Message sent to Season Ticket Holders from Kevin Lowe

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rec28

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Wow, you terribly underestimate what we could've gotten in return for both of those skaters...


Excellent - do tell! I've been hoping a legitimate insider privy to all the deals on the table would finally post here! Oh wait, you're just talking about magic-fairy-world in your head where if you can dream it it must be true, aren't you? You almost had me there...

:shakehead
 

The Rage

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Wow, I get pretty sick of reading all the whiners post their revisionist, hindsight-filled, fact bending ideas. Rage, your arguments are simplistic to say the least. Lets take a look at what you guys are arguing.

Simplistic? Yeah, it is pretty simple. The team didn't do what it takes to win; they weren't willing to spend the money. As a fan, that makes me angry.


To begin with, Lowe had a long drawn out affair once already with the Comrie fiasco. Comrie was demanding more money as a RFA, and Lowe chose to play hardball with him seeing as how Comrie had held the team ransom on his first contract. Comrie pouted and so it became clear he would not play for the team again. Lowe showed more than enough patience and guts in letting Comrie rot for as long as need be in order for him to get the best deal possible. After months of waiting however, it was pretty clear that Comrie's value wasn't increasing the longer he sat out. In fact, it probably went down. And that's why, after months of trying to get the best deal possible, the best other teams were offering were draft picks and prospects. Clearly, we did not get full value on Comrie. A 1st, 3rd and Woywitka were not an equal return for a young player who had already scored 30 goals, but it was the best deal available. No one was offering a similarly talented youngster in return. Add to this that Lowe had a lot of pressure on him to deal Comrie and get a return for him.

Pronger is so far above Comrie that the situations aren't even comparable.

Fast forward 3 years later, and Pronger, the guy Lowe was planning on building a team around that would challenge for the cup starts saying that he might not be happy in Edmonton. Lowe hopes that the cup run will change his mind and they agree to discuss it in the offseason. Days after losing to Carolina, Lowe and Pronger briefly bring up the situation, and again Pronger agrees to discuss the matter with Lowe later. Pronger then leaves with his family on holiday and leaks to the media that he wishes to leave Edmonton. This comes as a shock to Lowe, as during their last discussion Pronger had not revealed he had come to such an absolute decision. On this same day, Florida trades Luongo to Vancouver for Bertuzzi. Now, where some you st*pid f***s get off thinking that somewhere in there, Lowe should have traded for Luongo I have no idea. Was he supposed to have traded Pronger before even having discussed what his decision was going to be?

It seems as if Pronger had made his mind up and Lowe should have known. Regardless, Luonogo was one option. Somehow, Luongo and every other available player has some extrenuating circumstances that prevented us from getting him. So what happens? Lowest payroll in our division, and big surprise, worst results.

Was Lowe somehow supposed to have known that Pronger was going to be an ass and leak his decision to the media, thereby lowering his trade value? I suppose this is where PunjabiOil and his mystical eastern powers of knowing the future would have come in handy.

I suppose had Luongo not been traded that same day, and Lowe had had some time to work with, trading for him could have been a possibility. But now he was left with having to move a guy who made it publicly known he wasn't going to return. Already at a disadvantage because of Pronger's move, he decided that he didn't want a Comrie situation all over again. I don't know why some of you think that Pronger would have played next season. I don't think he would have shown up in Edmonton. True, he had a contract, but that didn't stop Yashin from doing the same thing a few years prior. There was also the possibility of his hold-out lowering his value even more, such as in the Comrie case.

Lowered his value? From Lupul and Smid to what? A doormat? Atleast a doormat wouldn't have Lupul's horrendous contract.

Even if he did show up, it would have been a big distraction to the team and it could have affected Pronger's performance, also leading to lower value.

Lowe also felt it would be best to trade him sooner than later, as those teams that were looking for a top defenceman would soon be signing UFAs, and that pool of interested teams would shrink. Unfortunately, (and this is the part Rage seems unable to comprehend) no one was offering a superstar in trade for Pronger. Hell, no one was even offering a star.

