Matthews/Marner vs Toews/Kane

[LeafFever]

Where have I heard that before? Could it be Edmonton?

Edmonton relied on 1st overalls and could not draft after the first round. The Leafs are not in the same situation at all.
And Edmonton looks fine to me.

 

[Sundinisagod]

But you admit that at least two guys with no future are taking roster spots over young players on the leafs, then?

We don't have two NHL ready d prospects toiling in the minors atm.

 

[JaegerDice]

Yes.
But surely you agree you can't have too many rookies, and the Leafs already have the most.
And Richard Panik is a scrub who's having a fluke start to the season. To criticize Lou for that trade is silly.

I don't care about the trade. Both teams thought it was a minor league deal, Panik just showed well and Q gets fixated on guys.

I also don't think Panik is a scrub. I think he's a good, not great player who yes, is riding an unsustainably high shooting percentage right now.

 

[piteus]

Edmonton relied on 1st overalls and could not draft after the first round. The Leafs are not in the same situation at all.
And Edmonton looks fine to me.

Of course Edmonton looks fine to you. 1992 looks much better than 1967.

Potential is well ... just potential. If you don't believe me, just ask Tampa Bay and Washington. Heck, the Penguins got a ton of flak even with ONE Cup with Crosby ... until last year.

Winning the Cup isn't that easy, let alone THREE. When you experience a legitimate playoff run, you'll realize it too. Prove that you can turn that potential into actual performance. Until then, I remain skeptical (and I like Auston). And you should too coming from Toronto.

 

[HarrisonFord]

I don't care about the trade. Both teams thought it was a minor league deal, Panik just showed well and Q gets fixated on guys.

I also don't think Panik is a scrub. I think he's a good, not great player who yes, is riding an unsustainably high shooting percentage right now.

Panik has always been a "has the tools, not the toolbox" type of player. Could it be that he's finally put it all together? Possibly. Though I think it's more likely that he's just having an unsustainably good stretch to start the season and he'll fall back to earth

 

[piteus]

Panik has always been a "has the tools, not the toolbox" type of player. Could it be that he's finally put it all together? Possibly. Though I think it's more likely that he's just having an unsustainably good stretch to start the season and he'll fall back to earth

Of course it's not sustainable. But I think it's realistic that he score 20-25 goals this year ... which is more reflective of his talent.

 

[HarrisonFord]

Of course Edmonton looks fine to you. 1992 looks much better than 1967.

Potential is well ... just potential. If you don't believe me, just ask Tampa Bay and Washington. Heck, the Penguins got a ton of flak even with ONE Cup with Crosby ... until last year.

Winning the Cup isn't that easy, let alone THREE. When you experience a legitimate playoff run, you'll realize it too. Prove that you can turn that potential into actual performance. Until then, I remain skeptical (and I like Auston). And you should too coming from Toronto.

There's a big difference between Toronto and Edmonton so far. Before McDavid, despite all the high powered offensive weapons that they had, they were in the bottom 5 in the league in terms of GF/GP. That's because they had consistently bottom 5ish possession numbers. Their coaching and system was as big of an issue as anything. The Leafs, on the other hand, have top 10ish possession numbers and currently are 6th in GF/GP and are 4th in terms of GF/60 at ES.

 

[HarrisonFord]

Of course it's not sustainable. But I think it's realistic that he score 20-25 goals this year ... which is more reflective of his talent.

It could happen, for sure. I'd bed on that happening over him not hitting 20. Though I will say I think if he hits 20-25, that's going to be a career high for him, and he slips back to a 10-15 guy going forward.

 

[piteus]

There's a big difference between Toronto and Edmonton so far. Before McDavid, despite all the high powered offensive weapons that they had, they were in the bottom 5 in the league in terms of GF/GP. That's because they had consistently bottom 5ish possession numbers. Their coaching and system was as big of an issue as anything. The Leafs, on the other hand, have top 10ish possession numbers and currently are 6th in GF/GP and are 4th in terms of GF/60 at ES.

