Prospect Info: Mikko Rantanen Part II

[Ivan13]

I've seen enough of Colborne over the years at center to believe that he is much, much better at wing (I think he is good enough at wing to take a regular shift on the 2nd line). I don't think Grigo has the skating to be a real effective center. He possesses a number of the other skills, but at his age, I don't think center is just going to click with him. I'd put Mitchell at the #3C spot before either of those two, and I don't think that is even a decent option. To me, Compher is the only legitimate option to take over that role and I don't think he is fully ready for it. After a half season in the AHL and some 4th line time... I could see it, but to open the season I wouldn't feel good about Compher, Mitchell, Colborne, or Grigo at the #3C spot.

It's not only that he's better on the wing, he's flat out putrid as centre. Agreed on other points as well, I hope JTC can carve out a niche as a good checking centre, we are sorely missing that.

 

[Foppa2118]

I've seen enough of Colborne over the years at center to believe that he is much, much better at wing (I think he is good enough at wing to take a regular shift on the 2nd line). I don't think Grigo has the skating to be a real effective center. He possesses a number of the other skills, but at his age, I don't think center is just going to click with him. I'd put Mitchell at the #3C spot before either of those two, and I don't think that is even a decent option. To me, Compher is the only legitimate option to take over that role and I don't think he is fully ready for it. After a half season in the AHL and some 4th line time... I could see it, but to open the season I wouldn't feel good about Compher, Mitchell, Colborne, or Grigo at the #3C spot.

I think they're both better on the wing also.

But team building wise, I think they could build a better 3rd line with one of them at center, than Mitchell, who can then improve the 4th line.

Compher being the 3rd line center should be more of an after thought IMO. They need to plan for someone else, and then if he earns his spot there out of camp, or later in the season, it's a bonus.

I agree though, I think he might need a half year of AHL seasoning, though I thought that was more likely under Roy. Not sure how Bednar will approach it.

 

[henchman21]

It's not only that he's better on the wing, he's flat out putrid as centre. Agreed on other points as well, I hope JTC can carve out a niche as a good checking centre, we are sorely missing that.

Putrid is probably futher than I'd go, but I wouldn't want him at center. Only if a massive string of injuries hit would I want him at center.

I think they're both better on the wing also.

But team building wise, I think they could build a better 3rd line with one of them at center, than Mitchell, who can then improve the 4th line.

Compher being the 3rd line center should be more of an after thought IMO. They need to plan for someone else, and then if he earns his spot there out of camp, or later in the season, it's a bonus.

I agree though, I think he might need a half year of AHL seasoning, though I thought that was more likely under Roy. Not sure how Bednar will approach it.

I simply don't agree. The Avs have 3 very good centers to man the top 3 lines. MacK-Duchene-Soda is an excellent 1-2-3 punch. The wing depth isn't great, but I'd say the Avs have 5 good enough wings to work in the top 9 (Landy, Rants, Grigo, Colborne, and Comeau). If they found another through PTO, Iggy taking an elephant's amount of HGH, or kid earning a spot... they are actually set decently well up front. Not great, but good enough considering the expectations. Why interrupt the 1-2-3 punch the Avs have to run Grigo/Colborne/Mitchell/etc at the #3 center spot. I can see it if injuries hit, but on the onset, I just don't get why you'd kill that advantage to start.

I really don't think Grigo or Colborne are better than Mitchell at center. Even from a team building perspective... the difference between those two at center vs wing is too great to worry about how much better Mitchell would be for the 4th line's 6-7 5v5 minutes. Hell, Grimaldi would be fine as the #4C if Mitchell was up.

Going forward, the organization should really push for Compher to take over the #3C spot. He plays a sound enough 2 two way game and has the tenacity to work on that sort of line. I don't think he is ready for that role and should be in the AHL to get his scoring confidence up to begin the season. IMO that is how they need to direct his development.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I've seen enough of Colborne over the years at center to believe that he is much, much better at wing (I think he is good enough at wing to take a regular shift on the 2nd line). I don't think Grigo has the skating to be a real effective center. He possesses a number of the other skills, but at his age, I don't think center is just going to click with him. I'd put Mitchell at the #3C spot before either of those two, and I don't think that is even a decent option. To me, Compher is the only legitimate option to take over that role and I don't think he is fully ready for it. After a half season in the AHL and some 4th line time... I could see it, but to open the season I wouldn't feel good about Compher, Mitchell, Colborne, or Grigo at the #3C spot.