You say PunjabiOil has mystcal powers? You seem to know all the details of the Lowe/Pronger situation straight down to the meeting times and the other GM's proposals. The fact is this: either Lowe made a bad move, or every other GM in the league made a terrible decision in not offering more. What is the most likely scenario? You say no one offered a star. Why wouldn't they offer a star to get an underpaid superstar?

It was widely reported that Florida was not willing to part with Horton and Bouwmeester.

Is that information getting through Rage? Kaberle and Steen. There were no teams offering Hossa or any of the other stars you mentioned. And nobody really cares what you "think" may have been offered, since its all speculation and clearly not true. If any teams had offered a player of Hossa-like quality, rest assured Lowe would have been interested. And really, you can't blame teams for this. Defencemen like Chara and Jovanovski were going to be available as UFAs shortly. And while they may have ended up costing more money-wise, you didn't need to give up any players to acquire them.

Jovo and Chara were only available to teams with enough cap room. Pronger was available to anybody who has adequate assets (assets with salaries high priced enough to offset the cost of getting Pronger).

Thus Lowe was asking teams for a good young forward and defenceman. Anaheim undoubtedly offered the best package as Lowe finalized they trade with them, despite the fact that they were in the same conference. Lowe undoubtedly would have preferred moving him to the east. Finally, in response to dumb remarks like Lowe traded Pronger for "scrubs" because he didn't want to spend money... then why would he offer Chara $7 million? Obviously, Chara chose to sign with Boston in the end, but if you don't want to spend, then why even offer that money? What if Chara had agreed? Was Lowe going to say "oops, I didn't mean it"? I guess you can cue the idiot conspiracy theorists now. And yes, Lowe chose to not sign McKee, Kubina or whoever else was available for the money that they eventually did for the same reason he chose not to offer Smyth more. They simply aren't worth that much. If the team is going to pay that much for someone, then its going to be someone who will make a large impact on the team. As for Mark Eaton... is it even necessary to comment on that?

So there was no better trade for an underpaid superstar (again, there is nothing more valuable in the cap world), and no other single free agent that could be signed? All the circumstances colluded againt Lowe, just as they have in the other years this team has missed the palyoffs under his watch? Please. Forget Luongo and Hossa. What about Getzlaf? What about signing Eaton? A guy who plays decently tough minutes and gets decent results? A guy you can sign to a short deal for relatively cheap? A guy who would have prevented us from having a rookie parade on defence. Yeah, there were options, some grandiose and on the fringe of possibility, and others far more modest and practical. None of these options were excercised. The management failed. We're competing for a lottery pick. This is not what I've waited 15 years for. I am angry and I make no apologies for it. I have been patient long enough, reasonable long enough. The time for that is over.
 

rec28

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Simplistic? Yeah, it is pretty simple. The team didn't do what it takes to win; they weren't willing to spend the money. As a fan, that makes me angry.


FFS, Rage - quit it with this. If offering Chara 7M - more than what Pronger made, btw - doesn't show a willingness to spend money, what does?

Quit twisting yourself up over deals that we have no reason to believe were ever on the table. Do you honestly believe that given Lowe's demands - which are documented as having been too rich for Florida and Toronto - if Hossa, Havlat, Luongo, etc were offered he would have turned them down in favor of the Anaheim deal? After the Oilers make the Cup finals on the strength of some extremely shrewd trades near the deadline, do you really believe Lowe just turned stupid? This is getting ridiculous...
 

rec28

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Good post! You're right, some of these guys have no authority to claim that no stars were offered for Pronger. Oh wait, sorry, I thought you were quoting someone else. :sarcasm:

:help:

The difference is that I'm not making **** up based on what, in my esteemed and professional opinion "should have been", and desperately clinging to it as fact. I only comment on what we know. You, on the other hand...

Please tell me that when you become a practicing physician, you won't base your diagnoses and treatment plans on the same kind of "logic"...

"Hmmm - the differential screams Hepatitis, but it really should be a nasty Staph infection - broad spectrum antibiotics it is!"

:shakehead
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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Yeah, but back then I didn't really have a clue about outscoring, PPP/hr, tough minutes, young players being able to contribute to winning games, etc. I also underestimated the value of Pronger.

