like ****.

I don't want a goalie to ever ask to be pulled. But then again it sounds like our fanbase likes players who quit on a game so this doesn't surprise me.

 

[me2]

I don't want a goalie to ever ask to be pulled. But then again it sounds like our fanbase likes players who quit on a game so this doesn't surprise me.

Well he's quit on a few so he's a good fit.

 

[Grifter3511]

Nash has been deemed a PWF ever since he was drafted, he's not one now?

Weird.

Yeah, he kinda became a part time pwf after his first concussion and since his 2nd and 3rd concussion he rarely plays like one.

 

[Smokey McCanucks]

Lucic has been one of my favourite players since he was on the Giants, no hard feelings over the business with Boston, still one of my favourites. He's a one of a kind player, not a power forward like a Hossa, Jagr, Nash type of guy, more of a unique physical mis-match like Byfuglien or Chara.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

We were a bad team, with a bad core. We are a worse team, with a rotten core. I want a complete change in our team's style of play, but that won't come for years. We're a team with no real identity, aside from being one that is easily pushed around and shy's away from physical play.



Whatever. If you enjoy watching a team that's easily pushed around, and a team that's mentally fragile then enjoy this rotten core while we have it.

There is much delving to be done into this statement.

I am absolutely desperate to know what you mean by this, how you got to that conclusion, and perhaps most importantly, what you see as a reasonable alternative.

 

[Proto]

Ryane Clowe.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

And that was my challenge to Y2Kanucks. Show me examples of PWF's that sharply declined once they hit 30-32.

The only guys that really fit this description are Brendan Morrow and Todd Bertuzzi.

Owen Nolan went into decline at age 34 (the age where I would want Lucic's contract to expire with the Canucks if he signed here).

Mike Richards and Ryan Malone's off-ice habits likely played more of a role in their decline, as opposed to their style of play. Vincent Lecavlier suffered a major concussion.

Darcy Tucker was more a "grinder" than a top flight PWF and so listing Tucker is an inappropriate example.

Rick Nash would be considered a PWF by many, and he's style thriving at the age of 32.

My point is this - If Lucic has a solid year, I'd absolutely be comfortable in signing him to a 6 year deal.

well keith tkachuk fell off at 31, though that may have been because of the lockout and too much krispy creme.

rick tocchet: body and skills started to deteriorate in his late 20s.

kevin stevens: ^ ditto.

kevin dineen: scored 35 goals at 29, never hit 20 again after.

john leclair: 40 goals, 77 points, 3rd team all-star at 29. never scored more than 25 again.

mike foligno: peaked at 27, still good until 30, body and abilities fell off a cliff after.

cam neely: did not play a game after 30.

keith primeau: played 9 games after the age of 32.

eric lindros: barely NHL calibre between 29-33.

how many more do you want? wendel clark, tim kerr, dave andreychuk, adam graves, gary roberts, al secord, charlie simmer, clark gillies, rick vaive... all of them either had their bodies or their skills drop significantly in their late 20s or early 30s. that's just what happens when you play that kind of game, especially the chronic injuries part.

these guys are real power forwards, the kind who play in the trenches. even andreychuk, who was not a rough player, took a lot of abuse. in contrast, rick nash is just a big winger. gordie howe, brendan shanahan, and iginla, those guys are the one-in-a-generation outliers, not the rule.

 

[arsmaster*]

gordie howe, brendan shanahan, and iginla, those guys are the one-in-a-generation outliers, not the rule.

And their peaks weren't 30 goal 55 point complimentary players like Lucic either, they were premier scoring forwards with 50 goals on their resumes multiple times.