And I like Babcock. He knows how to build a team. But you can understand why I like to make fun of the fans of the foliole. After 5 games, they are proclaiming Matthews and Marner as the new Toews and Kane. Seriously, take a step back and listen how silly that sounds. It's not easy what Toews and Kane did ... WITHOUT a superstar goalie.

 

[HarrisonFord]

And I like Babcock. He knows how to build a team. But you can understand why I like to make fun of the fans of the foliole. After 5 games, they are proclaiming Matthews and Marner as the new Toews and Kane. Seriously, take a step back and listen how silly that sounds. It's not easy what Toews and Kane did ... WITHOUT a superstar goalie.

I think that all that the Marner/Matthews vs. Kane/Toews is looking at similar players stylistically and trying to make comparables. Honestly, you can see some stylistic similarities throughout the two lineups. Kane/Marner, Matthews/Toews, Gardiner/Hjalmarsson, Rielly/Keith, Zaitsev/Seabrook, Nylander/Hossa. Now, obviously the Leaf players aren't even close to the Hawks guys yet, but you can see that there's a similar play style between a lot of the guys. What it shows to me is the mold that the Leaf management is trying to make for their roster.

Personally, I don't think Marner hits Kane level. I do think Matthews can hit Toews level though. Honestly, it could be as early as next season. He's not a superstar yet, but if you watch his game, you can't deny that the talent is there to reach superstar level eventually - and sooner rather than later.

 

[piteus]

I think that all that the Marner/Matthews vs. Kane/Toews is looking at similar players stylistically and trying to make comparables. Honestly, you can see some stylistic similarities throughout the two lineups. Kane/Marner, Matthews/Toews, Gardiner/Hjalmarsson, Rielly/Keith, Zaitsev/Seabrook, Nylander/Hossa. Now, obviously the Leaf players aren't even close to the Hawks guys yet, but you can see that there's a similar play style between a lot of the guys. What it shows to me is the mold that the Leaf management is trying to make for their roster.

Personally, I don't think Marner hits Kane level. I do think Matthews can hit Toews level though. Honestly, it could be as early as next season. He's not a superstar yet, but if you watch his game, you can't deny that the talent is there to reach superstar level eventually - and sooner rather than later.

I think Matthews is the player the Leafs build around. It's obvious he has a special talent. The other guys ... you have to wait and see. Even with Patrick Kane, there were so many issues ... Blackhawk fans / mgmt. weren't all sold on him until 2014. (and this had nothing to do with his off the ice issues). It's so easy to compare, it's almost impossible to duplicate. Try comparing your players to Tampa Bay before you compare them to a THREE time Stanley Cup Champion. This why so many young players fail in Toronto. Unrealistic expectations ultimately destroys their confidence.

 

[leafsfan1234]

Matthews and Marner/Nylander can easily reach Kane/Toews level, they aren't even close to being the best duo of this decade. The real question of whether or not Toronto will be able to have Chicago-like success is if our other prospects are able to reach the level of guys like Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Leddy, Byfuglien, Ladd, Keith, Sharp, Hossa, Campbell, etc. Hawks have had an endless supply of great players to their organization and that's been the real key to their success.

 

[authentic]

I think Matthews is the player the Leafs build around. It's obvious he has a special talent. The other guys ... you have to wait and see. Even with Patrick Kane, there were so many issues ... Blackhawk fans / mgmt. weren't all sold on him until 2014. (and this had nothing to do with his off the ice issues). It's so easy to compare, it's almost impossible to duplicate. Try comparing your players to Tampa Bay before you compare them to a THREE time Stanley Cup Champion. This why so many young players fail in Toronto. Unrealistic expectations ultimately destroys their confidence.

They weren't sold on a consistent, nearly or above point per game player with a Conn Smythe trophy? Interesting.