There is definitely a problem of who plays as the #3 if Duchy moves to wing. Part of me wanted a #3 center brought in because of that.

I think if I had to chose someone at the start it would be Mitchell as well, unless Compher blew the doors off in camp.

The only way I see it working is if you create more of an offensive third line with one of the top two lines being setup for defensive matchups. Which does not exactly put our top scorers in the best position possible.

 

[Pokecheque]

I agree the Avs should roll them out as centers so long as they hit the ground running. If, once again, one of them should start out slow, Bednar will likely be forced to mix things up and put one of them on wing. I'm hoping that's not the case and our young players finally have it figured out. Much of a Dutchy defender as I have been at times, he has no excuses at this point. He's a veteran of six NHL seasons.

Whatever the case, I hope we've seen the end of Mitchell on anything other than the 4th line. So long as injuries don't force his hand, the coach should just keep him there, any bigger role and he's pretty much a disaster.

 

[henchman21]

The only way I see it working is if you create more of an offensive third line with one of the top two lines being setup for defensive matchups. Which does not exactly put our top scorers in the best position possible.

Whatever line Soda centers will be the defensive line... it could be numbered any number of different ways, but that will be the line that does the heavy lifting defensively. Likely with at least Comeau on the wing.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Whatever line Soda centers will be the defensive line... it could be numbered any number of different ways, but that will be the line that does the heavy lifting defensively. Likely with at least Comeau on the wing.

Yeah I figure that'll be the case.

Whenever I make my lineups, I usually try to keep Soderberg and Comeau together.

The only other thing I usually try to do is put Greg on the LW with MacK, because he is probably our best play-maker.

There seems to be a group that wants MacK & Landy together to play a crash bang bullish type of power game though.

I still like Mikko better with Duchy myself.

Grigorenko - MacKinnon - Landeskog
Colborne - Duchene - Rantanen
_______ - Soderberg - Comeau

Everyone is in their natural position, or a position they are strong at with that lineup.

I'll be really curious to see if the Mikko at center thing is done for, if it's not I could see them use him as that #3 center. Which is something others expected as well, but that was with Roy.

 

[Foppa2118]

Putrid is probably futher than I'd go, but I wouldn't want him at center. Only if a massive string of injuries hit would I want him at center.



I simply don't agree. The Avs have 3 very good centers to man the top 3 lines. MacK-Duchene-Soda is an excellent 1-2-3 punch. The wing depth isn't great, but I'd say the Avs have 5 good enough wings to work in the top 9 (Landy, Rants, Grigo, Colborne, and Comeau). If they found another through PTO, Iggy taking an elephant's amount of HGH, or kid earning a spot... they are actually set decently well up front. Not great, but good enough considering the expectations. Why interrupt the 1-2-3 punch the Avs have to run Grigo/Colborne/Mitchell/etc at the #3 center spot. I can see it if injuries hit, but on the onset, I just don't get why you'd kill that advantage to start.

I really don't think Grigo or Colborne are better than Mitchell at center. Even from a team building perspective... the difference between those two at center vs wing is too great to worry about how much better Mitchell would be for the 4th line's 6-7 5v5 minutes. Hell, Grimaldi would be fine as the #4C if Mitchell was up.

Going forward, the organization should really push for Compher to take over the #3C spot. He plays a sound enough 2 two way game and has the tenacity to work on that sort of line. I don't think he is ready for that role and should be in the AHL to get his scoring confidence up to begin the season. IMO that is how they need to direct his development.

I see lots of reasons to play Soda in the top 6, and shift Duchene to wing.

Reason #1 - No more watered down lines.

The Avs have tried to force a three center approach while watering down their lines for a long time, and it hasn't worked. They have had a hell of a time finding chemistry, especially with Duchene at center. It makes it easier for Iggy to be put on the 3rd or 4th line also, since the top 6 will be full.

Reason #2 - The best teams have a top 6 shutdown line.

They've tried using the 3rd line as the shutdown line, every year for like five or six seasons now, and pretty much every year they've realized halfway through, they need one of their top six lines playing this role. The lines that get the most minutes, play against the other top lines, and need to be the ones keeping the other team off the scoresheet in this day and age.

Reason #3 - Duchene is better.

Duchene played his best hockey of his career on the wing last year. It allowed him to focus on offense, instead of defense, which is becoming pretty clear at this stage of his career, he will never be a strong contributor at. It allowed him to simplify his approach and play a shooters role, where he excelled. It also kept him from over handling the puck. Something he's struggled with his whole career.

