#Melnykout/The Melnyk problem

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
16,130
9,701
Here we go again with blaming a business' failures on its customers. I guess the reason Blockbuster is no longer around anymore isn't because it failed to offer a good product to customers, but instead it is because movie fans are bad fans.

that's a bad example. the business blockbuster was in collapsed

guys here can go back and forth on bad fans / bad owner creating disengagement ... it's a chicken and egg thing

ticket prices are comparatively low

attendance is comparatively low

those two together do impact the budget.
 

Sensung

Registered User
Oct 3, 2017
6,101
3,357
that's a bad example. the business blockbuster was in collapsed

guys here can go back and forth on bad fans / bad owner creating disengagement ... it's a chicken and egg thing

ticket prices are comparatively low

attendance is comparatively low

those two together do impact the budget.
The budget is not tied to revenues.

The Sens had positive operating revenue and got an expansion windfall last season. The budget did NOT increase.

For most of the decade, the Sens have had positive operating revenue and yet we continue to operate at a budget below revenues.

Please stop spreading this myth.
 
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Heady Topper

Registered User
Apr 11, 2018
173
276
If EK leaves, its not because Ottawa is a small market team, we have more than enough fan base as shown in the past to support the team. It clearly illustrates that Ottawa Fans are horrible fans at supporting their team. Don't buy tickets, then the team can not afford to sign players of EK status. Simple.

No it's strictly because of the owner. Same as Alfie. Both love the fans and the fans love them back. However, both the fans and those players don't like the owner. Simple.
 
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Pierre from Orleans

Registered User
May 9, 2007
26,394
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If EK leaves, its not because Ottawa is a small market team, we have more than enough fan base as shown in the past to support the team. It clearly illustrates that Ottawa Fans are horrible fans at supporting their team. Don't buy tickets, then the team can not afford to sign players of EK status. Simple.
You are obviously generalizing the issue. It runs much deeper than that and the issues have been beaten to death.
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
16,130
9,701
The budget is not tied to revenues.

The Sens had positive operating revenue and got an expansion windfall last season. The budget did NOT increase.

For most of the decade, the Sens have had positive operating revenue and yet we continue to operate at a budget below revenues.

Please stop spreading this myth.

you'd have to a child like understanding of business or be pretty obtuse to not understand that there is a correlation in business between revenues and expenses.
 
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Wondercarrot

By The Power of Canadian Tire Centre
Jul 2, 2002
8,153
4,000
If EK leaves, its not because Ottawa is a small market team, we have more than enough fan base as shown in the past to support the team. It clearly illustrates that Ottawa Fans are horrible fans at supporting their team. Don't buy tickets, then the team can not afford to sign players of EK status. Simple.

lol
thats right we do have more than enough fans (which is why we had been mid-league in attendance until a couple years ago), makes you wonder why they havent gone to games and arent renewing their season tickets this year. It clearly illustrates that the Ottawa owner is a despised buffoon who has driven fans away.
Simple.
 
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Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,854
31,068
If EK leaves, its not because Ottawa is a small market team, we have more than enough fan base as shown in the past to support the team. It clearly illustrates that Ottawa Fans are horrible fans at supporting their team. Don't buy tickets, then the team can not afford to sign players of EK status. Simple.
So, our fanbase was good enough in the past to prove the market's viability, but now they aren't? What changed?
 
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Sensung

Registered User
Oct 3, 2017
6,101
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you'd have to a child like understanding of business or be pretty obtuse to not understand that there is a correlation in business between revenues and expenses.
We are discussing the Sens player budget and ticket revenue. In each case, it is only one aspect of revenue and expenses.

For the Sens, this owner has made it clear by his actions that revenues are not directly tied to his player budget.
 
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Heady Topper

Registered User
Apr 11, 2018
173
276
So, our fanbase was good enough in the past to prove the market's viability, but now they aren't? What changed?

Nothing's changed. Just a few posters trying to keep false claims alive. [mod]
 
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Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,855
9,793
Montreal, Canada
If EK leaves, its not because Ottawa is a small market team, we have more than enough fan base as shown in the past to support the team. It clearly illustrates that Ottawa Fans are horrible fans at supporting their team. Don't buy tickets, then the team can not afford to sign players of EK status. Simple.

I don’t necessarily agree. The Ottawa area is not super populated to begin with. After that, how many % of that population cares enough about hockey to buy tickets or just watch most games? Here in Montreal it’s not as high as people think and it’s the « hockey Mecca » so I imagine it’s the same in Ottawa

Finally, out of that hockey population, how many are Habs or Leafs fans?

Really, it’s not easy for the Sens to have a team in Ottawa
 

YouGotAStuGoing

Registered User
Mar 26, 2010
19,355
4,932
Ottawa, Ontario
I don’t necessarily agree. The Ottawa area is not super populated to begin with. After that, how many % of that population cares enough about hockey to buy tickets or just watch most games? Here in Montreal it’s not as high as people think and it’s the « hockey Mecca » so I imagine it’s the same in Ottawa

Finally, out of that hockey population, how many are Habs or Leafs fans?

Really, it’s not easy for the Sens to have a team in Ottawa
You're right about it not being easy, but I'm not sure how much that applies here. It's not like we don't have the fans or the people with disposable income. We've been out to support the team in droves in both good years and bad.
 