Plus, I was a big personal fan of Lupul.

My personal feelings (as a fan) are irrelevant at the end of the day. I don't think getting Lupul was a mistake - he still is young and may get better.....but his contract was a mistake, especially when you see Horton getting only 1.1M.

Lowe made a choice to rebuild with the trade....so the right thing would have been to do it properly.

Busted. :shakehead
 

hockeyaddict101

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I am in Florida, so I haven't read most of this and have not received the message to Season Ticket Holders yet.

My take is this.

I understand Kevin Lowe's position of Ryan Smyth but he MUST make a splash in the off-season.

It will not be enough to go after high end UFA's and fail, I expect him through trade or UFA signings to make this team better.

If Ryan Smyth was not that elite player then he must find that player that is and he must be playing for this organization before the next season starts (or a few games in).

IF that does not happen then I will turn in my tickets. IMO since the EIG knows the response and the backlash, my tickets will be in my possession for a few more years.
 

The Rage

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FFS, Rage - quit it with this. If offering Chara 7M - more than what Pronger made, btw - doesn't show a willingness to spend money, what does?

It's not what you spend on one player; it's what you spend in total. We could have two 10 million guys, but if our payroll is 35 million, we're going to suck. In any case, I hope KLowe didn't offer that much for Chara; it makes me shudder to think what he might offer other not-so-elite UFA defensemen. Unlike what many think, I don't what to spend money just for the hell of it. I want a competitive payroll, but I want smart decisions as well.

Quit twisting yourself up over deals that we have no reason to believe were ever on the table. Do you honestly believe that given Lowe's demands - which are documented as having been too rich for Florida and Toronto - if Hossa, Havlat, Luongo, etc were offered he would have turned them down in favor of the Anaheim deal? After the Oilers make the Cup finals on the strength of some extremely shrewd trades near the deadline, do you really believe Lowe just turned stupid? This is getting ridiculous...

There are three possibilities:

1) Every other GM is an idiot for not offering more for Pronger
2) Pronger actually sucks
3) Lowe messed up

I know which one is most likely, even if I have only an inkling about what deals were on the table (just like everyone else here).
 
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The Rage

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You quite clearly stated that the willingness to spend money wasn't there. The willingness was clearly there.

Our payroll was ridiculously low to start this season. Where was the willingness to spend even a median payroll? It was all dependant on Chara? Once he was gone, nothing else was possible? I'm looking forward to who we just miss out on this coming offseason.
 
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The Rage

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:help:

The difference is that I'm not making **** up based on what, in my esteemed and professional opinion "should have been", and desperately clinging to it as fact. I only comment on what we know. You, on the other hand...

What we know? We know the Oilers were not good enough this year. The lowest payroll in the division, and the worst results. Somewhere, not enough was done. The Pronger trade, afterwards--unless there is some massive conspiracy against Lowe, I have no idea how our team got so bad so fast if incompetence is not the reason.


Please tell me that when you become a practicing physician, you won't base your diagnoses and treatment plans on the same kind of "logic"...

"Hmmm - the differential screams Hepatitis, but it really should be a nasty Staph infection - broad spectrum antibiotics it is!"

:shakehead

Yeah, I do that all the time. Just to **** with people.
 

hemmingway

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Aug 6, 2006
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Our payroll was ridiculously low to start this season. Where was the willingness to spend even a median payroll? It was all dependant on Chara? Once he was gone, nothing else was possible? I'm loooking forward to who we just miss out on this coming offseason.

I don't think that the payroll is the problem.

It seems no matter how much is offered - players don't want the bad weather, additional travel, and constant whining that goes with playing in Edmonton.

Given the content within this thread - I can't say I blame them.
 

The Rage

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I don't think that the payroll is the problem.

It seems no matter how much is offered - players don't want the bad weather, additional travel, and constant whining that goes with playing in Edmonton.

Given the content within this thread - I can't say I blame them.