Reason #4 - Soda is better.

Soderberg getting 3rd line minutes contributes way less to the team, than Soderberg getting top 6 minutes. We saw two fairly different players last year when played in each role. More than most players, he gets better, and engages more, with more minutes.

Reason #5 - Soda with Landy.

Soda in the top 6, means he likely gets to stay with Landeskog. If both are on a line together, it's getting top 6 minutes. This has shown not to be just good chemistry on a line, but it allows the captain to play better hockey. They need him playing good hockey.

Reason #6 - A better shutdown line.

Whichever line Soda is on will be the shutdown line. A shutdown line with Landy on it is waaaay better than a shutdown line with Comeau and Grigo/Colborne, or whatever other combo they try. Not having a good dedicated shutdown line has really hurt this team early in seasons the last few years, because they've tried to force more offensive lines.

Reason $7 - Colborne > Mitchell

Colborne had 44 points last year, and is much more talented than Mitchell who had 21 points, and has never been more than average defensively. It's a pretty easy upgrade. The only reason potentially keeping it from being one is line chemistry. Something Mitchell hasn't really ever had a lot of anyway, expect on the 4th line with McLeod, where he should be.

Reason #8 - A better 4th line

Mitchell on the 4th line just makes for a better 4th line. Like mentioned previously, it's shown very good chemistry, and just adds to the overall depth of the team.

 

[Jarey Curry]

There is definitely a problem of who plays as the #3 if Duchy moves to wing. Part of me wanted a #3 center brought in because of that.

I think if I had to chose someone at the start it would be Mitchell as well, unless Compher blew the doors off in camp.

The only way I see it working is if you create more of an offensive third line with one of the top two lines being setup for defensive matchups. Which does not exactly put our top scorers in the best position possible.

Now that I think about it, this team has gotten rid of today's 1-2C of Blues and 1C of Sabres because they believed that we have two more superior centers in the long run in Duchesse and MacKracker. And I believe also that those both enjoy playing their natural forward position so lock them 1-2 punch and experiment suitable wingers for them.

Grigo MacKinnon Comeau
Colborne Duchene Iginla
Landeskog Soderberg Rantanen
Bourque Mitchell Compher

A very questionable formation but "our Crosby" might not need Radulov like star quality on his wing to make big things happen once he breaks through. And that 2nd looks even more suspicious because of Iginla but if swapped with Rantanen somewhere in time, it doesn't look too bad. Landy Soderberg duo could be played as much as our second line and bring the scandinavian thunder to the Pepsidome. At some point of this season Iginla and Compher are moved up and down their right wing rankings.

Beauch EJ
Zadorov Barrie
Wiercioch Tyutin

Beauch and Zad swap their seats soon. And either Wiercioch or Tyutin gets replaced by Bigras soon.

Varlamov
Pickard

A more consistent season by the best russian in the avs than the year before
Pickard solid season but not threatening steps in development like last two years

 

[tigervixxxen]

I dont think we have the talent to spread it out either. I agree we need a good 3C but I have a hard time not seeing Soda in the top 6. It's really going to hinge on how Bednar sees Duchene. He might want to see him at center first so it might go that way to start. I just hated how they tried that to start the last couple of years, it doesn't work and then they have to condense to get scoring going. Duchene will end up having to center a line dragging crap around and I like him better on wing. But I guess if the center position is going to be totally desolate doing that then we have some issues. I dont think Rantanen should play center either, hopefully that experiment is over. But I could see them go that way with say Grigo and Iggy on the wings to ease him in.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I dont think we have the talent to spread it out either. I agree we need a good 3C but I have a hard time not seeing Soda in the top 6. It's really going to hinge on how Bednar sees Duchene. He might want to see him at center first so it might go that way to start. I just hated how they tried that to start the last couple of years, it doesn't work and then they have to condense to get scoring going. Duchene will end up having to center a line dragging crap around and I like him better on wing. But I guess if the center position is going to be totally desolate doing that then we have some issues. I dont think Rantanen should play center either, hopefully that experiment is over. But I could see them go that way with say Grigo and Iggy on the wings to ease him in.

I wouldn't call Rantanen and Colborne crap, just inexperienced. I also doubt his line sees the toughest competition either.

Soda or MacK are much more likely to face other teams top competition either at home or on the road.

