Post-Game Talk: Meaningless game in November

[IcedCapp]

Again, and I've said it multiple times, I'm fine with giving him more of a look...talk about arguing with my own imagination. I'm simply saying that Sill is, at best, a longshot to upgrade the 4th line, and unless Shero gets serious about getting real players on the 4th line instead of Adams or Glass or Pyatt or, yes, Sill, this is going to be a thin team that has 2 lines that other coaches will exploit the hell out of in the playoffs.

then what's the problem?

Literally no one has said that he's the savior to the Penguins bottom-6. Merely that him playing 8 minutes a game is a better option than Glass and Adams at 12+ minutes a game.

 

[MrBrightside]

That's just it, the fact that he's a 4th liner in the AHL, yet he's still a better option than Glass and Adams is my point. Nobody once claimed Sill to be some sort of halfway decent player. He's just a better player and more effective than Glass or Adams.

Speed is the name of the game in today's NHL. Sill isn't Bure, but he's a better skater and faster than either of the aforementioned dummies.

But getting Bylsma to stray from his tried and true (lol) formula of Gladams is like trying to have someone quit heroin cold turkey. It's either going to kill him or it'll last all of 10 minutes.

And I agree that the value of Sill may be that Bylsma plays him less...it would be akin to why the Pirates should have dumped Barmes to keep Hurdle from overusing him. But really, I'd rather get guys who can actually play instead of simply picking the least of several evils.

 

[MrBrightside]

then what's the problem?

Literally no one has said that he's the savior to the Penguins bottom-6. Merely that him playing 8 minutes a game is a better option than Glass and Adams at 12+ minutes a game.

That may or may not be true, but with a 16-point lead and the fact that we know that Adams and Glass are useless, taking a look makes since. To the extent I have a "problem" with what's being said is that some seem to assume that he would be an upgrade and solve one of the 4th line issues. I don't think he will.

 

[IcedCapp]

That may or may not be true, but with a 16-point lead and the fact that we know that Adams and Glass are useless, taking a look makes since. To the extent I have a "problem" with what's being said is that some seem to assume that he would be an upgrade and solve one of the 4th line issues. I don't think he will.

better to find out now, while they have that 16-point lead. This team's refusal to inject new blood and hunger into the most fungible positions is maddening.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

And I agree that the value of Sill may be that Bylsma plays him less...it would be akin to why the Pirates should have dumped Barmes to keep Hurdle from overusing him. But really, I'd rather get guys who can actually play instead of simply picking the least of several evils.

Of course, we all would. The problem is, the entire bottom six needs a reshuffling. That's an offseason job, and we're probably going to have to make due with what we've got. We've got a 4th line of Z - Vitale - Sill, and while it's not going to win us any games, I think it'll lose us a Hell of a lot less than our current option of Gladams.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Again, and I've said it multiple times, I'm fine with giving him more of a look...talk about arguing with my own imagination. I'm simply saying that Sill is, at best, a longshot to upgrade the 4th line, and unless Shero gets serious about getting real players on the 4th line instead of Adams or Glass or Pyatt or, yes, Sill, this is going to be a thin team that has 2 lines that other coaches will exploit the hell out of in the playoffs.

we can win with Vitale - Megna and a plug as our 4th line. Its not ideal, but its not the end of the world either. Granted, I think we'll probably need Megna on the third line. And he likely won't play there either.

It doesn't really matter though, because Glass and Adams will be on that line.

 

[MrBrightside]

we can win with Vitale - Megna and a plug as our 4th line. Its not ideal, but its not the end of the world either.

It doesn't really matter though, because Glass and Adams will be on that line.

I completely agree. Hell, emulate the Cup team that had Dupuis and Satan on the 4th line and have a line that is faster and more skilled than the lines they are facing rather than throwing grinders out there because the book says you're supposed to and because Bylsma loves them. But I agree, it's not going to happen.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I completely agree. Hell, emulate the Cup team that had Dupuis and Satan on the 4th line and have a line that is faster and more skilled than the lines they are facing rather than throwing grinders out there because the book says you're supposed to and because Bylsma loves them. But I agree, it's not going to happen.

Gibbons - Vitale - Megna would be a fun line to watch.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If there is one thing I will absolutely give Disco credit for, its his ability to coach through injuries in the regular season.

What injuries did we have in the 2010, 2012 or 2013 playoffs?

I place the blame for 2010 and 2012 primarily on Fleury.

In 2013 we made the ECF, got some bad breaks early, and got beat by a great team. DB could have made some obvious personnel changes and deserves his share of the blame for not being more flexible when we struggled, but no more than our stars.

 

[IcedCapp]

Gibbons - Vitale - Megna would be a fun line to watch.

they could also get free admission to a petting zoo...

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

If we're going away from the gritty type of 4th line (and I'm not sure we should, we're already too easy to play against forecheck/hitting-wise) I wouldn't mind a Megna - Vitale - Gibbons 4th line. Gas the opposition and then throw out Sid or Geno? Yes, please.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I place the blame for 2010 and 2012 primarily on Fleury. His GAA and SV% after we went up 3-1 in the Tampa series was putrid, and we don't need to go over the Philly debacle.

In 2013 we made the ECF, got some bad breaks early, and got beat by a great team. DB could have made some obvious personnel changes and deserves his share of the blame for not being more flexible when we struggled, but no more than our stars.

Two years in a row our entire team unraveled. Philly was a complete embarrassment to a man. Boston wasn't as bad, but it was still not good. We got sucked in to playing Bruins hockey a year after getting sucked in to playing Flyers hockey.