One player didn't seem to care. We traded him, because we want to get someone elite this off-season.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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Wow, I get pretty sick of reading all the whiners post their revisionist, hindsight-filled, fact bending ideas. Rage, your arguments are simplistic to say the least. Lets take a look at what you guys are arguing.

To begin with, Lowe had a long drawn out affair once already with the Comrie fiasco. Comrie was demanding more money as a RFA, and Lowe chose to play hardball with him seeing as how Comrie had held the team ransom on his first contract. Comrie pouted and so it became clear he would not play for the team again. Lowe showed more than enough patience and guts in letting Comrie rot for as long as need be in order for him to get the best deal possible. After months of waiting however, it was pretty clear that Comrie's value wasn't increasing the longer he sat out. In fact, it probably went down. And that's why, after months of trying to get the best deal possible, the best other teams were offering were draft picks and prospects. Clearly, we did not get full value on Comrie. A 1st, 3rd and Woywitka were not an equal return for a young player who had already scored 30 goals, but it was the best deal available. No one was offering a similarly talented youngster in return. Add to this that Lowe had a lot of pressure on him to deal Comrie and get a return for him.

Fast forward 3 years later, and Pronger, the guy Lowe was planning on building a team around that would challenge for the cup starts saying that he might not be happy in Edmonton. Lowe hopes that the cup run will change his mind and they agree to discuss it in the offseason. Days after losing to Carolina, Lowe and Pronger briefly bring up the situation, and again Pronger agrees to discuss the matter with Lowe later. Pronger then leaves with his family on holiday and leaks to the media that he wishes to leave Edmonton. This comes as a shock to Lowe, as during their last discussion Pronger had not revealed he had come to such an absolute decision. On this same day, Florida trades Luongo to Vancouver for Bertuzzi. Now, where some you st*pid f***s get off thinking that somewhere in there, Lowe should have traded for Luongo I have no idea. Was he supposed to have traded Pronger before even having discussed what his decision was going to be? Was Lowe somehow supposed to have known that Pronger was going to be an ass and leak his decision to the media, thereby lowering his trade value? I suppose this is where PunjabiOil and his mystical eastern powers of knowing the future would have come in handy.

I suppose had Luongo not been traded that same day, and Lowe had had some time to work with, trading for him could have been a possibility. But now he was left with having to move a guy who made it publicly known he wasn't going to return. Already at a disadvantage because of Pronger's move, he decided that he didn't want a Comrie situation all over again. I don't know why some of you think that Pronger would have played next season. I don't think he would have shown up in Edmonton. True, he had a contract, but that didn't stop Yashin from doing the same thing a few years prior. There was also the possibility of his hold-out lowering his value even more, such as in the Comrie case. Even if he did show up, it would have been a big distraction to the team and it could have affected Pronger's performance, also leading to lower value.

Lowe also felt it would be best to trade him sooner than later, as those teams that were looking for a top defenceman would soon be signing UFAs, and that pool of interested teams would shrink. Unfortunately, (and this is the part Rage seems unable to comprehend) no one was offering a superstar in trade for Pronger. Hell, no one was even offering a star. It was widely reported that Florida was not willing to part with Horton and Bouwmeester. Likewise, Toronto felt Steen and Kaberle were too steep a price. Is that information getting through Rage? Kaberle and Steen. There were no teams offering Hossa or any of the other stars you mentioned. And nobody really cares what you "think" may have been offered, since its all speculation and clearly not true. If any teams had offered a player of Hossa-like quality, rest assured Lowe would have been interested. And really, you can't blame teams for this. Defencemen like Chara and Jovanovski were going to be available as UFAs shortly. And while they may have ended up costing more money-wise, you didn't need to give up any players to acquire them.