 

[henchman21]

It would be nice to condense... I just see no legitimate option for the #3C beyond Soda. That is the issue. Most good teams have to have 3 good lines, with Soda, Duchene, and MacK in the top 6... there isn't a way to make a good 3rd line. Colborne, Mitchell and Grigo are not good enough at center. Compher might be eventually, but I think it would be a mistake to start him there. If Compher could handle the #3C role, by all means condense. Until that point, I don't see any good option for a 3rd line.

A Landy-Soda-Comeau line is probably a 50/50 possibility... that would be a 2nd line on most teams in the league and likely used as a top 6 shutdown line. This would mean Duchene would be the "3rd" line center (though in name only).

Duchene isn't better as a winger... last season was the only season he has done well on the wing, and he didn't even play it all season. His best years were at center and that is where he has stated he wants to be.

Soda is getting top 6 minutes... so are Duchene and MacK. All 3 will get plenty of ice time. The 4th line won't get used as much, and there will be situations within games where the Avs condense.

At center Mitchell > Colborne... it isn't even that close. Colborne is a winger and plays his best hockey there. Colborne was nearly busted out of the NHL playing center. You can point to Mitchell producing less last year, their production was very similar the previous 2 seasons. Colborne 'broke out' playing RW.

I wouldn't call Rantanen and Colborne crap, just inexperienced. I also doubt his line sees the toughest competition either.

Soda or MacK are much more likely to face other teams top competition either at home or on the road.

Colborne has nearly 240 games in the NHL...

 

[tigervixxxen]

I wouldn't call Rantanen and Colborne crap, just inexperienced. I also doubt his line sees the toughest competition either.

Soda or MacK are much more likely to face other teams top competition either at home or on the road.

I wasn't either. I don't think that's who Duchene would end up centering. More like Iggy again.

Team Canada play Duchene at wing too. In the World Cup/Olympics I get they have elite centers but in the last WC he was at wing too and was one of the top scorers in the whole tourney.

Also the 3 line thing ends up not working out because they don't end up getting equal time. It's nice in theory but the third line will lose minutes. If whatever line soda is on has to take defensive minutes then either Duchene or MacK become the third line. That's just not the best use of our best talent.

 

[CobraAcesS]

It would be nice to condense... I just see no legitimate option for the #3C beyond Soda. That is the issue. Most good teams have to have 3 good lines, with Soda, Duchene, and MacK in the top 6... there isn't a way to make a good 3rd line. Colborne, Mitchell and Grigo are not good enough at center. Compher might be eventually, but I think it would be a mistake to start him there. If Compher could handle the #3C role, by all means condense. Until that point, I don't see any good option for a 3rd line.

A Landy-Soda-Comeau line is probably a 50/50 possibility... that would be a 2nd line on most teams in the league and likely used as a top 6 shutdown line. This would mean Duchene would be the "3rd" line center (though in name only).

Duchene isn't better as a winger... last season was the only season he has done well on the wing, and he didn't even play it all season. His best years were at center and that is where he has stated he wants to be.

Soda is getting top 6 minutes... so are Duchene and MacK. All 3 will get plenty of ice time. The 4th line won't get used as much, and there will be situations within games where the Avs condense.

At center Mitchell > Colborne... it isn't even that close. Colborne is a winger and plays his best hockey there. Colborne was nearly busted out of the NHL playing center. You can point to Mitchell producing less last year, their production was very similar the previous 2 seasons. Colborne 'broke out' playing RW.



Colborne has nearly 240 games in the NHL...

I didn't just mean experience as in games played. More experience playing on top lines, and being a guy you can count on to hit around 20 goals 40 or more points. He is still a question mark there. So I guess reliability and experience would be more accurate. This is something that is a huge part of our winger depth this season. There will be a lot of opportunities for success and failure.

If Mikko develops as a solid top six primary winger, then Colborne is a good complementary player on a line like that.

I also thought it was LW he 'broke out' on so my bad there.

I wasn't either. I don't think that's who Duchene would end up centering. More like Iggy again.

Team Canada play Duchene at wing too. In the World Cup/Olympics I get they have elite centers but in the last WC he was at wing too and was one of the top scorers in the whole tourney.

Also the 3 line thing ends up not working out because they don't end up getting equal time. It's nice in theory but the third line will lose minutes. If whatever line soda is on has to take defensive minutes then either Duchene or MacK become the third line. That's just not the best use of our best talent.

I think if Iginla stays that high in the lineup it will be because hes earned it. So I don't have a problem with that.

Part of me thinks Iginla may want to go out on a higher note, and Bednar will most likely use him more appropriately than Roy did. So there is that at least. We did see games where Iginla seemed to have a fire under him last season, they just were not the majority of his games.