You can't fire all of the players.

 

[Ogrezilla]

they could also get free admission to a petting zoo...

 

[Ogrezilla]

If we're going away from the gritty type of 4th line (and I'm not sure we should, we're already too easy to play against forecheck/hitting-wise) I wouldn't mind a Megna - Vitale - Gibbons 4th line. Gas the opposition and then throw out Sid or Geno? Yes, please.

my thing is, our "gritty" 4th liners are mostly terrible at hockey. Vitale, Megna and Gibbons are all much better players than any of the grinders we have. At least if Megna and Gibbons can keep up the play they've had so far this year, which is obviously not a guarantee.

Vitale is plenty gritty. Megna will go to the net and fight for pucks all over the ice even if he's not going to be laying people out or dropping the gloves. Gibbons, well ya Gibbons is not gritty. But he's fast and has actual talent.

 

[dueling mullets]

You realize you've been, for the most part, arguing against your own imagination?

No one is saying Sill is great. We are saying that 17 games probably isn't a big enough sample size (though you're the Advanced Stat Expert, so you tell me: is 17 games a career-defining sample size?) and that Glass and Adams have been significantly worse over a much larger sample size.

And anyhow, Glass and Adams have played on all 4 lines this year. Adams has played the entire season. Glass has played 30 games.

Glass has been on the ice for 6 goals for and 11 goals against.

Adams has been on the ice for 7 goals for and 18 goals against.

Sill has been on the ice for 0 goals for and 6 goals against.

When you put it in that context, it probably doesn't seem quite as damning as your context made it seem.

How many of the goals that Sill was on the ice for also had Glass or Adams on the ice as well? I'd bet at least 5.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Two years in a row our entire team unraveled. Philly was a complete embarrassment to a man. Boston wasn't as bad, but it was still not good. We got sucked in to playing Bruins hockey a year after getting sucked in to playing Flyers hockey.

You can't fire all of the players.

The struggles we had were completely different though.

I'm not suggesting firing all the players, or the coach. I think the Pens do a lot more good than bad, that we wouldn't be better off with any other available coach, and that the team needs tweaks, not overhauls.

Firing Bylsma would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and it's more likely we get in a post-Boudreau Capitals situation than find some new level with a different coach, IMO.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

my thing is, our "gritty" 4th liners are mostly terrible at hockey. Vitale, Megna and Gibbons are all much better players than any of the grinders we have. At least if Megna and Gibbons can keep up the play they've had so far this year, which is obviously not a guarantee.

The biggest issue might actually be that our gritty 4th liners aren't actually gritty and they're largely bad at hockey. Nothing gets brought to the table.

Sill - Vitale - Engelland Grittier and just better than Gladams and their victim.
Gibbons - Vitale - Megna Faster and just better than Gladams and their victim.

The 4th line needs an identity that the players are capable of performing more than anything.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The struggles we had were completely different though.

I'm not suggesting firing all the players, or the coach. I think the Pens do a lot more good than bad, that we wouldn't be better off with any other available coach, and that the team needs tweaks, not overhauls.

Firing Bylsma would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and it's more likely we get in a post-Boudreau Capitals situation than find some new level with a different coach, IMO.

Were they? We played undisciplined hockey, became obviously upset and let our emotions affect our play, and played right into the other team's style of play both years.

 

[IcedCapp]

How many of the goals that Sill was on the ice for also had Glass or Adams on the ice as well? I'd bet at least 5.

yea, I dunno. It feels like a safe bet that at least one of them was on the ice for a majority of them.

 

[dueling mullets]

Were they? We played undisciplined hockey and played right into the other team's style of play both years.

Ding ding ding. If the past two years' playoff problems are different things, then a blue sky today and a blue sky tomorrow are two different things.

 

[dueling mullets]

yea, I dunno. It feels like a safe bet that at least one of them was on the ice for a majority of them.

My thoughts exactly. I can't stand people using advanced metrics (zone starts, GAA, GF) for comparing Sill and Gladams. They're linemates...

 

[Shady Machine]

The struggles we had were completely different though.

I'm not suggesting firing all the players, or the coach. I think the Pens do a lot more good than bad, that we wouldn't be better off with any other available coach, and that the team needs tweaks, not overhauls.

Firing Bylsma would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and it's more likely we get in a post-Boudreau Capitals situation than find some new level with a different coach, IMO.

The struggles were completely different because the opponent was completely different. What was consistent was the lack of adjustments or an "answer" for the problem from Bylsma. When "Penguins hockey" doesn't work and the team become unraveled, he is completely clueless (or seems to be).

 

[IcedCapp]

My thoughts exactly. I can't stand people using advanced metrics (zone starts, GAA, GF) for comparing Sill and Gladams. They're linemates...

That, and, like I said earlier, 17 games is really not enough to judge a player by, conventional, advanced, whatever stats. You need more games.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Were they? We played undisciplined hockey and played right into the other team's style of game both years.

Yes, they were. The series against the Flyers was a mess from the very beginning. The Pens played a much better series against the Bruins - a poor 3rd period in Game 1 and a godawful Game 2 were their undoing.

The Boston series wasn't "playing into the other team's style of play". It was simply tight, playoff hockey.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yes, they were. The series against the Flyers was a mess from the very beginning. The Pens played a much better series against the Bruins - a poor 3rd period in Game 1 and a godawful Game 2 were their undoing.

The Boston series wasn't "playing into the other team's style of play". It was simply tight, playoff hockey.

I disagree. We scored 2 goals in 4 games. We played more than 4 bad periods of hockey.