Thus Lowe was asking teams for a good young forward and defenceman. Anaheim undoubtedly offered the best package as Lowe finalized they trade with them, despite the fact that they were in the same conference. Lowe undoubtedly would have preferred moving him to the east. Finally, in response to dumb remarks like Lowe traded Pronger for "scrubs" because he didn't want to spend money... then why would he offer Chara $7 million? Obviously, Chara chose to sign with Boston in the end, but if you don't want to spend, then why even offer that money? What if Chara had agreed? Was Lowe going to say "oops, I didn't mean it"? I guess you can cue the idiot conspiracy theorists now. And yes, Lowe chose to not sign McKee, Kubina or whoever else was available for the money that they eventually did for the same reason he chose not to offer Smyth more. They simply aren't worth that much. If the team is going to pay that much for someone, then its going to be someone who will make a large impact on the team. As for Mark Eaton... is it even necessary to comment on that?

Thank you for this post. There's been a lot of revisionist history here, conspiracy theories, and accusations.

The Cup run was a great time to be an Oiler fan. But as I feared this cinderella run created alot of false expectation around this team. This was an eight place seed that ran a hot streak to make the playoffs and ride it to a Cup Final.

The team came back to reality with a thud less that a week later. Pronger pulls the pin. That's followed by others bailing for free agents greener pastures. Suddenly the sky is falling and media is all over this mass exodus.

K-Lowe has to do contracts on several players who proved themselves in the playoffs. That was a totally chaotic time of incredible highs and deep lows.

Lowe opted to deal quickly with the Pronger situation. He got two top young players and top picks. Most people at the time felt this was a reasonable return and means to build around a solid youthful core. Through benefit of hindsight, we can look back and see the season never get on track. Personally, I was hoping for another 7 or 8 playoff seed but didn't believe we could catch lighning in a bottle again.

Lowe stumbled this year as this team didn't respond and he didn't/couldn't address some clear flaws. He's got a promising summer ahead with bountiful draft picks, depth in the prospect pipeline, and some dough to throw around. If he fails to invest these assets in improving this team's talent base, then I will join in calling for his head.

But all in all, I'm looking for this team to build its talent base to align with the Hemsky, Stoll, MAP grouping. That won't net immediate Cup contender but a good base to build a sustained competitive team in two years or so.
 

PunjabiOil*

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Did anyone expect the Oilers to be the 7th worth team in the league in terms of points this year?

This year has been a failure - and Kevin Lowe would be the first to admit that he's made a few mistakes.

So enough of the the ''rah rah rah go Oilers go mentality'' that some of you guys are showing. If you are unwilling to listen to criticism, I suggest you go check out the U of A Golden Bears hockey team this weekend playing in their 1001st Canada West Final. Why? They never give their fans anything to criticize about.

Deals will get analyzed and critiqued. For some deals, there are winners and losers. If there weren't, the number of trades would go down significantly. It's all about the best possible deal in terms of the GM's opinion. Some are great (CFP, Jason Smith) while others are not (Thornton, Jagr to NYR, etc.). If you make more good moves than bad moves, you're setting up yourself to be a contender. If you make good moves followed up with a series of bad moves, you'll end up in a state they call medicority. That's what we're at.

Of course I'm hoping we pull a San Jose who finished 2nd worst in the Western Conference in 2002-2003 (73 pts) only to win the division next year and have the 2nd best record in the West at 104 points.
 

rec28

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Our payroll was ridiculously low to start this season. Where was the willingness to spend even a median payroll? It was all dependant on Chara? Once he was gone, nothing else was possible? I'm loooking forward to who we just miss out on this coming offseason.

How can you write this while at the same time trying to convince us that a) you don't want them to spend money just for the sake of spending money, and b) you want the team to make smart decisions? You very clearly want the team to be at or above the median league payroll, period.

Lowe lost out on the UFA party during the summer and went to plan B: gamble that he could land a good Dman half-way through the season. He lost the gamble - **** happens.


/Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.
 

hemmingway

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One player didn't seem to care. We traded him, because we want to get someone elite this off-season.

OK - lets overpay players a great deal to stay here.

Oh, wait, Horcoff, Pisani, Moreau, then offering Smyth 27 over 5.

And everytime Lowe overpays - people here whine about how much they make.

Elite players don't want to play here. Call me shocked.
 

rec28

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What we know? We know the Oilers were not good enough this year. The lowest payroll in the division, and the worst results. Somewhere, not enough was done.