 

[henchman21]

Also the 3 line thing ends up not working out because they don't end up getting equal time. It's nice in theory but the third line will lose minutes. If whatever line soda is on has to take defensive minutes then either Duchene or MacK become the third line. That's just not the best use of our best talent.

It won't be always the same, but there would be some condensing going on within games. Over the season it would even out. Just because Duchene started on a 3rd line wouldn't mean that he would stay there the whole game. Give him 2-3 shifts up a game and it makes up the minutes difference.

~13 minutes is top 6 EV ice time. The Avs had 7 players that averaged that last year (combining Boedker and Tangs). Duchene/Soda/MacK all averaged at least 18 minutes a game and for ~ half of the season all 3 were playing center.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

It would be nice to condense... I just see no legitimate option for the #3C beyond Soda. That is the issue. Most good teams have to have 3 good lines, with Soda, Duchene, and MacK in the top 6... there isn't a way to make a good 3rd line. Colborne, Mitchell and Grigo are not good enough at center. Compher might be eventually, but I think it would be a mistake to start him there. If Compher could handle the #3C role, by all means condense. Until that point, I don't see any good option for a 3rd line.

A Landy-Soda-Comeau line is probably a 50/50 possibility... that would be a 2nd line on most teams in the league and likely used as a top 6 shutdown line. This would mean Duchene would be the "3rd" line center (though in name only).

Duchene isn't better as a winger... last season was the only season he has done well on the wing, and he didn't even play it all season. His best years were at center and that is where he has stated he wants to be.

Soda is getting top 6 minutes... so are Duchene and MacK. All 3 will get plenty of ice time. The 4th line won't get used as much, and there will be situations within games where the Avs condense.

At center Mitchell > Colborne... it isn't even that close. Colborne is a winger and plays his best hockey there. Colborne was nearly busted out of the NHL playing center. You can point to Mitchell producing less last year, their production was very similar the previous 2 seasons. Colborne 'broke out' playing RW.



Colborne has nearly 240 games in the NHL...

Great post. I feel center is too important of a position to just throw out some decent at best 3C. I don't see what the big deal is anyways. If we run with MacK, Duchene and Yeti down the middle its not like whoever is 3C will get bottom 6 minutes.

Grigo - MacK - Colborne
Lando - Yeti - Comeau
Rantanen - Duchene - Iggy
Or
_____ - Duchene - Rantanen (Iggy on the 4th)

Duchene can still take shifts from Colborne, Grigo or Comeau. It's more about minutes than where your name is written on a depth chart.

 

[Foppa2118]

Duchene isn't better as a winger... last season was the only season he has done well on the wing, and he didn't even play it all season. His best years were at center and that is where he has stated he wants to be.

Duchene was never played full time as a winger before. It was only in spurts, and he never seemed to view it as a full time position, where he had to figure it out.

Last year he played pretty much the second half of the season on wing. There are a few other reasons for it, but it's no coincidence his second half was much better than his first.

The things that hurt him at center (defense, holding on to the puck too long, inconsistency) don't hurt him on the wing, because they don't come into play nearly as much.

Even the issue of inconsistency doesn't hurt the team as much on the wing. When a center is inconsistent it affects his wingers, the whole line, and the team much more. Combined with Mack's inconsistencies, this is one of the biggest factors for the struggles of this team. You just can't have your two top centers that inconsistent, someone needs to be steady.

Duchene likely will never be one of the top centers in the NHL. On the wing however, he has the potential to be one of the best. If they can get their center situation figured out, and I think they do with Soda/Jost, then having one of the best wingers in the league in Duchene is a huge benefit.

Soda is getting top 6 minutes... so are Duchene and MacK. All 3 will get plenty of ice time. The 4th line won't get used as much, and there will be situations within games where the Avs condense.

That's not really how it works though. The other team is playing their top line the most minutes. If you're matching up against that line, than that line is getting a lot of minutes. You can't do this, and give top minutes to a Duchene and a Mack line. There just isn't enough minutes to spread around.

They're out there to start and end each period. They're getting those double shifts, when the other team tries to sneak out their top guys.

That's why it's become so important to have one of your top two lines be your shutdown line. Think Toews, Kopitar, or Bergeron. Even Crosby has to play this role. This is the new model for success in the NHL.