 

[piteus]

Matthews and Marner/Nylander can easily reach Kane/Toews level, they aren't even close to being the best duo of this decade. The real question of whether or not Toronto will be able to have Chicago-like success is if our other prospects are able to reach the level of guys like Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Leddy, Byfuglien, Ladd, Keith, Sharp, Hossa, Campbell, etc. Hawks have had an endless supply of great players to their organization and that's been the real key to their success.

Well, if Matthews, Marner and Nylander are easily going to reach Kane/Toews level ... you should start planning for numerous parades.

 

[authentic]

Matthews and Marner/Nylander can easily reach Kane/Toews level, they aren't even close to being the best duo of this decade. The real question of whether or not Toronto will be able to have Chicago-like success is if our other prospects are able to reach the level of guys like Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Leddy, Byfuglien, Ladd, Keith, Sharp, Hossa, Campbell, etc. Hawks have had an endless supply of great players to their organization and that's been the real key to their success.

Yeah exactly. They're not so hot of a team with Keith, Toews, Kane and even another elite player now in Panarin... why is that? Depth would be the answer.

 

[leafsfan1234]

Well, if Matthews, Marner and Nylander are easily going to reach Kane/Toews level ... you should start planning for numerous parades.

Believe me I will as long as Rielly also becomes Keith, and Zaitsev becomes Seabrook, and Kapanen become Hossa, and Nielsen becomes Hjalmarsson, and Dermott becomes Leddy, and Korshkov becomes Byfuglien, etc etc.

 

[LeafFever]

Matthews and Marner/Nylander can easily reach Kane/Toews level, they aren't even close to being the best duo of this decade. The real question of whether or not Toronto will be able to have Chicago-like success is if our other prospects are able to reach the level of guys like Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Leddy, Byfuglien, Ladd, Keith, Sharp, Hossa, Campbell, etc. Hawks have had an endless supply of great players to their organization and that's been the real key to their success.

Some of those players were traded for and signed as UFA's.

 

[Diatomic]

Matthews can reach toews level (even beyond) but Marner idk.. I don't think Marner will ever win the art Ross or score 100pts like kane has.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

Marner and Matthews are two very talented players, and I know that were going to have a ton of success with them moving forward.

Also, I will not forget about Nylander, he is an absolute beast so far.

 

[piteus]

They weren't sold on a consistent, nearly or above point per game player with a Conn Smythe trophy? Interesting.

Yeah ... trade rumors are circling around Kane constantly. Heck, it was over this board too. For someone comparing Matthews, Marner, and Nylander to Kane ... you don't know much about him.

 

[The Podium]

Of course it's not sustainable. But I think it's realistic that he score 20-25 goals this year ... which is more reflective of his talent.

Ya Panik can easily score that. Problem with Panik was never his ability to score, it was his ability to do anything else. He found a nice niche in Chicago, just being the trigger man to all that talent around him.

 

[authentic]

Yeah ... trade rumors are circling around Kane constantly. Heck, it was over this board too. For someone comparing Matthews, Marner, and Nylander to Kane ... you don't know much about him.

I never even compared them to Kane, I said they're going to be elite players if not already. Oh no trade rumors, Gretzky was actually traded. Kane was an elite player before 2014... is there something you're not getting here?

 

[jford]

Yeah ... trade rumors are circling around Kane constantly. Heck, it was over this board too. For someone comparing Matthews, Marner, and Nylander to Kane ... you don't know much about him.

Your argument is trade rumors involving Kane "had nothing to do with his off the ice issues" and that Stan Bowman wasn't sold on him until 2014?

That's highly arguable. He might have been traded due to the off ice issues - most of the serious trade rumors were after his Madison mess - but for his relationship with Bowman. If there's one single reason Kane is still in Chicago after his numerous off ice issues, Stan Bowman is it.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Edmonton relied on 1st overalls and could not draft after the first round. The Leafs are not in the same situation at all.
And Edmonton looks fine to me.

Yeah.
I wish people would stop this. There is NO comparison.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Of course it's not sustainable. But I think it's realistic that he score 20-25 goals this year ... which is more reflective of his talent.

Never done it, not even close.

Kulemin and Clarkson had big seasons too.