Nice deflection. Where in all this do you explain how your "should be's" and "just have to have been's" have any bearing on reality with respect to what was and was not on the table? (yes, I am aware of the grammar mistake re: possessive v. plural)

The Pronger trade, afterwards--unless there is some massive conspiracy against Lowe, I have no idea how our team got so bad so fast if incompetence is not the reason.

A whole lot of players underperformed at the worst possible times this season. Even with the D we had, this team shouldn't be THIS bad.

Yeah, I do that all the time. Just to **** with people.

Considering the tenacity with which you cling to your alternate reality, I am inclined to believe you.
 

PunjabiOil*

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Elite players don't want to play here. Call me shocked.

Nothing but an excuse.

It also goes under the category of inferiority complex. Have the Flames or Canucks signed any big name UFA's? Not at all. No better than the Oilers.....

Sykora's response was ''Why Wouldn't I?" as to why wouldn't he want to play here.

The days of signing UFA's in Edmonton are relatively new. Pre-CBA - not a chance of landing anyone. It's far too early to make a conclusion like that.

What elite UFA's did Lowe go after last year? Further, how do you think elite UFA's get landed? If you look at all of the top crop of UFA's signed last summer, they got overpayed. Until the Oilers do the same (this year has a weak class), we'll never land a top end UFA.
 

PunjabiOil*

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A whole lot of players underperformed at the worst possible times this season. Even with the D we had, this team shouldn't be THIS bad.

What else do you expect when your top two defenceman in the breakout pass category are not replaced?
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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Busted for what?

Will you flop again on the Pronger deal if Lupul comes back with a big year, Smid continues developing as a 21 yr old d-man, and the Anaheim pick(s) are parlayed into a top player?

We knew FCP was going to have a big year in Duckville. The Oil side of the equation was build for impact in two - three years. The early return has hurt mostly because Lupul regressed. It remains to be seen if this is part of the maturation process of a young player in a so-called hockey heartland or a 3 dressed up as a 9 dud. We'll see but 28 goals as a NHL sophomore was a decent bet to make.

Lupul's got to put his work boots on. We'll see what happens in year two. Heck, maybe he's flipped in a deal.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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Nothing but an excuse.

It also goes under the category of inferiority complex. Have the Flames or Canucks signed any big name UFA's? Not at all. No better than the Oilers.....

Sykora's response was ''Why Wouldn't I?" as to why wouldn't he want to play here.

The days of signing UFA's in Edmonton are relatively new. Pre-CBA - not a chance of landing anyone. It's far too early to make a conclusion like that.

What elite UFA's did Lowe go after last year? Further, how do you think elite UFA's get landed? If you look at all of the top crop of UFA's signed last summer, they got overpayed. Until the Oilers do the same (this year has a weak class), we'll never land a top end UFA.

Unfortunately, the Flamers are bit around a solid core of Iginla, Kipper, Phaneuf, and Regehr. They needed only to add complementary free agents to build upon this strength (balanced at forward, d, and goal). Canuckles too had a great base with Naslund, Sedins, and parlayed a broken top gun in Bertuzzi for the game's top netminder. I like their low risk deadline deals to strengthen their team at relatively low cost.

I just don't see the Oil core being anywhere near that good. Smyth was the only guy to have a big season while pretty much everyone cratered around him. K-Lowe went big game hunting for Chara but more bucks and less miles favored Boston.

Looking ahead, I think Lowe's going to deal for top talent versus through free agency. He might get support types guys but I'm not sure they will get a big gun via free agency. But who knows? We'll all have to wait to see.
 

Gusher

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Luongo WAS traded. All the players I mentioned as potential trades were either traded in another deal or had less value than Pronger. Pronger is a superstar signed at a great price. He had huge trade value.

Apparently the value wasn't that huge or Lowe would have been getting offers for Pronger that knocked his socks off.

My point was that lots of Oiler fans seem to think the Oilers can get any player in the NHL that had just been traded. People think the Oilers could easily have traded for Luongo. IF it was that easy he would probably be an Oiler. NOT every player dealt has a chance to get traded to Edmonton before he goes to another team. Some of you people make it seem that they do.
 
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