At center Mitchell > Colborne... it isn't even that close. Colborne is a winger and plays his best hockey there. Colborne was nearly busted out of the NHL playing center. You can point to Mitchell producing less last year, their production was very similar the previous 2 seasons. Colborne 'broke out' playing RW.



Colborne has nearly 240 games in the NHL...

Honestly can't disagree more.

I'm not sure what you've seen from Mitchell in the past four years to make you think he's so clearly that much better.

What I've seen is decisively average defense, average faceoff ability, below average offense, one spurt of a good 5 games, and then prolonged slumps every year where he's pretty much doing nothing to help the team every shift, every game.

He's not a decisive upgrade on anyone who isn't a 4th liner. It really makes no difference if they play better on the wing than at center, because Mitchell doesn't play well at center in the top 9 either.

Mitchell could end up working better at center on the 3rd line for chemistry reasons, but he's honestly done nothing for you to think Colborne's "not even close" to being as good as him.

Realistically the 3rd line is gonna have issues either way. Might as well build a good top 6, and keep Iggy out of it. If they play Soda on the 3rd line, I can almost guarentee Iggy plays with Duchene or Mack, and brings down that line 5 on 5.

 

[henchman21]

Duchene was never played full time as a winger before. It was only in spurts, and he never seemed to view it as a full time position, where he had to figure it out.

Last year he played pretty much the second half of the season on wing. There are a few other reasons for it, but it's no coincidence his second half was much better than his first.

The things that hurt him at center (defense, holding on to the puck too long, inconsistency) don't hurt him on the wing, because they don't come into play nearly as much.

Even the issue of inconsistency doesn't hurt the team as much on the wing. When a center is inconsistent it affects his wingers, the whole line, and the team much more. Combined with Mack's inconsistencies, this is one of the biggest factors for the struggles of this team. You just can't have your two top centers that inconsistent, someone needs to be steady.

Duchene likely will never be one of the top centers in the NHL. On the wing however, he has the potential to be one of the best. If they can get their center situation figured out, and I think they do with Soda/Jost, then having one of the best wingers in the league in Duchene is a huge benefit.



That's not really how it works though. The other team is playing their top line the most minutes. If you're matching up against that line, than that line is getting a lot of minutes. You can't do this, and give top minutes to a Duchene and a Mack line. There just isn't enough minutes to spread around.

They're out there to start and end each period. They're getting those double shifts, when the other team tries to sneak out their top guys.

That's why it's become so important to have one of your top two lines be your shutdown line. Think Toews, Kopitar, or Bergeron. Even Crosby has to play this role. This is the new model for success in the NHL.



Honestly can't disagree more.

I'm not sure what you've seen from Mitchell in the past four years to make you think he's so clearly that much better.

What I've seen is decisively average defense, average faceoff ability, below average offense, one spurt of a good 5 games, and then prolonged slumps every year where he's pretty much doing nothing to help the team every shift, every game.

He's not a decisive upgrade on anyone who isn't a 4th liner. It really makes no difference if they play better on the wing than at center, because Mitchell doesn't play well at center in the top 9 either.

Mitchell could end up working better at center on the 3rd line for chemistry reasons, but he's honestly done nothing for you to think Colborne's "not even close" to being as good as him.

Realistically the 3rd line is gonna have issues either way. Might as well build a good top 6, and keep Iggy out of it. If they play Soda on the 3rd line, I can almost guarentee Iggy plays with Duchene or Mack, and brings down that line 5 on 5.

Duchene's 3rd season he played a lot of wing, and this past year it was the middle part of the season where Duchene played wing. The beginning and the end he played center. I get the idea of Duchene at wing. He looked good there last year (not as good as his best center seasons, but better at wing than center last year). Problem is Duchene hasn't really displayed a willingness to be there long term. Even when he was doing well at wing... it was I still think I'm a center and will be there again. Duchene is right in that regard, and part of that is his attitude towards it. He really didn't like it in his 3rd season, so maybe he matures out of it. Regardless though, I don't think Duchene will stick around the Avs after his contract if he can't play center. 20+ teams would pencil him in at center.

That is kinda how it works... Half the season all 3 Duchene, Soda, and MacK all played center. They all ended up with top 6 minutes. Yeah there will be night where one might only get 16 while the others get 19-20, but there will also be nights where the one that gets 16 will be at 20 for a game while the others are at 17. All 3 will average around the same ice time next year (within a minute), condensed or not.

I've been preaching the big 2 way center for years on here... I know why those teams are successful. Right now the Avs don't have piece, and they are going to have to hope that MacK's game rounds into that, or that Jost can overcome his size. The Avs are not competing for the cup this season. They have to make due with what they have and try to develop MacK.