BatherSeason

Registered User
Jun 16, 2009
6,640
3,702
Gatineau
So, our fanbase was good enough in the past to prove the market's viability, but now they aren't? What changed?

Alfie was forced out twice, best player in the history of the franchise being sold, Methot sold, Ceci glorified, boring style of hockey, lots has changed.
 

Wondercarrot

By The Power of Canadian Tire Centre
Jul 2, 2002
8,153
4,000
So the NHL has a low interest credit pool available to franchises, has anyone else heard that the Sens have maxed out there borrowing ability with the league?
that would be something given the debt already on the team...it implies and additional $100 million in debt.
helps explain why he has difficulty getting financing/re-financing

"NHL teams can borrow up to $100 million from the credit facility, which is backed by national media contracts. That amount means that for now, if teams were to borrow to the maximum amount, no more than three of the NHL’s seven Canadian teams could borrow from the credit facility."
NHL welcomes Canadian teams to loan pool
 

BatherSeason

Registered User
Jun 16, 2009
6,640
3,702
Gatineau
I don’t necessarily agree. The Ottawa area is not super populated to begin with. After that, how many % of that population cares enough about hockey to buy tickets or just watch most games? Here in Montreal it’s not as high as people think and it’s the « hockey Mecca » so I imagine it’s the same in Ottawa

Finally, out of that hockey population, how many are Habs or Leafs fans?

Really, it’s not easy for the Sens to have a team in Ottawa

Spend the money to sell the team to the public. Marketing, marketing, marketing. Lots of Habs fans in Gatineau and zero initiative shown by the Ottawa Senators organization to try to recruit new fans in Quebec. Same things happen in the valley. Any community events in Perth, or Smith Falls?? Mostly Leaf fans out there, as far as I know, not much reaching out going on from the Ottawa Senators. It really is unfortunate. The only "outreach" activity the Ottawa Senators produce is the Canadian Tire pre-season event, which was stripped down quite a bit this year from last. It is also a very underwhelming event.

The organization relies on results to sell tickets, because Melnyk won't spend the money to properly market the team. Unfortunately, aside from the fortunate run the ECF, the team has been content just to scrape its way into the playoffs, which isn't something that fans want.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,854
31,068
Alfie was forced out twice, best player in the history of the franchise being sold, Methot sold, Ceci glorified, boring style of hockey, lots has changed.
Methot wasn't really sold, we just didn't buy him back. Ceci being glorified (really? I haven't seen anyone really do that, but ok) is no different than any other countless number of divisive players that some fans like and others hate.

I really don't think the on ice decisions are the real culprit here. If you were to get into the alleged decision to make decisions based off of short turn financial gain over long term goals; for example, salary in = to salary out for Heatley and Spezza trades, trading a pick for retaining on Hemsky, trading picks to pay Brassard's bonus, trading a pick to get Colorado to take Hammond, then I'd maybe agree, but we've been doing that kind of stuff for a while now, so it hasn't so much changed, though you might be able to argue that the trend has gone on so long that people are finally fed up.

I'd argue it's less that something changed, and more that there is only so much abuse that can be taken, but I'd also say that a guy like Murray was instrumental in shifting the focus, and did a far better job of controlling the message.

The reality is there are a lot of factors leading to the attendance drops, lack of trust that the team is doing all it can to build a contender, and a very poor job by the team of managing expectations to align with the expected results (or I guess really overestimating expected results and setting fan expectations in line with unrealistic standards).
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,854
31,068
So the NHL has a low interest credit pool available to franchises, has anyone else heard that the Sens have maxed out there borrowing ability with the league?
that would be something given the debt already on the team...it implies and additional $100 million in debt.
helps explain why he has difficulty getting financing/re-financing

"NHL teams can borrow up to $100 million from the credit facility, which is backed by national media contracts. That amount means that for now, if teams were to borrow to the maximum amount, no more than three of the NHL’s seven Canadian teams could borrow from the credit facility."
NHL welcomes Canadian teams to loan pool

I was never able to find confirmation that the fixed the tax issues with that, good to know Canadian teams have been able to do so for the last 2 years.

Back when it was launched, teams could get loans at 2%. I doubt though that the team would have an additional 100 mil with the league on top of the ~150 estimated loans they were seeking when this wasn't available. I'd suggest they'd have moved as much over to the league credit facility once available, rather than just take out additional loans, and currently have the same grand total in financing as before, or thereabouts.
 
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Upgrayedd

Earn'em and Burn'em
Oct 14, 2010
5,306
1,610
Ottawa
you'd have to a child like understanding of business or be pretty obtuse to not understand that there is a correlation in business between revenues and expenses.

I would argue the same could be said for someone who believes they are typically always tied to one another as well and are mutually exclusive, which has been proven time and time again to be false in the business world and certainly in cases where firms hold multiple independently operating public companies.
 

Sensung

Registered User
Oct 3, 2017
6,101
3,357
1 bad year after a great season and "some of the fan base" has gone to hell.

I'm here through thick & thin....
I agree.

Far too small a percentage of the fanbase is calling out this owner and demanding change. We need to get all fans doing their part.
 

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