It isn't what I have seen out of Mitchell... it is what I have seen out of Colborne. I get Colborne put up some points last year, and I think in the right role he is a much better player. Colborne just isn't a better center... I'd actually say that Colborne shouldn't ever play center again, on any line. FTR I don't think that Mitchell should touch the 3rd line.

 

[Foppa2118]

Duchene's 3rd season he played a lot of wing, and this past year it was the middle part of the season where Duchene played wing. The beginning and the end he played center. I get the idea of Duchene at wing. He looked good there last year (not as good as his best center seasons, but better at wing than center last year). Problem is Duchene hasn't really displayed a willingness to be there long term. Even when he was doing well at wing... it was I still think I'm a center and will be there again. Duchene is right in that regard, and part of that is his attitude towards it. He really didn't like it in his 3rd season, so maybe he matures out of it. Regardless though, I don't think Duchene will stick around the Avs after his contract if he can't play center. 20+ teams would pencil him in at center.

I think you're misrepresenting Duchene's time on the wing before last season. It was nothing like last season, where he got put on wing, and stayed there for a sizeable chunk of games. Pretty close to half a season, until the end where Roy tried him back at center. From what I can tell he moved to wing Nov 3rd, and then back to C Feb 17th.

Before that it was just in spurts, and he was never motivated to try to make it work like he was last year, where Roy made it very clear that's where he was gonna stay for the time being.

I like Dutchy a lot, but to be honest, at this point he hasn't done enough for the Avs for them to keep catering to him. They need to make decisions on what's best for the team, not best for Duchene. If they need to trade him before he becomes a UFA because he wants to play center that badly, then so be it.

That is kinda how it works... Half the season all 3 Duchene, Soda, and MacK all played center. They all ended up with top 6 minutes. Yeah there will be night where one might only get 16 while the others get 19-20, but there will also be nights where the one that gets 16 will be at 20 for a game while the others are at 17. All 3 will average around the same ice time next year (within a minute), condensed or not.

You're using skewed numbers. Soda played a quarter of the season on the third line, and the special team numbers throw off the total TOI numbers you're using. Plus Duchene spent a good chunk of the season on the top line as RW, throwing the numbers off more.

5 on 5 is what we're talking about in terms of the matchup line going out on the ice all the time, and that tells a different story.

Duchene - 15:35
Mackinnon - 15:22
Soderberg - 13:45
Mitchell - 12:37

http://www.foxsports.com/nhl/stats?...sort=5&time=0&pos=1&team=0&qual=1&sortOrder=0

Now look at a more telling part of the season. This is when they were really going in January. All relatively close games with Duchene on RW, Soda #2C, and Mitchell #3C. When they had a four game win streak, but I'll ommit the one OT game, since those minutes will be skewed.

1/18 vs Jets - 2-1 win

Mack - 16:01
Soda - 14:11
Mitchell - 11:37

1/20 vs Sabres - 2-1 win

Mack - 19:19
Soda - 16:49
Mitchell - 10:45

1/23 vs Stars - 3-1 win

Mack - 16:31
Soda - 14:17
Mitchell - 12:49

These are Soda's 5 on 5 minutes in October as #3C.

15:08
11:47
13:58
14:04
11:41
12:39
12:48
13:09
09:15
13:12

I've been preaching the big 2 way center for years on here... I know why those teams are successful. Right now the Avs don't have piece, and they are going to have to hope that MacK's game rounds into that, or that Jost can overcome his size. The Avs are not competing for the cup this season. They have to make due with what they have and try to develop MacK.

It isn't what I have seen out of Mitchell... it is what I have seen out of Colborne. I get Colborne put up some points last year, and I think in the right role he is a much better player. Colborne just isn't a better center... I'd actually say that Colborne shouldn't ever play center again, on any line. FTR I don't think that Mitchell should touch the 3rd line.

Fair point, but I don't think their level of compete this year has much impact on how they should play, or how they should structure the lines. They still need to aim for the playoffs and get this group some experience.

I could be wrong, but I don't think Mack will be that shutdown guy in the future. I think their best bet is Jost being an average sized, but stocky and smart two way center, with a lot of compete. The way Bergeron or Pavelski are.

They might as well start building towards that model now, and then expect Soda to be claimed in the draft, and Jost replace his spot in the lineup.

I think we agree on Mitchell's level of play. The way I view Mitchell is most of the reason why I'm ok with Colborne playing there. Not that I want Colborne playing there.

Even though Colborne is a better winger than center, I can't see him being that much worse at center, if at all than Mitchell. That's the defining factor for me.

It's also like I said, the 3rd line is gonna have issues all year. Except for when Jarome decides to get hot for 5-10 games. It's very much a stop gap kind of tweener 3rd line, the way they went with in the mid-late 2000's. With Soda there it will be better, but it will still be weird, and possibly have chemistry issues.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure last season was the only time Duchene played RW. Before that he was used on LW where I think he is kind of lost as he always end up on the right side which is also not good for the team as it leaves the left side opened. I also do think he is better at RW than C. I understand he might not like it as much but if it comes down to staying on the Avs and play wing or being traded, I think he would pick wing as he wants to be an Avs for the duration of his career. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Tweaky]

Landy-Soda-Comeau as the shutdown line: with 15min 5v5
Colborne-Duchene-Rantanen as a scoring line: 15min 5v5
Grigo-MacK-Iggy as the other scoring line: 15 min 5v5
McLeod, Mitchell, Martinsen get 3 minutes a game

Powerplay adds 6 min/game. Condense the top 6, dropping Colborne, Grigo and Comeau. That gets each of the others 3min/game.

Penalty kill also adds 6min/game, and rotate 2 forward pairs...Landy/Soda as first pair, then Comeau/McLeod. And have a 3rd pair in case of long kills, say Grig/MacK?. Pretty much anyone but Iggy for that. Figure 3/2/1

Landy and Soda get 21 min/gm, Comeau 17min
Colborne 15, Duchene 18, Rants 18
Grigo 16, MacK 19, Iggy 18
McLeod 5, Mitchell 3, Marty 3.

Double shift Duchene into Iggy's spot to boost his minutes, and give the old man a rest. One shift a period brings him up to 20min for the game. As Mack and Grig get better on the PK, they can take a shift or 2 from Comeau/McLeod, putting them at 17 and 20 respectively.

Splitting the minutes can be done with the 3 centers, just takes a bit of juggling. Mainly just takes only playing the 4th line 2 shifts a period.

 

[tigervixxxen]

It never comes out even, it comes up every time we have this discussion and then look in the boxscore every night and it doesn't happen. The 4th line isn't getting played that little either.

 

[Foppa2118]

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure last season was the only time Duchene played RW. Before that he was used on LW where I think he is kind of lost as he always end up on the right side which is also not good for the team as it leaves the left side opened. I also do think he is better at RW than C. I understand he might not like it as much but if it comes down to staying on the Avs and play wing or being traded, I think he would pick wing as he wants to be an Avs for the duration of his career. Just my opinion of course.

Good point, I think so too. Aside from a random shift here or there during a season. He's said that he much prefers RW to LW also.

I've alluded to that last part before too in the context of Duchene leaving over the center ice issue. I think it's more 50-50 than a slam dunk he leaves, if converted to wing full time here. If they start winning in the playoffs and looking ready to take that next step, and are having fun seasons for a change, it's gonna be tough for him to leave his boyhood team. Not after all the miserable seasons he's been through. He might want to see it through.

There's no guarantee he won't get shifted back to wing in a new organization in a couple years anyway. Lots of things can change. Coaching, management. Teams shift centers to wing far more than they used to. He'll have to weight this as well.

 

[22FUTON9]

I honestly don't agree with the Duchene played his best hockey on the wing statement at all. Might be just me but I take his 13-14 year over his 15-16 year pretty easily. Might even take his lockout year and his sophomore year as well.
It's nice his goal numbers went up but really doesn't mean much when his assist numbers go down like that

 

[Foppa2118]

I honestly don't agree with the Duchene played his best hockey on the wing statement at all. Might be just me but I take his 13-14 year over his 15-16 year pretty easily. Might even take his lockout year and his sophomore year as well.
It's nice his goal numbers went up but really doesn't mean much when his assist numbers go down like that

Fair enough. I don't even look at it so much production wise with his 30 goals, but the way he played. The way he controlled the play, the scoring chances he created, the confidence he had in himself, the danger level his line had because of him. Just in terms of the way he played, in my mind it's clear he was better than in 13-14.

I also think his assist totals were affected by MacKinnon's slump, and inability to hit the net, or bury his chances. There were quite a few plays that he set Nate up for, that Nate went back to the bench frustrated over not burying. The PP struggling also affected his assist totals.